Grand Prix question

[olredalert]

------As long as Pontiac questions are being asked,maybe I can pose one?
------I have a 64 Grand Prix optioned with the 421HO/tri-power,and four speed trans.I know the combination is a rare one but am wanting to find out how rare.This car is proven by 2 build sheets and PHS documents.There were around 3300 421HO/tri-power/four-speeds put in big body 64 Pontiacs,but by far the majority were installed in Catalinas,2+2s,and Venturas.Ive actually asked Jim M this question and he said the PHS services have no way of narrowing down on the usage.Ive only ever come up with 5 or 6 of these GPs and a couple of them are not documented.What do the Pontiac pundits think?..........Bill S

[tjs44]

a few years ago I drove one that was for sale in SoCal.Kind of a dark maroon red,did not buy,got a 421 63 instead

[442w30]

I think a large percentage of them were installed in Grand Prixs.

[olredalert]

------I appreciate your input,442,but dont you think that the highest horsepower engines available in 64 big-body Pontiacs with 4spds would have been primarily in lighter,cheaper body styles like Catalinas? Grand Prixs were expensive heavy cruisers and it would seem more likely that they were ordered with automatics weather they had a big 421 or a 389 variant.........Bill S

[442w30]

There is a book called "Standard Book of Pontiacs" that I have but not with me. In it, it shows how many cars were built with "synchromesh". I think you'd be surprised to see how many GPs were built with sticks. Do you have the book?

Also, I think it's a good rule of thumb to assume when a fancy street engine was available in the early years of the musclecar era, they were built in greater numbers in the fancier model. Check out performance Mopars - Sport Furys often got the cool engines in greater numbers than Savoys. They made more Hemi Satellites than Belvedere IIs. More 409s in Impala SSs than Biscaynes. More 427s in Galaxie XLs than Custom 300s.

[Belair62]

Light body (relatively speaking) ...421 HO..another one that got away

[442w30]

Exactly! You don't see many of those! I've only seen one. Most of the ones I've seen have been hardtops and GPs.

[442w30]

I found the info I was looking for.

63,810 64 GP's were built, 3124 came with synchromech and 60,686 had Roto's. No breakdown between three and four speed sticks.

That is A LOT of sticks for a big car, but in that era, Pontiac had a great and sporty image and I bet they installed more manual floor shifts at a higher percentage than other brands.

[olredalert]

442,

-----I guess my only questions would be "how many of the synchromesh cars were 4spd"(probably the majority),and how many were 421HOs. There were,as you know,a whole bunch of Pontiac engine choices. Almost all the 4spd GPs I hear about were 389s. As this was the first year for the GTO I think its safe to say that a good number of guys who would have bought big-body Hi-Po Pontiacs took the bait and downsized. They realized that weight loss was cheap horsepower.Thanks for your input!.........Bill S

[JLP]

It needs to be remembered that the automatic transmission until 1965/1966 was the old slim jim hydromatic. Prone to failure and inconsistent running unless rebuilt by B&M or some other race oriented shop. Didn't take much to burn one out and the 1-2 gear changes were really close together.

GM & their good auto's did not come out early on and so many ordered sticks instead. Remember that back then (1964) most people learned to drive on a stick not an automatic. Had a tough time convincing my father to get rid of the old '53 chev with stick and get the '57 Pontiac with the automatic. It cost him about $250 to get the trans rebuild in 1962 for that '57. OUCH. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]I did not tear it up. My older brother did. It had been his car.