Pontiac may be dead by monday..

[Late BrakeU2]

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No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block?

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I'm sure Obama will let us know shortly.

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So it's the President's fault that GM has problems?

To another point, I find it hard to believe someone thinks GM has made crap through 2005. Certainly if you've had problems with your '00 Grand Prix, you have a right to be angry. But I think GM has made some pretty decent cars in the past 20 years. The dark ages were the 1970s and the X-cars. GM has had a lot of bright spots over recent history. Today, it's business model needs a drastic revamp even more than Impala.

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I never said GM made crap. Quite to the contrary some of the best cars they ever made were built this decade-most certainly in the area of performance. The problem is and has been for decades bloated unions,skimpy warranties,and corporate arrogance.

You can't pay hillbillys six figures a year to screw on dashboards-then keep them on a oxygen tube until their dirt nap. That's not meant to imply they shouldn't receive bennies.

Yeah i'm pissed because most of us here are/were infinitely more passionate about GM than the last twenty years worth of CEO's. Come on the 5TH gen is a classic case in point on how to miss the boat once again. How many stangs and Challengers have been sold in the last two years?? It really doesn't matter now,they are being nationalized as we speak and yes Obama is the defacto CEO. That's what happens when you don't get your ducks lined up- they had YEARS to initiate change and elected not to trim the fat. Just wait and see what castrated products are going to be offered in a couple of years from an auto giant run by politcians. It is not this admins fault- the blame lies squarely on Lutz and Waggoner IMO

A real shame.

[442w30]

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I never said GM made crap.


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I never said you did, hence my intro, "To another point," as I was addressing two comments in one post.

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You can't pay hillbillys six figures a year to screw on dashboards-then keep them on a oxygen tube until their dirt nap. That's not meant to imply they shouldn't receive bennies.

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I don't think some of the folks of Michigan and elsewhere will find your comment about hillbillies to be truthful. Besides, doesn't an import manufacturer have a plant in Kentucky?

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It really doesn't matter now,they are being nationalized as we speak

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So when Chrysler took their loan in 1979 or so, did you consider them "nationalized?"

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That's what happens when you don't get your ducks lined up- they had YEARS to initiate change and elected not to trim the fat.


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No, when you borrow some money from the government to sustain yourself, there will be some terms to be met. And judging by all the interest in numerous forums, I would think most people don't understand that GM needed to trim the fat a long time ago but didn't due to their brands being institutions. Now they're up against the wall and they have no other choice. It was a valiant effort, but it should have been done long ago. Personally, I don't blame them for resisting, but when the rest of the world operates in a competitive manner (and while the world has become more global), why did GM continue to lug this weight around?

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Just wait and see what castrated products are going to be offered in a couple of years from an auto giant run by politcians. It is not this admins fault- the blame lies squarely on Lutz and Waggoner IMO

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Get over yourself - the government is not running GM, and nothing's gonna be watered down. And GM would not have its current successes without Lutz, as he opened many doors that were kept closed by GM's clumsy bureaucracy.

[Late BrakeU2]

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I never said GM made crap.


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Get over yourself - the government is not running GM, and nothing's gonna be watered down. And GM would not have its current successes without Lutz, as he opened many doors that were kept closed by GM's clumsy bureaucracy.

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Exactly what current success's are you referring to?. When the leader of the free world can turf the CEO of the largest auto mfg in the world that my freind is a harbinger of things to come.

[442w30]

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Exactly what current success's are you referring to?. When the leader of the free world can turf the CEO of the largest auto mfg in the world that my freind is a harbinger of things to come.


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Current successes?

- Corvette in all its iterations
- Competitive Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura models
- Gorgeous styling of the Solstice and Sky
- Everything Caddy touches
- Buick's success in quality polls
- Their trucks are always dependable

Want more?

Could you offer some evidence of your slippery slope? When Chrysler had their loan, it wasn't a harbinger. Methinks you're using a political bias to make a populist point that doesn't have any foundation of truth.

[Late BrakeU2]

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Exactly what current success's are you referring to?. When the leader of the free world can turf the CEO of the largest auto mfg in the world that my freind is a harbinger of things to come.


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Current successes?

- Corvette in all its iterations
- Competitive Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura models
- Gorgeous styling of the Solstice and Sky
- Everything Caddy touches
- Buick's success in quality polls
- Their trucks are always dependable

Want more?

Could you offer some evidence of your slippery slope? When Chrysler had their loan, it wasn't a harbinger. Methinks you're using a political bias to make a populist point that doesn't have any foundation of truth.

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The truth is these great design wins( not being facetious,read my above post) you have mentioned haven't hepled them turn a profit. The problem is not in the product,but the Union.
What was once a benefit has now become an entitlement, and how dare anyone question an entitlement??. While the UAW fairly negotiated retirement and health care plans, no one, on either side, factored the ultimate cost of those benefits. Once in contract law, those plans become entitlements and are therefore sacrosanct.They become "the cost of doing business". G.M., Ford, and Chrysler are the U.S. in microcosm - the "promises" cannot be kept without bankrupting the parent corporation. A slippery slope indeed..

The diff between Chrysler in 1980 and now was they actually had a real LEADER and VISIONARY who volunteered to work for a buck a year-not pushed to do it. Like Gene Stallings said in Forrest Gump "We sure could used him now"

[JoeG]

Bye Bye Miss American Pie............not too many slices left.............

[The Dude]

Gross wage of a UAW worker is around 54,000 a year. 2007 was the first year Toyota workers made more than the UAW wage.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/t...-first-time-l/

http://factcheckcms.bootnetworks.com...iew.php?id=865

http://www.uaw.org/auto/11_25_08auto2.cfm

[442w30]

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The truth is these great design wins( not being facetious,read my above post) you have mentioned haven't hepled them turn a profit. The problem is not in the product,but the Union.

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While the Unions have their own issues (I'd rather see them gone, but that's unrealistic), it's absolutely unfair to put blame on them while touting product. What you're missing is that GM's business model sucks. If product is king, how come a profit is so hard to come by? Place blame where it belongs - in the towers of the Ren Cen in downtown Detroit.


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The diff between Chrysler in 1980 and now was they actually had a real LEADER and VISIONARY who volunteered to work for a buck a year-not pushed to do it. Like Gene Stallings said in Forrest Gump "We sure could used him now"

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Ask veterans at Chrysler what they think of Lido. Chances are they don't think of him too fondly. However, he has a great PR agent.

[70 copo]

Looks like it's over. The Government and the UAW now essentually own GM.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in..._89_perce.html

Be sure to read the comments to the article that follow

[The Dude]

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You can't pay hillbillys six figures a year to screw on dashboards-then keep them on a oxygen tube until their dirt nap. That's not meant to imply they shouldn't receive bennies.


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In order to make 100,000 a year in an auto plant one would have to work 12 hours during the week and 16s on the weekends. One would have to sleep in their car between shifts and sometimes not go home for two days. And guess what? no one has made 100,000 in a long time. The days of unlimited overtime are over. A 40 hour check is all they see.

And for you information, the hillbillies that work for Toyota down in Georgetown make more than the Detroit hillbillies do. Are you pissed about that too?