Bye Bye To The American V-8...

[442w30]

So, Mike, how is this proposal different from any previous CAFE proposal?

The truth is that performance cars are here to stay. To dishonestly (figuratively, mind you) suggest that the world is going to end because of a proposal that is par for the course keeps our minds of the really important stuff, like a status quo in the financial sector that has yet to change, a crumbling auto industry being helped by a bumbling government, and the lack of preparedness our country finds itself in to compete globally against countries that are carrying a lot more weight than they had before. I'm really interested in seeing the future and seeing how things end up. Certainly they can't be any worse than the direction we were headed.

[70 copo]

We have been there. same policies that gave us the 55MPH Speed limit and 165 HP V8's. Not a future I want.

Performance is how you define it. If you want a smart car with a turbocharger you will like the future alot and you will be in the minority.

Brand loyality shifts have polarized within the auto industry.

IMO... People who buy GM want what GM does best-an American V-8. HP and torque for towing and power for performance.

GM has tried to gain back market segment in cars from the imports for years by trying to be "like an import", while abandoning its core market for car buyers. Discontinuation of the F-body platform in 2002 is a prime example where the cobalt was to compete against the imports and the SSR was a bone thrown to the Camaro buyer.

Wrong on the Cobalt wrong on the SSR. More people left GM and went to other market segments.

Along the way GM finally became self aware and tried to reverse course. Difference is that now GM will be forced to build cars that are aligned with a market segment that they lost a decade ago to Honda and Toyota and I seriously doubt those buyers will be back abesent a rock bottom price.

That is why Fritz Henderson was quoted recently that GM would import cars from china.

So much for "keeping American jobs here in America" and a long list of broken promises to the voter.

[442w30]

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We have been there. same policies that gave us the 55MPH Speed limit and 165 HP V8's. Not a future I want.

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A speed limit? Petty . . . speed limits are still low in my area.

165 hp? Blame GM for that.


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IMO... People who buy GM want what GM does best-an American V-8. HP and torque for towing and power for performance.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're speaking of the hobbyist who drives V8s as a hobby.

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GM has tried to gain back market segment in cars from the imports for years by trying to be "like an import", while abandoning its core market for car buyers. Discontinuation of the F-body platform in 2002 is a prime example where the cobalt was to compete against the imports and the SSR was a bone thrown to the Camaro buyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're mistaken about Detroit's marketing. Discontinuing the F-body was arguable. The Cobalt was replacement for the unlamented Cavalier, and merely was Chevy's submission to competing in a class of vehicles. SSR? A niche vehicle.

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Wrong on the Cobalt wrong on the SSR. More people left GM and went to other market segments.

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What's wrong with the Cobalt? Lackluster in comparison to the competition? So whose fault was that?

Ditto with the SSR - lack of hp? Whose fault was that?

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Along the way GM finally became self aware and tried to reverse course. Difference is that now GM will be forced to build cars that are aligned with a market segment that they lost a decade ago to Honda and Toyota and I seriously doubt those buyers will be back abesent a rock bottom price.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may come as a surprise to you, but GM is not self-aware. GM's current situation most certainly has something to do with the economy but, even more so, GM's current situation has a hell of a lot to do with GM. Blaming the government is a convenient way to ignore the problems GM has had . . . but that's par for the course as GM has ignored its problems for years. Ironic, considering they have a portfolio of stellar cars.

Now, against the wall, GM is faced with making compromises in its future. The capitalist in me says to let GM die, but the American in me says we need to help Detroit as much as we can. . . so we have the government to do that.

You can't get back to health until you figure out what's causing the symptoms. I hope that GM has figured it out for once.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We have been there. same policies that gave us the 55MPH Speed limit and 165 HP V8's. Not a future I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

A speed limit? Petty . . . speed limits are still low in my area.

165 hp? Blame GM for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I agree with that last part...*all* US sold vehicles in the early/mid '70s got sucker punched by the gas crisis, and even more so by the "not ready for prime time" emissions regulations. You've been under the of those '70s/'80s vehicles Diego, they're like a snake's nest of vacuum hoses & relays & solenoids, and often times the only recourse in getting the thing to run right is to unhook all of that crap...crazy lean jetting & whacked timing settings to get the NOx numbers down, inefficient catalytic converters...the list goes on and on. The problem was that the technology to meet the emissions regs simply wasn't there...so we were left with a "dark ages" of cars in general [not just performance cars]. Might we be in the same boat today, looking down the barrell of even more strict emissions/mpg regulations?

[442w30]

Rob, I agree, and I apologize for implying it was just GM's fault - certainly the 1970s were a dark period for every manufacturer, and it took everyone a long time to get their junk together. Even with the advent of the 225hp 5.0 Mustang, it was a long time till it was improved upon. Even Ferraris were dogs!

However, today's times are different. We have Corvettes getting high-20s on the highway (with apologies to skip-shift!). Bland sedans like a V6 Accord regularly have acceleration that will rival the bulk of cars from the musclecar era. I think we're currently faced with an evolution of the automobile as personal transportation, but we're experiencing this at a point where we won't experience any dark age in regards to performance.

Plus, remember, CAFE is an aggregate regulation, so halo cars will continue to exist. The demise of the CTS-V, for example, has to do with GM's focus on getting back to health rather than the advent of the dark ages.

I really don't like what's going on between Detroit and Washington - I'm waiting with baited breath - but I'm merely acting as a hedge against those who think it's the end of the world. What would be the end of the world is if Detroit suffers more than it has.

[Kim_Howie]

The cars built in the US are great cars. My wife drives a Mercury Marinar All wheel drive it gets 32mph it also has a 100,000 mile warranty. It also was made in Kansas City. There is only one over sea owned company that has a 100,000 warranty all the rest are 36,000. The new president said NO new TAXES!!! HUH !!! Cigarettes have gone up 1.62 per pack thats 800.00 a year for me!! Thanks HUSSEIN.

[442w30]

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The new president said NO new TAXES!!! HUH !!! Cigarettes have gone up 1.62 per pack thats 800.00 a year for me!! Thanks HUSSEIN.

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Aside of your rhetoric, cig taxes have nothing to do with the president.

[Kim_Howie]

The pres passed the tax increase.

[GRB]

I wonder when highway deaths will reach 100,000 a year again? I guess saving lives doesn't really matter in this case.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We have been there. same policies that gave us the 55MPH Speed limit and 165 HP V8's. Not a future I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

A speed limit? Petty . . . speed limits are still low in my area.

165 hp? Blame GM for that.


[ QUOTE ]

IMO... People who buy GM want what GM does best-an American V-8. HP and torque for towing and power for performance.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're speaking of the hobbyist who drives V8s as a hobby.

[ QUOTE ]

GM has tried to gain back market segment in cars from the imports for years by trying to be "like an import", while abandoning its core market for car buyers. Discontinuation of the F-body platform in 2002 is a prime example where the cobalt was to compete against the imports and the SSR was a bone thrown to the Camaro buyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're mistaken about Detroit's marketing. Discontinuing the F-body was arguable. The Cobalt was replacement for the unlamented Cavalier, and merely was Chevy's submission to competing in a class of vehicles. SSR? A niche vehicle.

[ QUOTE ]

Wrong on the Cobalt wrong on the SSR. More people left GM and went to other market segments.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with the Cobalt? Lackluster in comparison to the competition? So whose fault was that?

Ditto with the SSR - lack of hp? Whose fault was that?

[ QUOTE ]

Along the way GM finally became self aware and tried to reverse course. Difference is that now GM will be forced to build cars that are aligned with a market segment that they lost a decade ago to Honda and Toyota and I seriously doubt those buyers will be back abesent a rock bottom price.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may come as a surprise to you, but GM is not self-aware. GM's current situation most certainly has something to do with the economy but, even more so, GM's current situation has a hell of a lot to do with GM. Blaming the government is a convenient way to ignore the problems GM has had . . . but that's par for the course as GM has ignored its problems for years. Ironic, considering they have a portfolio of stellar cars.

Now, against the wall, GM is faced with making compromises in its future. The capitalist in me says to let GM die, but the American in me says we need to help Detroit as much as we can. . . so we have the government to do that.

You can't get back to health until you figure out what's causing the symptoms. I hope that GM has figured it out for once.

[/ QUOTE ]


Speaking of speed limits why not speed governed vehicles that are adjusted by GPS... They are looking into this now for future applications...

On the cobalt.. you can disagree but its sales are what they are.. do a comparison with the imports.

On the SSR - it currently makes multiple lists of the worst vehicles ever built. Check it out. If you need help I will post links for you.


The Imports are what they are. Typically they are small displacement and are far less than exciting to drive and lack the butt busting torque that most American's prefer when towing or driving a muscle car.

Remember a little thing called Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness?? Constraints like this placed upon the the folks by the government is exactly what ended the first round of performance cars in the early 1970's and will no doubt end it now.

Question for you.... Tell us all how we will be able to meet fleet 2016 MPG requirements, Mass produce a vehicle that a defined market segment still clearly wants to buy (Camaro, Corvette, Challenger, Mustang check the sales they are significant) and still make over 400 HP with an "all American V8" and keep it fun to drive?

That was (and is) the topic of this thread...lest we go too far into the weeds

IMO.... The Government has NO business telling the market and a significant buying segment what it can or cannot drive.

Make no mistake I am not talking about Hobbyists but new vehicles.