Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...

[Jim Ferron]

Now this is a discussion board...so nobody get mad..OK? Just give your opinions...as to relative value..ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Options, color, condtion...

Which car has more dollar value [and by how much?]..a 1969 GTO Judge Ram Air III or a 1969 Chevelle SS L-78 both 4-speeds.. Let's assume both are documented numbers matching, pedigree cerified. Options similar.

Now I either past or present have owned these cars and have always wondered if the market values them differently...What do you think?

[mockingbird812]

Good question Jim - should generate some lively conversation. Would recommend asking same question on a Poncho site.

my 2 pennies: these 2 cars should be nearly similar in market value. Whereas the Judge option is special and adds value the hypothetical GTO does not have the top-of-the-line RPO engine (RAIII vs. RAIV) and in my opinion does not perform nearly as well as the solid lifter, Holley topped, aluminum intaked, forged crank, etc found in the L78. In short, the Judge option and the L78 option nearly cancel each other out. Overall though, Chevys generally command better prices than equivalent Ponchos. Slight edge to the L78 Chevelle by 5%.

[Woj]

Personally, I feel both would be of equal value, in my eyes. Assuming roughly equivalent pedigrees. I happen to like both cars equally well, but I'm sure the majority would favor the Chevelle.

Ask a Pontiac person and I'm sure you'll get a different answer.

Which one are you selling?

Phil Woj.

[Postsedan]

I vote for the obvious faster car.....The 1969 L78 Chevelle!

Dan.

[GTO_DON]

Its not faster than a Ram Air IV
Definetly not as good looking as a judge!

[Jim Ferron]

I'm going out on a limb here and say...a carousel red 1969 GTO is the singularly most recognizable muscle car of all time.

People who don't know what a muscle car even is...know an orange '69 Judge IS a Muscle Car.

[mnyenko]

Both cars are very popular. The lower production numbers on the Judge. As well as PHS paperwork. Push the price up. Earl

[Johnny Horsepower]

While the L-78 MIGHT be faster, the Judge is, as was said, iconic and a better car (close, but the Ponchos, were a little nicer). I think the chance of fraud in Chevys and the bullet proof PHS of Pontiacs, swings the price in favor of the judge by %10 maybe more in some cases.

My $.02

John

[Jim Ferron]

[ QUOTE ]
While the L-78 MIGHT be faster, the Judge is, as was said, iconic and a better car (close, but the Ponchos, were a little nicer). I think the chance of fraud in Chevys and the bullet proof PHS of Pontiacs, swings the price in favor of the judge by %10 maybe more in some cases.

My $.02

John

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh there isn't any MIGHT about it...my L-78 is the fastest bone stock muscle car I've ever ridden in..so much faster than my Ram air III Judge's it isn't worth the comparison..as as far as the paper work goes..as mentioned we are assuming paperwork is bulletproof for this comparo.

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh there isn't any MIGHT about it...my L-78 is the fastest bone stock muscle car I've ever ridden in..so much faster than my Ram air III Judge's it isn't worth the comparison..as as far as the paper work goes..as mentioned we are assuming paperwork is bulletproof for this comparo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...well, coming from the Pontiac camp , I have to disagree. Road tests of the day showed the 68/69-L78 Chevelle was a low 14 second car, at best. The 69 RAIII Judge was also a low 14 second car. They were about the same.

Chevelle Tests - Hot Cars Magazine - 1969 L78 Chevelle SS - February 1969 - 14.07/101 mph, Popular Hot Rodding - 1968 L78 SS Chevelle - high 13's, with slicks.

The 69 RAIII Judge was also a low 14 second car, high 13's with slicks. Biggest difference is that L-78 shortblock was MUCH stronger than the Pontiac RAIII.

I'd like to point out too that 1/4 mile times aren't exactly a measure for collector value. If it were, then a 1989 Turbo Trans Am would be worth more than a 70 Hemi Cuda. It's the image the car conveys, and in this case, I'd have to say the Judge would be worth more because it's regarded as a iconic Musclecar. It's also a big bonus that Pontiacs can get PHS documentation, and when it comes to a Judge, that makes ALL the difference in the world. Jim Mattison (PHS) stated that 40% of all the requests he gets for GTO documentation turn out to be a cloned Lemans. As for Judges, I'd estimate that 80% of all 69 Judges are standard GTO's or Lemans's. It's easy to clone a Judge - stickers and a wing, and you have it (visually at least). The 69 Judge is just far more identifiable to the average collector. It's pop art, it's a sign of the Musclecar Era, and therefore tends to bring a few more $$$ than a 69 Chevelle SS.