RAIV and RAV more continuation....

[Steve_Hoog]

Dajudge

Way back you asked me if I was writing articles in the Goatfinder about RAV:

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Are you the same guy who has been advertising in the Goat Finder about the same topic for some time now?

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Was that in reference to this?

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"'UPDA TE FROM LAST MONTH Regarding the controversy stirred by Steve Hoog's letter about Factory RA V Tunnel-Port cars last month we have the follow*ing additional information to share with you: The car in question is a Sliver/Black '70 RA IV/4Sp JUDGE with a 4.33 posl rear, from KNAFEL PONTIAC In Akron, OH. There Is a me*mo on the build sheet "memo 2-38" which lists a price of over $200, not $15 as incor*recdy reported last month. The car is an Original 19,000-Mile car. The RA V engine was blown up when the car was 2 yrs old. It sat stored until the current owner bought it 4-5 years ago, who's name we do not have permission to reve'al. The owner contacted PHS who were very vague in their response to the car. He then contacted Bill Knafel himself and he remembered this particular car being delivered to his dealership with a RA V engine already installed. This is what Knafel had to say:
"We had a number of 1970 GTO JUDGEs delivered to us with RA V engines. Plus, we also Installed a number of the RA V engines at my dealership. After all of these years, as well as we can ascertain, this car was Originally delivered to my dealership with a RA V engine. For doubters call me330)-836-0338." Knafel later wrote some articles for Smoke Signals magazine (as well as for the GOATFINDER) which mentioned this car specifically. The owner has nearly one hundred Pontiacs, all rare and collectable, including a '71 LeMans SportlGT with a 455HO Ram Air/Automatic, which the books say could not be ordered, yet the car exists, and Is fully-clocumented!



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No this wasn't me, my guess is it was Bill's son:

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Knafel, W J

2678 Abington Rd
FAIRLAWN, OH 44333
330-836-0338

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I did write one private email to The Goatfinder in reference to a quote by The Goatfinder that was posted on Sean Mattingly's site. The Goatfinder published it without asking my permission.

Then you said this:

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I really believe in my heart that this whole RA V hype job is all about the money.


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No it's not about money. No one has sold anyting from the debate that took place a year ago, it's about history.

Then:

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Hey Steved you want me to let it go? Look back at page 9 post # 59392 just recently you stated that you spoke to a gentlemen "who used to run cars through the assembly line that would end up in engineering only a few feet away." You don't like to be corrected when you are caught. I am just pointing this out so people do not mistake you for the expert that you think you are.

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Yes I did talk to several people on the phone and I some what remember this one person saying things similar to this.

If he was wrong, that makes the entire RAV debate null and void?

After GTAA asked some questions and I referenced the forgone debate, I went back and read some of it. It seems I left some stuff unfinished. I didn't want to restart the original thread, and I SURE don't want to start any negative business back up. Just trying to answer your questions in a peacable way.

[Steve_Hoog]

Dajudge

I kept thinking, "something is not right about your contradiction about the engineering building".

Granted I have never been to Michigan and not even seen photos, but I will try to find out more about this. Either the guy you talked to was wrong or the guy I talked to, plus a guy the lives here and I talked to in person is wrong.

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I have also done my own research and contacted GM and spoke to a person who works in GM archives the engineering dept was no where near the assembly line and they also stated that all legacy documentation is now in the hands of PHS

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The guy that gave me the perfect build sheet for the 70 Judge is the one that I talked to on the phone, I can't imagine how else he got that sheet if he didn't work there like he said. Which also validated his reference to the engineering department being a few feet away, to me anyway.

Then... Roy Phillips (long time dealer employee in Tulsa) was awarded a trip to the Pontiac plant in the early 60's. He had a camera, and I posted those pics. He said "there were these double doors right off the line that they let me go in, and it was The Hobby Shop but they wouldn't let me take my camera in there. There were two guys running a SD head casting machine, they were making them right there before me."

I don't have any reason to doubt either of these people, not that they couldn't be wrong. And then, maybe the guy you talked to is wrong?

Then I thought, what if your guy was thinking about the Milford Grounds which is about 25 miles west of Pontiac. Do you suppose that could be where the descrepency could be?

I also know two people who have been in the records room, which I believe is in the basement of the old Pontiac building. Maybe Jim was allowed to move everything since then. I also was told or read (don't remember which), that there is a cage in that room that NO ONE is allowed to go in. Not even Belair. J/K

I'll try to come up with some more info.

[DaJudge]

Steve ,

The people I have spoken with worked at GM at the time and they were talking about the Pontiac plant, it was a huge facility and still is.

I am not going to be negative in any way shape or form. People that are considered experts regarding Pontiacs have stated that "No Pontiac left the factory with a RA V installed" Among those experts are John Sawruk and Jim Mattison.

In life if you do not have concrete evidence to support a statement and I mean paperwork not verbal story telling from the past you lose credibility in any endeavor you are pursuing. Facts and supportive documentation are imperative whether you are buying a high dollar car or making a sales presentation to the board of directors a company. I cannot go into a meeting and make a presentation and discuss ROI and life cycle costs etc., without facts and supportive documentation.

That is all I have said all along unless there is documentation in the form of original paperwork to support a RA V engine installed at the factory then you must then assume it was installed at the dealer or even the original owner dropped it in.

All of the cars discussed previously are very interesting and have great history, I have the utmost respect for their owners and in no way am I speaking in a negative fashion about them or their cars.

Everyone here knows how I feel about this topic and I consider it a moot point unless original documentaion surfaces. Respectfully, Mike

[tjs44]

wont this ever die?With so few,like 6,castiron exhaust manifold made and NEVER a set seen on a supposed factory RA V car.The factory would not have sent a car out with headers.IMHO,Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

OK guys, maybe I incorrectly titled this new thread. Maybe the administrator can change it to what it should be:

"Where is the Engineering Building"

[Steve_Hoog]

At this point I think the exhaust manifold issue should be given to Marty Schorr.

I would guess there were more made than is known, but that's just a guess.

[tjs44]

I talked to George Delorian,he told me as good as he could REMEMBER it was about 1/2 dz.Same with the gen 1 birds.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

I just got off the phone with another GM Engineer who still works there, in Powertrain. Which sits on top of the old Engineering building, the tunnel is still there apparently.

Engineering was connected by an underground tunnel to the administration building which is about a 5 to 10 minute walk. The production plant was about 500 yards from the engineering building, so they were like a tripod of buildings. He said most of the production buildings are gone and that you can still see some of the foundations.

I asked him to give a general perception of why cars went to engineering and he said basically to make mules. He said there were several other reasons why cars went there, and that there were actually enough parts there to build a car. He said they would grab cars off the assembly line like we might grab a bolt from the bin and there was never any paperwork. So PHS would be of little use for any car that ended up in engineering, I hated to hear that but that's the way it is I guess. He said any car built without dum dum would be skipped on the production by a walk through with an engineer, which is the exact same thing the guy that gave me the build sheet said.

He also told me about the black 70 RAV that ran around the facilities, just as the other engineer I talked to some time ago. So I would suspect that car to be as told, probably no PHS on it either. I asked about his opinion on Marty Schorr's accounting of Milford, he said it was possible but he wasn't involved with Milford and could not collaberate that.

He said the facilities as he descibed were basically laid out in the late 60's, so the guy from Tulsa that went there and saw the SD room apparently saw the older layout. He had never heard of "The Hobby Shop", so I now suspect that to be term used with the older SD room.

I dig this kinda stuff!!!! I asked if he would try to find some old pics of the engineering building, he will try. I love pics and that would be some sweet stuff to see.

So that's it for now.

[Steve_Hoog]

Here are the exhaust Tom refers to, for the F body. Tom, I think Lance or some one has a set of A (maybe more?). Pic possible because of Andy and Musclecar Review, because I sure don't have a set in real life.

[tjs44]

I have a set on my T/A,they are made for the 303 short deck block,the oil filter does not have a adapter,it screws onto the side of the block.Tom