GM Workers on Strike
 

GM workers walked out today at noon. Any bets on how long it will be until GM moves its remaining US plants to China? (Or Canada, Mexico, etc.) Radio said that it's the first GM strike since the '70s.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

I think it's only the first nationwide strike since the 70s. There was a strike in Flint in the late 90s. Still a big deal over here.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

GM workers are going to be screwing themselves in the long run. GM is still in trouble, and only a matter of time before GM moves to Mexico or Canada and NO ONE will have a job

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

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GM workers are going to be screwing themselves in the long run. GM is still in trouble, and only a matter of time before GM moves to Mexico or Canada and NO ONE will have a job

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GM plants were the target plants this year for the contract this year. I will be interested to see if Ford and Chrysler UAW brothers and sisters will be walking out as well. (Just because I am a supplier at a Ford Plant!)

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

[ QUOTE ]
GM workers are going to be screwing themselves in the long run. GM is still in trouble, and only a matter of time before GM moves to Mexico or Canada and NO ONE will have a job

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt, thanks for saying that! My thoughts exactly!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

US automaker sales are down across the board and these folks
are striking. Perhaps they should consider the - out of line
wages they get for the level of work they perform. I know
this is going to pi$$ some members off here, but it needs to
be said. We don't live in the same world anymore and no one
( including US car buyers evidently ) wants to pay a premium for
those wages. I'd rather be employed at a somewhat realistic
wage than unemployed with a former high wage. World wide
competition is very tight right now and all automakers have
their sights clearly set on the USA. Wonder why that is?
We're so busy fighting amongst ourselves and the ailing US
automaker situation that we don't see them coming. Look at
some of these Asian automakers. 100,000 mile warranty! If
you daughter wants her first car and I can find a descent
one with a 100,000 mile warranty, guess which way I'm going.

Where the hell is Lee Iacocca when we need him..... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

On a similar note, I just heard that Chrysler is offering a
"LIFE TIME WARRANTY" on new vehicles! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif
Now, that will get them back on the radar. Perhaps we just
found Lee Iacocca afterall....... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

ChryCo/FoMoCo workers won't be striking, at least not in the near future...GM still runs Detroit, and the other Big 2 see this as their chance to make up some ground on the General. And, UAW has already verbally agreed to extend contracts with ChryCo/FoMoCo, but decided to try their leverage against GM. As y'all mentioned above, my gut says the UAW is shooting themselves in the foot, as this may be the final excuse for GM to *totally* cut & run and push everything across the border, or off the continent for that matter...

[Rusty: I read an *excellent* article about this upcoming UAW/GM battle at breakfast in Ionia, had I been thinking I'd have kept the paper and passed it along!]

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

It's impossible to attribute all of GM's wage woes to current payroll. The real cause of the problem is retiree benefits. GM, unlike most of their foreign competitors building cars with American Workers, is required to pay health benefits for life. This includes workers that theoretically retired 10, 20 maybe thirty years ago.

I live near the Fort Wayne Silverado plant and this morning's news said that GM was willing to move the $51 Billion Dollar retiree benefit program over to UAW in an effort to save $3 Billion per year.

The issues facing GM and the UAW are for more complex than 100,000 mile waranties. Many of the problems today are the result of the strong automotive economy of the 1960's and the bargaining practices of the past.

GM's competitors are relatively new in the game (building cars in the USA) and in many cases are non-union or at worst case, union with modern bargaining practices that don't offer things like retiree benefits.

It's a sad day in Northeast Indiana because nobody wins in a strike.

Just an experienced outsider's look in,
Ed https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

[ QUOTE ]
GM workers are going to be screwing themselves in the long run. GM is still in trouble, and only a matter of time before GM moves to Mexico or Canada and NO ONE will have a job

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would they move uphere? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif The Canadian dollar is now at par with the US dollar and the strike in the US will force our plants to shut down due to the just-in-time inventory process. Oshawa will will be shutting down the Impala plant on tonights midnight shift as a result of the strike.

I think GM will take this opportunity to shut down a few plants and move them to China. Low wages, no pension, safety or health concerns to worry about.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Im not too smart when it comes to unions, but what happens to the workers here when GM moves thier plants to China. Does the union then pick up thier salaries and give them benefits etc that they no loinger get when thier jobs are gone???

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not too smart when it comes to unions, but what happens to the workers here when GM moves thier plants to China. Does the union then pick up thier salaries and give them benefits etc that they no loinger get when thier jobs are gone???

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No, they are SOL.

We had a union strike here about 2 years ago. The union workers at the other plants wore an arm band or two for a few days to show support. Several hundred union workers walked off the job, quietly, peacefully, and followed the proper shutdown procedures (important at a chemical plant). They picketed almost every day, sitting on their lawn chairs with coolers full of drinks and snacks, while the two sides negotiated. The company used existing employees to keep production going. When the announcement came that replacement workers (still union!!!) were being brought in - there was mayhem to say the least! Lots of picketers, police, media, helicopters - 5 union guys on the hood of my car with 3 guards trying to block them (they thought I was a replacement worker), totally nuts!

Why? The union had their way in previous bargaining sessions, but this time they were up against China, ie; no more concessions - and for the first time they would have to pay a % of the health insurance premiums (always 100% paid for the union members).

The result? The strike ended when the union realized they were done, they took a small lump sum payout, and were out of a job - only 5 were brought back, and the replacement workers were quite happy with the new contract.

Where are they now? I just ran into one working at the local hardware store a few weeks ago. Sad.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Gm will drag this thing out until the union has no more money. Then they will close the plants.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

they had a call in show on morning radio here in grand rapids, a GM worker called in and said he had not gone to work in 13 years and still gets his paycheck in the mail every week, Gm stopped production of a product in the plant that he worked in and the union contract states if there is not a job in his field within a 125 mile radias of his home he is able to collect his pay until they do, This guy thinks its funny, and they say GM is greedy at contract time, give me a break, I work at a union job and at times you tend to look at the union and shake your head for a severe lack of common sence, I know of several GM workers that play cards and read every day at work and collect 30+ dollars an hour plus bennies, alot of people are willing to bend but the union won't, I can understand when it comes to retied peoples benefits, they made a desision based on a promise and its going to be hard to take that back,

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

My next dumb question is why not hire your own people instead of union workers?? What are the benefits for a company that hires union labor ? I suppose union workers are more skilled for the money they get than other workers? Its one thing when you get to sit around and party and get a few days off in the hopes youll get a better pay,yet another to realize that you arent going back to work when the company has had enough of the unions demands.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Well, that's a tough question, as I've been on both sides of the issue.

In many cases, companies buy other companies and essentially inherit their unions and sometimes union issues/culture, (been there). Other times, an unhappy work force 'organizes' themselves and actually starts a union where one did not exist, (been there). In my earlier example, management could have proceeded to 'break' the union and only hire non-union workers (most jobs are unskilled). However, sometimes the wiser thing to do is to continue to peacefully coexist with the existing union - management can sometimes get a different (ie; worse) union organized against them.

In a strike situation, there is always plenty of blame to go around. A wise (old) worker once told me that "companies with the worst union relationships - usually deserve them." That statement can speak volumes about effective management.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch, (not completely anti-union either), but having worked at several companies with union workforces - I can see how GM got themselves into this mess.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

As much as the US and Canadian Unions are on their own, we're all in it together as the parts must flow quickly between our borders especially in today's 'just in time' world of non warehousing materials..
So...even though the strike itself isn't here, the Canadian parts plants are already closing as there's nowhere to ship the parts to...the car plants in Oshawa are scheduled to stop production tomorrow...truck plant 3 days behind..
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

When Lee Iacocca came into the Chrysler/ American Motors deal (Early 80's).....The Union at American Motors Kenosha Plant had a "Cushy" set-up where the had 1 Union Steward for every seven Employee's......and one day a week after working for 1/2 hour, all the Stewards got to go into the Company Cafetera (with substitute workers taking their place) and Conduct Union Business (read drinking coffee and B.S'ing)for the rest of the day......Think about it ....losing 1/7th of your workforce for 1/5th of your week (plus paying for the replacement workers , again 1/7th of your workforce)........The Union had the "OLD" management at the AMC Plant Trained well..
Well, A New Sheriff in Town called Lee Iacocca......He gets together with the Union President and tells him that they need to come to some sort of an agreement as to where there will be 1 Union Steward for every 20 employee's........Now......The Union Guy is used to walking on Water and tell's Lee to "Stick It".....So Lee tells the Employee's that this is something very important to the Future of Automobile Assembly in Kenosha.......
About a year or two after he was told "No GO", the Employees were Lining the Streets watching the Wrecking Balls knock down the Vehicle assembly buildings.....
A couple of years ago I was in a Restaurant in town and at the table next to us was the "OLD" Union President and he was talking to another couple about the "Old" days, and he said "You know, I probably shouldn't taken such a Hard Line" about the Steward Issue, ....
They still have a Impact in Kenosha as they still produce Engines here and have about 600 employees, but the Union has really Backed Off..........

Ken

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Its way more complicated than more money these days. I believe it is over benefits more than anything. In the hey day when the Big 3 were making billions and the workers were being beat up a little is when all this happened. It was very important to establish a wage and a collective bargaining agreement in those days no one had good health care and a pension plan. Remember if Detroit didn't have such things no one else around the country did either. They set the tone of the country. When the big 3 were busy the Unions demanded more and more and they got it. Starting in the 80's things got bad and slowly progressed down hill. Everybody had to do the tighten-up and I don't mean the dance. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif I do believe that the 2 sides made great strides to improve their working agereements with each other. Quality has come a long way and so has attitudes. There will always be people sitting around, calling out sick and just loafing at their jobs. Man....just look at one of the Nations biggest employers the Federal Govt. wow and you talk about waste!!! About health care and foreign competition in this country? I think ALL new automotive manufactures that come into this country should put a percentage into the health care plan for any automotive worker working here. Look how much the older companies have to harness with old labor agreements and old employees on pension plans. Toyota, BMW, Honda etc. I believe does not have to guarantee their employees anything. Not fair in my eyes because Detroit had to guarantee for life things to their people. If you want to make billions in this country you have to pay also. I think our car manufacturers are making money they just have to pay too much out. No one can complain about the Unions making concessions and cutting back in the last 10 years. I think they have come a long way in that dept. If it was NOT for Unions our people would have nothing and the Corporations would have it all, with no say to the people. Just look at health care and 401K/pension plane since only about 14% of the work force in this country is Union anymore. Many can't afford good healthcare and saving for retirement. IMO this great country was the strongest from the 40's till the early 80's when the Unions were a big percentage of the work force. We lead the world in everything! Besides if we all worked for $5.00 an hour at our jobs today it still would not really compete with the foreign and commmunistic labor forces in other countries. So....its a happy balance in my opinion. The American worker still and always will need a voice. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its way more complicated than more money these days. I believe it is over benefits more than anything. In the hey day when the Big 3 were making billions and the workers were being beat up a little is when all this happened. It was very important to establish a wage and a collective bargaining agreement in those days no one had good health care and a pension plan. Remember if Detroit didn't have such things no one else around the country did either. They set the tone of the country. When the big 3 were busy the Unions demanded more and more and they got it. Starting in the 80's things got bad and slowly progressed down hill. Everybody had to do the tighten-up and I don't mean the dance. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif I do believe that the 2 sides made great strides to improve their working agereements with each other. Quality has come a long way and so has attitudes. There will always be people sitting around, calling out sick and just loafing at their jobs. Man....just look at one of the Nations biggest employers the Federal Govt. wow and you talk about waste!!! About health care and foreign competition in this country? I think ALL new automotive manufactures that come into this country should put a percentage into the health care plan for any automotive worker working here. Look how much the older companies have to harness with old labor agreements and old employees on pension plans. Toyota, BMW, Honda etc. I believe does not have to guarantee their employees anything. Not fair in my eyes because Detroit had to guarantee for life things to their people. If you want to make billions in this country you have to pay also. I think our car manufacturers are making money they just have to pay too much out. No one can complain about the Unions making concessions and cutting back in the last 10 years. I think they have come a long way in that dept. If it was NOT for Unions our people would have nothing and the Corporations would have it all, with no say to the people. Just look at health care and 401K/pension plane since only about 14% of the work force in this country is Union anymore. Many can't afford good healthcare and saving for retirement. IMO this great country was the strongest from the 40's till the early 80's when the Unions were a big percentage of the work force. We lead the world in everything! Besides if we all worked for $5.00 an hour at our jobs today it still would not really compete with the foreign and commmunistic labor forces in other countries. So....its a happy balance in my opinion. The American worker still and always will need a voice. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You are "Right".......but it has to be a "Balanced" Voice..........Now!!!.......Are you coming to Vettefest???

Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Is that really what you wanted to ask me? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

I don't think this plant employs Union labor..

http://www.agilitynut.com/05/7/tastyk.jpg

Still want em? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

http://www.unsexiestmen.net/secure/u...DE_CRMPETS.jpg

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Yes it does my good man! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif and https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/drool.gif to TastyKake!

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

C'mon Sam...no more beating around the bush...make the plans and go to Vettefest.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

I think there's one very important thing to remember when you talk about manufacturing in this country. We won WWII by out producing the axis powers. The A bomb brought Japan to it's knees, but Germany was defeated by our ability to overwhelm them with mass produced tanks,planes, ships, etc.
When you move steelmaking, and manufacturing jobs to China, or somewhere else you have no control over, I believe you leave the country at peril.
Should you become involved in a protracted conflict with say Iran, you do not have the ability to produce in this country adequite replacement equipment to fight a non nuclear conflict. You barely have enough now to try to sustain what's going on in Iraq. That's why you have a lot of old UAW retirees workin at the Rock Island arsenal building armored humvee doors.
Just in passing, most union people are some of the most patriotic folks you'll ever meet.The president of Iran would not be welcomed at any UAW plant that I know of. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif
Anyway the main point of this rant is that you need equity, and fairness during bargaining time. All sides need to respect the needs, and issues shared by their common goals.The union needs to be realistic in their demands, and the company needs to respect the workers, and not say things like we can get trained monkeys to do your job, or we'll get a bunch of Mexicans to replace your sorry asses.(been there, heard that) Comprehensive striker replacement bargaing legislation, joined with mandatory federal mediation intervention so as to not damage the economy, or threaton national security would be a plus. At any rate when this country can not internally build, in mass numbers, enough weapons to fight a prolonged conflict, because of manufacturing outsourcing, and gutting a skilled union workforce, we're simply screwed. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Schonye nails it agin. We were the strongest industrialized nation on earth a few years ago. Produced the most for less. If I remember correctly 35-39% of the work force was union from the 40's till the mid 70's . I don't think we will ever see that again. Its really all our faults in some respect. The world is a global economy with America loosing ground in the manufacturing and the GNP sector. Where is Jimmy Hoffa when you need him? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Good points, but there is a reason for outsourcing certain jobs - the domestic rate is simply prohibitive compared to the global rate! If the unions keep negotiating themselves out of jobs, they are the ones pushing the workforce overseas!

A local UAW worker was on the news last night stating that 'they want us to pay a portion of our healthcare insurance....' - wake up pal, the rest of the workforce has been doing it for 25 years https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif Another worker stated the biggest issue is job security, they want a guarentee that more jobs won't be moved offshore... Keep it up buddy, the wrecking ball is not too far away! It's that very mindset that gets them in trouble - our very own union now looks back and wishes they had made logical concessions too.

Management should not demean their workers, and vice-versa. Schoneye is right, there needs to be mutual respect from both sides.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

I know a few that "were" in a Union once,and admit today,they really priced themselves right out of the market back then. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Oshawa Plant #1 shut this morning...#2 Plant most likely going down later today..
Here's a link from the Canadian side of things..

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStor...W_strike_070925

~ Pete

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

As stated before, this gets down to the healthcare/retiree payments that GM is obiligated to pay for seemingly forever...I heard last week that the amount of $$$ that GM has to add into each and every car to offset the benefits is already *more* than the msrp of several of the Asian automobiles...that's *before* the price of material, labor, profit, etc. I forget the exact number, but I wanna say it was like $13k-$15k or something silly like that? Regardless, that's a heck of a head start for the competition, considering *all* of the Big 3 are forced to now compete in a global market...

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Strikes, plant shut downs, --- delay on the new Camaro or maybe none at all ??? Employee costs are becoming a staggering event with increasing cost of health care, costs of workers compensation, contracts with no-show jobs and let's not forget the large CEO paychecks and bonus packages. Contracts in corporate America - Union and Non-Union boils down profit and what the employer can justly payout. Maybe if both sides contracted & submitted to binding arbitration these events could be avoided saving all a ton of money.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Sounds to me like the workers are raising with a 10 high. Hopfully GM wont call.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Maybe some folks who are closer to the action will know, but why are the big 3 'required' to pay health benefits for life? Is this from a prior agreement, or a federal requirement? If this issue is breaking the company, then stop doing it - the steel industry did it, it hurts but it's better than bankruptcy!

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

I expect the Health care issue is a BIG part of why GM's been putting more of their future into Canadian plants like Oshawa Ontario...basic health care here is covered by the Provincial Health Care plan..

~ Pete

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

The Doraville plant shut down yesterday. It makes a lot of sense to strike at a plant that is closing in 11 months anyway.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Staying on the union theme, but moving to a different industry. My Father, both brothers, all airline pilots. My old man flew in the heyday of $2000 first class seats and 350k a year Captains pay for flying 65 hours a month, a fabulous deal and somewhat sustainable with that kind of revenue flow (cheap gas, all the first class seats you could sell and a ton of flight capacity). Unions had power AT THAT TIME. My oldest brother was on the tail end of the glory days at the start of his career, now he is flying 85-90 hours a month, making HALF the pay that he did 10 YEARS AGO, his company went bankrupt (US Air) they took his pension (bleeded the entire account actaully) and replaced it with some POS that he wont be able to live on AND he is done flying at 60. How much power did the Union have during this debacle?, ZERO, bankruptcy neutered what was left of the union. Albeit tough times changed the entire landscape, but the bottom line is that there is just not enough revenue to justify " fat, old school" union contracts eventhough some of the Unions think they still are entitled to it. People don't care if they have to sit on a milk crate to China, if it is cheaper, they are buying it. My brother is lucky he still has a job, his opinion "I saw this coming a long time ago" I am niether pro or con union, but you have to adapt to what the landscape gives you and right now it ain't good for domestic auto makers

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Rob, one of the reasons a person like me went to work in a plant like this at 19 is that you were guaranteed these benifits through contract negotiations, and settlements. Alot of us would have gone else where and worked at construction jobs, or more appealing work, but these were jobs with specific negotiated guarantees that paid good wages to support a family on one income. A mom got to raise the kids, not a child care provider. And with things like 30 and out, you had a chance to reach retirement at a reasonable age, with a few years left to enjoy life. Companies don't just give you benifits. Much of the reason goes back to Henry Ford who paid good wages, and benifits to keep a well trained, and consistent work force.
If you work for a company like GM, and are guaranteed benifits at retiremant time through duly negotiated contractual agreements, how would you feel at say 68 years old, they half your retirement check, and cut, or drop your health care? Especially, if like at GM, they didn't adequetly fund their retirement pension fund. At 68 are you going to go back into the work force? This becomes a social issue then as the tax payer is probably going to have to pick up some of the cost.
As to fairness and cooperation between union, and companies, I remember in one of the last contracts we had, the company was making money hand over fist, but wanted us to take concesions. They said that due to global competition that they couldn't afford to negotiate any increases in anything. So the union negotiators went back and said,if we take concessions, will you lower the price of the product to give us a leg up on the competition, keep employment stable and increase market share? They basicly said to piss off, and they'd handle corporate pricing strategy.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

What do you guys think re: the stock market and how the dynamic of less for more plays into this discuusion.

When the hurricane hit here, the local energy company (Entergy - publicly traded) got a government bailout because "It was not fair to the stockholders".

Thoughts?

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

If a worker can be replaced by someone willing to work for less,and/or by someone that would give the company less headaches.Its only a matter of time before that worker is replaced.Cant blame ANY company for that. They are in it for profit,not to ensure security for a lifetime [that not many in this country get] to everyone that walks through thier doors.

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Chuckie....Were you not in a union at onetime when you were playing basketball? I agree with all you guys the unions can't demand what they once did when we were strong and profitable in this country. We also can NOT give up the whole ship because big corporations are making big profits. How can anybody blame a worker for trying to get ahead and support his family? I also believe that alot of the problem is politics and how so few American wokers union or non-union have to support the big paychecks and overhead of the CEO, white collar office and managment staff that is basically overhead. Yes unions caused alot of their own problems but big business in a sense helped sell them down the river. In my eyes corporate America has won. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif Outsource work and jobs, break the unions,cut back healthcare and pension plans and most Human Resource depts. do very little for their employees anymore. Don't dare speak up or there will be consequences. I can't believe the blue collar Union people are really hurting the country anymore. Maybe 14% of the work force is Union?? I feel America had a real strong 150 years of industrial and economic dominance know it is time for another country to control the market. Only problem most of the imports in my opinion are 2nd rate. So in a nut shell everybody has to do what they think is best for them and their families. I, along with my family will always support the working man and the Unions. Would not be where I am if I was not an IBEW Union member for 30 years. So..... Lets go have a nice cold American https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif and make sure our kids are secure for the future. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

It all comes back to our greedy politicians. Why not impose a tariff on imported goods? Electronics, automobiles, etc? Make an even playing field for our USA made stuff?

Re: GM Workers on Strike
 

Because it's *never* an even playing field, fastvelle...the USA is held to a higher standard than any other country in the world, right or wrong...but that's leaving too many concessions to countries that are now competitors, and it's biting us in the rear.

Schonye: I don't blame you a bit! I'd have done the same thing...sounds familiar to the locals & the railroad around this country. I keep telling the younger hirees to cash in while they can, get the benefits, pay for a house and/or land, while they can. Because who knows what can/will happen down the road? But it seems to me like there has to be a point of diminishing return with the employees (management & labor both) asking for more while business/profits are taking a dive?