Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 years

[MultiMopars]

A few comments regarding the last few posts here.

First of all Mopars from 1969-up all had the complete V.I.N. on the fender tag. However, the fender tag is NOT the LEGAL identifyer of the the vehicle. Neither are the "hidden numbers" although they are used to help identify stolen cars that have had V.I.N. plates switched to hide the true identity. ONLY the title and V.I.N. plate are true original LEGAL identifiers.

Fender tags are reproduced often for these cars just as POPs are for GM products. A Mopar fender tag has no stamping or decal on it indicating that Chrysler Corp. even MADE it. It is simply a plain metal tag with a bunch of numbers stamped in it. Therefore, there is nothing illegal about having it reproduced or changed to reflect something other than what it was originally.

However, if a seller represents a car upon sale to have the original fender tag and states that it and the car are correct in the relationship of what it shows, and a new buyer discovers and can prove this not to be true, then they can sue the seller for mis-representation. This would be a CIVIL matter not a CRIMINAL matter that would NOT involve anything to do with V.I.N. tampering.

Regarding the OK. law concerning this, I would like to know if it has ever been tested. I would think that there is a strong possibility that the law could be overturned. The problem with all of this is that it takes PILES of money to determine ANY of this, and most people are not willing to spend it.

The real tragity of this cars story is that the V.I.N. plate was never changed with altered numbers from the way the car left the factory and simply slipped through the crack of the legal system that SHOULD have caught this years ago. Shame on the government, state, or federal for not having a simple shared datedbase with ALL reported stolen cars by V.I.N. If this was in place the first time someone tried to register it, it would have been discovered.

My rule when buying an old Mopar is to value the car by the V.I.N. which indicates the model, engine, year and assembly plant to determine what the car actually is. This does not identify the trans. but there are telltales to determine this. As for the options, I value them based on the cost of the parts and installation if they are present on the car. If there is some other BELIEVEABLE documentation then that is simply a bonus. They are 40 year old cars. Things got changed early on with no intentions of what we today feel are critical points in determining their value, I don't buy into or get caught up in it. To each their own.

[buddy whittington]

cars come with option tags for a reason. otherwise mfg's would not spend the time and money to install them in the first place. the whole reason for my intrest in these post was that people are paying big money for cars that claim to have origional tags, paperwork and documentation. even though i agree with you that it really does not matter to me, the truth is that many buyers are not experts and the experts that make theese claims are selling snake oil . otherwise to knowingly/willfully change the tags and sell a car based on this representation would be fraud, and that is no civil matter.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
cars come with option tags for a reason . otherwise mfg's would not spend the time and money to install them in the first place. the whole reason for my intrest in these post was that people are paying big money for cars that claim to have origional tags, paperwork and documentation. even though i agree with you that it really does not matter to me, the truth is that many buyers are not experts and the experts that make theese claims are selling snake oil . otherwise to knowingly/willfully change the tags and sell a car based on this representation would be fraud, and that is no civil matter .

[/ QUOTE ]

Mopar fender tags are not there for the buyer/customer/owners. They are there for internal purposes of the factory during assembly time. Buyers of new cars look at the window sticker for the equipment of the car, not raising the hood and trying to decode a fender tag to know what it had for equipment, not to mention it had a limited amount of info compared to all the car typically had. It is only the hobby that has decided to assign interest in the fender tag. Often times they are lost during repaints or body damage. People sometimes have them reproduced when missing. Sometimes when people restore these cars they add factory options for their own enjoyment and preference and add these options to the fender tag when repoed. It is seldom done to deceive a future buyer. Any future buyer that is educated enough to decode the fender tag and care if the car is true to the tag owes it to themselves to question the seller about it. If the seller lies about it, and that is later PROVEN, they MAY have some type of grounds for a law suite.

Mis-representation or deception regarding possible differences in how a car was equipped, painted, etc. is different than criminal fraud. It is not like changing a V.I.N. that could completely change the model and engine of the car. I doubt that you would have plausibe grounds to charge criminal fraud in this type of case.

[buddy whittington]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cars come with option tags for a reason . otherwise mfg's would not spend the time and money to install them in the first place. the whole reason for my intrest in these post was that people are paying big money for cars that claim to have origional tags, paperwork and documentation. even though i agree with you that it really does not matter to me, the truth is that many buyers are not experts and the experts that make theese claims are selling snake oil . otherwise to knowingly/willfully change the tags and sell a car based on this representation would be fraud, and that is no civil matter .

[/ QUOTE ]

Mopar fender tags are not there for the buyer/customer/owners. They are there for internal purposes of the factory during assembly time. Buyers of new cars look at the window sticker for the equipment of the car, not raising the hood and trying to decode a fender tag to know what it had for equipment, not to mention it had a limited amount of info compared to all the car typically had. It is only the hobby that has decided to assign interest in the fender tag. Often times they are lost during repaints or body damage. People sometimes have them reproduced when missing. Sometimes when people restore these cars they add factory options for their own enjoyment and preference and add these options to the fender tag when repoed. It is seldom done to deceive a future buyer. Any future buyer that is educated enough to decode the fender tag and care if the car is true to the tag owes it to themselves to question the seller about it. If the seller lies about it, and that is later PROVEN, they MAY have some type of grounds for a law suite.

Mis-representation or deception regarding possible differences in how a car was equipped, painted, etc. is different than criminal fraud. It is not like changing a V.I.N. that could completely change the model and engine of the car. I doubt that you would have plausibe grounds to charge criminal fraud in this type of case.

[/ QUOTE ]there are 9 legal requirements to demonstrait fraud look em up. if you changed the tag that may be fine.. but change the tag and represent it as true and factual to obtain a sale will constitute a fraud. vin tampering is a felony all of it's own.. that's all i was trying to say..