Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?

[70 copo]

If the position is taken that if it is "dead then bury it" then ANY repair that would render the vehicle inoperable could be considered non repairable. You guys with re- stamped blocks, trannys, and rears... You know who you are!

The rebody issue is simply the extreme of saving the remaining cars that are out there. How are one of these cars properly saved? NOS GM sheet metal? How many parts can be replaced before the car should die? one floor? two floors? one quarter panel? both? One of the ZL-1's that were restored over a decade ago had almost all of the sheet metal removed excluding the driveshaft tunnel. The point that I am making here is that after reading this string of posts this topic is clearly about "rarety and not getting ripped off". It seems that those of us with the nice cars are perhaps overly concerned with maintaining market value. There are extremes on both sides of this opinion.

Many of the fighter aircraft recovered after WW2 currently on display were put together from several different planes- yet when assembled they clearly represent a completed example of that type of aircraft. Again-rarity is the issue here. Rarity drives the desireability of an item higher. If the desireability is high (and this web site clearly drives that) - the remaining material that is out there will be built up into functional equipment. Those of us with these cars begin this process by paying big dollars for desireable cars, which drives the remaining junk values in to the range where it becomes viable to do a "rebody". As long as the price is high, desireability is high, we will have the major component replacement issue. Interiors, Blocks, entire drive trains, major sections of the body sheetmetal - or entire bodys from the firewall back. Bottom line buyer beware- know what you are buying and be happy with it! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Unreal]

68TOPSTOCK,
You're right about the bedtime story. And just as bedtime story tellers don't all tell the same story the same way, hobbiests/businessmen interpret the "acceptable" restoration process differently. Sometimes that interpretation is a justification for their personal situation.

If I had a rust free all original Yenko, I might argue that only rust free all original Yenkos are "real" ones.

If I had one with rusty quarters, I might argue that it's OK to replace quarters and still have a "real" one.

If I had a total rust bucket, I might argue that rebody is OK.

But since I have a clone (I actually prefer Brian's "Tribute car" term but I dont want to appear to be legitamizing clones), I argue that it's not real, but it's not a fraud, either.

[Jeff H]

If you need another body to save your car, how come you're not saving the other body instead? Because it's a plain old, base car.

[MotownMadman]

Jeff, that is the point. I am not discussing for or against a rebodie being acceptable, I am just trying to look at the big picture here. Nobody wants to take the time or spend the money to restore a plain jane car. To justify a high dollar restoration on most accounts it has to do with rarity. However, I have known cases where someone has invested all the time and money in a plain jane car for sentimental reasons, but in most cases it is for rarity. I would think there are two reasons to do a rebodie. First, you have a car which may need quarters and floor pans, and maybe a trunk pan. This is expensive and time consuming, real expensive for someone having the work done. In this case the body is in my opinion being a bodyman, an easy fix. I would certainly not even consider a rebodie in this case, I would just fix what I had and move on. For the person who would do a rebodie here, it is simply about money, money, money. That I find to be dead wrong. Now lets look at the second scenario, you have a rare car, lets say every panel on the car is rusted badly, including the firewall and dash. Two ways to go here, replace every panel including the firewall and dash, which in essence when you are done what have you got, a new body. In this case I may go along with a rebodie if it were a rare enough car, ZL-1 etc. What it comes down to is this. We have no problem with changing a front fender on one of these cars, so what is the difference between a front fender and a quarter panel? None with the exception of how it attaches. One bolts and one welds. Difference between a inner front fender and inner rear fender? The way it attaches, and so on and so on. We have to remember that the bodies we are discussing here in the beginning were nothing more than a collection of parts that were assembled into a whole. No different then a front clip on a car, it is removeable in one piece, so it in itself is the front half of a car body. We have no problem with replacing one piece, fender vs quarter, etc etc, or if needed we replace the entire thing, which in that respect has no difference then replacing the entire rear half. If we are going to argue against a rebodie, it is then going to have to be unacceptable to replace any panel that is welded on, quarters, floors, etc. Once it becomes acceptable to start replacing welded on panels, it does not make any sense to say, "Ok, stop, you have gone far enough". If one is ok, then all is ok. I am not saying I agree with a rebodie, what I am coming around to is it has to be all or none as where is the imaginairy line that you cant cross. In one post here someone had said something about burying a dead car, yet in another section of this forum he had urged someone to buy the X-race car Mighty Mouse off E-Bay and save it. That car would need every panel on the body, or a different body. We even argue with ourselves about this issue. Nobody wants to see a rebodie, yet nobody wants to see an important piece of history gone forever either. None of us in this hobby has the right to tell anyone else what to do with their car, no more then we want to be told. On the other hand, no one has the right to intentionally decieve anyone else, unfortunatly a lot of deception is occuring in this hobby. But, here is the key. We live in America, or Canada, same freedoms, which gives us the right to choose what we do with ours cars, homes, etc, etc, with that comes the right to choose what we buy from someone else. I personally would never buy a restored car unless the car came with step by step photographs of the restoration, before, during, and after so that I know what I am buying, and if the person who ends up buying the car from me requires seeing the same photos before he buys, well he has chosen to know what he is buying. Anybody who wants to spend the big money on buying a restored car should be smart enough to make a informed decision on what they are buying, no body is forcing anyone else to buy their car. With the exception of the true original survivors left, a great deal of the restored cars have had major componants replaced on them, whether the current owners know it or not, or if they admit it or not. We have the right to choose, I choose not to buy a car with a rebodie, but I also choose to replace every panel on a car if I believe it is a piece of history worth saving. However, when I do a restoration (I have done a great deal)I do take photographs, or video of every process that leaves my shop with the car. I started this thread as a survey of sorts, it has went where I expected, not many of us are comfortable with a rebodie, yet at the same time we are not comfortable with others telling what to do with our cars either. In this hobby today, just make sure of what you are buying, and if you are not sure get an expert to look at it. If the car has a recent restoration and the owner dosent have photos, ask yourself why? More food for thought. Thanks, Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[copo9566aa]

Great post [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[68l30]

Here's some more food for thought.......How do you explain that feeling you'd have watching that Yenko,ZL-1,COPO,Motion,Nickey ect. car leave your driveway headed for the scrap yard? That feeling would describe, what I believe, most would feel about a rebody.There goes the real deal!I know people that save the old sheet metal just cause it's original to there car,$hit or not.Personally I don't feel bad about changing a quarter,been there done that.Watching a Harrell body ride off to become dust...well that's something I hope I'll never see...

Steve

[Jeff H]

Obviously this discussion is looking for opinions on how people perceive these cars and their restorations. I'll say that in my opinion, there is a difference between a rebody and replacing welded metal like quarter panels. If you damaged your car back in 69, the dealer would replace the damaged panel and repaint the area to match. That has been an accepted practice for a long time. If you damaged the entire body, the car was totalled, you weren't given a new body to put all other parts on. Saving a rusted out or severly damaged body on a rare car is a difficult and expensive task and it helps preserve the history of these cars. We all know there are people doing rebodies and back-halving cars so they can make a buck. I won't buy one of these cars and I'm sure most of the people here wouldn't either. But I see no problem with replacing rusted or damaged panels or body parts. It's no different than replacing other maintenance items like radiator hoses, spark plug wires. But the way I see it, the body shell is the actual car that the VIN and title go with. I sure wish we could get some more people to add their thoughts to this discussion. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it always helps to hear other thoughts.

[whitetop]

I have no problem with a rebody as long as the original cars body was totally 100% unsalvagable. I don't mean tubbed cars either which i consider very salvagable. But the ones where literaly every panel needs replaced even the roof. Here is how I look at it: I would rather have a original rust free body that was welded together by the workers on the assembly line circa '69 that has it's original sheet metal versus a car having 90% of it's original sheetmetal replaced by new GM sheetmetal that was made last year and welded together in some body shop somewhere.
Dave

[sixtiesmuscle]

Jeff, maybe the reason more people aren't sharing their thoughts is that we beat this subject to death about a year ago. The result? Similar to now. Differing opinions about how much is "too much", but, a pretty fair agreement that the body shell, and intact firewall seem to carry the "soul" of the car. I don't remember ANYONE believing that a "rebody" [replacement body] was acceptable. You can not have tags & title, apply them to another serial number car, and, have a genuine car. You have a nice, but fraudulent, car. At least I THINK that's how it ended, but, if not, I'm sure we'll hear what others thought.

[SS427]

On Friday, I received a call from another sYc BB member asking my opinion on this very question since I had been restoring cars for 26 years. I have done many cars over those years though I can honestly say I have never rebodied a car. I have however, had to replace a lot of sheet metal. 70 copo brought up a point that was the same point brought up with the sYc member that contacted me.

I was recently involved with a complete restoration of a WWII P-51C fighter that had been recovered from the basement of a Vo Tech school. The wings had been cut off with a cut off saw so they could move it there. Much of the aluminum skin was either too badly corroded or damaged to salvage. The long story short, this airplane received a 10 year plus restoration at a cost far exceeding $2,000,000. The final outcome was to be one of two currently flying P51B's in the world and carries the paint scheme of the Tuskegee airman on it's skin. For those of you who don't know, this was an all black squadron who protected our B-17 pilots overseas. While in their care, not a single B-17 was lost to enemy fire.

When I am at an airshow with the aircraft, there is nothing that can compare to seeing a 70 plus year old man break down in tears upon seeing the plane and completing coming unglued when offered a ride in the back seat. I give my personal qaurantee not one of these men gives a rats a$$ about what original sheet metal is on that airplane only that it brought back some very fond and deeply buried memories and they finally receive some of the gratification they have longed for. They care nothing about the current monetary value of the plane but only it's historic value. This airplane is valued at many millions of dollars today regardless to the fact that very little of it is original besides it's airframe certification and identification numbers and some misc hardware.

Some of our cars have the same effect on people at shows that these aircraft do. I have had many people come up to me over the years and thank me for sharing a piece of their childhood with them. They cared little about it's originality only the significant role it played in their life.

The moral of this story is that I do not condone nor do I participate in rebodying and/or restamping a car but would not feel much differently about a car if I knew the facts. Yes the car would be worth less but are these pieces of history not worth saving as at least a replica and not to bury those memories along with the car. This is just one man's opinion.