I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

If i buy this , and restore it or rebody it as you would Prob call it would the car be considered restored ? or Black listed as a fake or should have been salvage junk car ?
your opinion is needed
Joe

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...A:IT&ih=017

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

As long as future buyers know exactly how the car was built, then there shouldn't be a problem. They will set the price based on this. The problem is, down the road someone is just going to conveniently forget to tell the next buyer how the car was built. Then the fun begins. If I were selling the car, I would want a signed affidavit from the buyer that he has full knowledge of how the car was built, just so that someone doesn't come back on me later.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

keith thats great advice , i see what ya mean i didn't even think about the affidavit part .

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

You can do whatever you like, I am quite sure it is already in the CRG data base and is already to some degree blacklisted
By the way the full Vin# looks like 12379N594786, I copied the picture off the EBAY add and blew it up, you can see right through the guys attempt to pencil out the last three digits.
There would be knothing wrong ?? with building this car, but there will always be the record of it being on EBAY .

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

No matter what the idiot who is posting that auction says, it is a Federal Felony to rebody a car: i.e. remove the VIN, no matter if it is still attached to a couple pounds of old metal, and attach it to a body it was not originally assigned to.

Let me make it a bit clearer:

THIS VIN IS FLAGGED AND IF THE CAR IS "REBODIED," IT WILL BE SEIZED AND THE OWNER WILL BE ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH MULTIPLE FELONIES, ALONG WITH ANYONE WHO HELPED HIM CUT AND PASTE THE VIN ONTO ANY OTHER BODY.

Hopefully this is clear to everyone now.

If you want to buy that carcass and try to restore what is left of it into a new car, you can try and do that, but dont even think of removing that VIN and mounting it on another body. Personally (and in my legal opinion), I think you would be crazy to attempt it. You dont need the legal headaches following you, and the car, forever.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I seriously doubt that. It is still a car at this point, although maybe it shouldn't be. I think there was a thread on this car from about a year ago, the last time this car was on Ebay.


Jason

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt that. It is still a car at this point, although maybe it shouldn't be. I think there was a thread on this car from about a year ago, the last time this car was on Ebay.


Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

...and I believe I left the same free legal advice last time too. I am just trying to keep fellow enthusiasts out of trouble.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

steve i never said anything about removing the Vin or trim tag .
your close enough do you want to inspect the restoration if i buy it >??

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I think if you kept the car and disclosed it if you ever did sell it there wouldnt be a problem.. Granted the law says its illegal but Ive never heard of them seizing a car (maybe if it was in some legal battle or something) but we all know of some rebodied cars that have been floating around forever and be sold and advertised that way.. and no ones came in and taken them away or arrested people..

Just gotta why would you pay that kinda of money for basically a trim tag in the first place?? Theres nothing left of that thing.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
steve i never said anything about removing the Vin or trim tag .
your close enough do you want to inspect the restoration if i buy it >??

[/ QUOTE ]

Any time someone uses the term "rebody," that is a legally defined term that presumes that they took the VIN off of one vehicle and placed it on another.

As for the cars never having been siezed or anyone arrested, I could probably arrange an interview for you of one of several upstanding citizens who are either now, or have been in prison for that crime.

The National Insurance Crime Bureau NICB (the same people who keep records on where every car built was originally shipped) specialize in investigating this crime and once they gather the evidence of a VIN swap, they forward that info to the criminal auto theft investigtaors in the nearest state or Federal law enforcement agency for that area.

I'm not here on my high horse trying to lecture anybody, I am just giving you the information you should have to make an educated decision on a possible purchase. My advice would be to let this car go and find something with no legal baggage that will follow it forever. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

My neighbor drug an X22 car out of the woods here in jersey a few years back... had discs, booster, mounts, centerlink, console, shifter and the rustiest body i have ever seen with no rear or doors. I believe he got around 2200 for it....

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

i have never restored a car before. i have owned quite a few though. what happens if a guy with a camaro needs the piece below the windshield replaced? is it ok to remove the vin and reattach it to the replaced metal? this seems to be rotted on a lot of early camaros. what do you guys do about the special rivits? mike

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have never restored a car before. i have owned quite a few though. what happens if a guy with a camaro needs the piece below the windshield replaced? is it ok to remove the vin and reattach it to the replaced metal? this seems to be rotted on a lot of early camaros. what do you guys do about the special rivits? mike

[/ QUOTE ]

That does not contradict anything Steve said. With your example, you would still be putting the VIN back on the same car. Although Steve makes a valid point regarding the laws associated with removing VIN tags, there is a grey area when it comes to rebuilding cars or trucks. Walk into a reputable body shop these days and you will see roll-over pick-ups getting cabs from 'doner' trucks. This means that the VIN of one vehicle is used on the cab of another which insurance companies regularily do to avoid writing off a vehicle. Completely legal.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]

The National Insurance Crime Bureau NICB (the same people who keep records on where every car built was originally shipped) .......

[/ QUOTE ]


Fyi, Almost every car built....I know of a few that are not in the NICB system...How or why? It's a topic that was discussed at SCRX over a few https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif


Steve

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

So steve you never answered the direct question , If i take that cowl and frame and rebuild a body on it . would that be acceptible ? What Legal Firm are you associated with ?
i called my lawer just for hahas and he said they do it everyday in Body shops , as mentioned above .
Remember , i'm not attacking anyone i Value any and all input . It seems at this piont its to controversial to get involved . If it had been more positive i would buy it .

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Greetings,
This is a bit of a rant so please excuse me if it doesn't meet with your approval.
IMHO If you build a car off of that chunk of scrap, its still a car, and still a valid vin and even though its arguably not as desireable as one that "just" needed floors, trunk, quarters, fenders,and roof panels,and dash top and door skins (which is common and needed for most 1969 Camaros being restored nowadays), and by the way,not frowned upon.

Whats the difference? Unless your car is a complete original rust free example it is in some degree "re-bodied" anyway.
People will know the history of this vin now since its advertized on a national basis, so nobody will be able to fool anyone(read actual enthusiast or one that pays an actual enthusiast to check out the history) who does their homework on this car.

Is it sad? yes. Illegal? doubtful. Studid of the owner to cut off and chuck the rest of the car? yes, but in the eighties, when muscle car values were realistic, and nobody was worried about being finacially ruined by a crappy purchase of a musclecar, re-bodies were common place as opposed to trying to find nos body panels. It was cheaper and easier to find a clean body to use off another car. Most people didn't have the capability or parts availability for panel replacements at home, so doing a body swap was cheaper and easier. The cars weren't worth enough to justify the body shop charges involved in multi panel replacent.
Body shops did and continue to use scrap bodies to re-body damaged cars. I think how it works in body shops is as long as you have the paperwork and ownership on both cars involved you should be free from legal problems,but morally and in the interest of fair play, one should disclose the extent of the body panel replacement to the purchaser.
Maybe someone from the forum is in the bodyshop business and can enlighten us on how its done, but I think there is a requirement of paperwork of some kind..

The transferral of vins is only illegal because of auto theft reasons. Period. The government could really care less if your car was originally a 250 six or a ZL1 model for vin purposes. What they DO care about is a STOLEN car being re-vinned to hide its origins. The only other reason to get in hot water would be in the case of fraud charges, which I believe would be a civil case between seller and buyer of the vehicle if proven to be sold on false pretences. So, the only people who DO care about legitimate rebodies are people spending large amounts of coin for collector cars.
By the letter of the law, you can't swap vins. so, you could be in some paperwork tangle, but when the dust settles, I highly doubt someone gets thrown in jail for swapping vin tags between 2 cars HE owns and has the documents for.

Just to be clear !!this is ONLY MY OPINION, and is not stated as anything else but an opinion. I'm NOT a lawyer NOR am I a government official, so don't do anything based on this opinion!!!.
I get a little tired of rants of inpurities in what amounts to a grossly impure hobby in this day and age. With all the money involved people are willing to go to great lengths to produce "numbers matching", and fake cars etc. The sad thing is, its fueled by the people willing to fork out huge cash for these collector cars when they themselves aren't even enthusiasts, just rich people with a hankerin for whats in vogue right now. Personally It doesn't bother me to see a few of these idiots get burned. Maybe then the muscle car hobby can return to the real enthusiasts. Lets face it, if the values of these cars were lower, the people who care, would know what they are looking at anyway.
Also, to add more fuel to the fire, I'd be really surprised if more than 5 or 10% of all existing muscle cars are original and numbers matching to any reasonable degree, with some of the most desireable being the worst offenders.

This hobby is currently easily one of the most corrupt, and its definately a buyer beware situation. Heres the safe bet. Assume the worst of any vehicle purchased, and don't buy muscle cars as investments or trophies,spend the time to research a car before buying, and last but not least, buy them because you love them. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Mark

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Mark very well said!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I will add a 2nd to what Mark said.

---------------------
Chris
1966 Yenko Stinger YS-070
1967 Yenko Stinger YS-199
Southeast of Disorder

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

well put Mark , in my eyes i wanted to save a x22 Daytona yellow car , thats it !

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

$5,177.77 was what it went for with 30 bids....

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

yea .. and i didn't even jump in

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what the idiot who is posting that auction says, it is a Federal Felony to rebody a car: i.e. remove the VIN, no matter if it is still attached to a couple pounds of old metal, and attach it to a body it was not originally assigned to.

Let me make it a bit clearer:

THIS VIN IS FLAGGED AND IF THE CAR IS "REBODIED," IT WILL BE SEIZED AND THE OWNER WILL BE ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH MULTIPLE FELONIES, ALONG WITH ANYONE WHO HELPED HIM CUT AND PASTE THE VIN ONTO ANY OTHER BODY.

Hopefully this is clear to everyone now.

If you want to buy that carcass and try to restore what is left of it into a new car, you can try and do that, but dont even think of removing that VIN and mounting it on another body. Personally (and in my legal opinion), I think you would be crazy to attempt it. You dont need the legal headaches following you, and the car, forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hoping njsteve can clarify what the difference is between this, and a car that needs to have every panel replaced due to rust and/or accident damage.

I'll bet that 90% of the cars owned by members on this board have had panels replaced and/or are not wearing the original drivetrain and/or have had major components restamped. So, what's the difference?

I think for you to go out and get into somebody's business is really just plain sad. So what if someone is going to buy that car and "rebuild" it. Why do you care? If anything, it's another Camaro out there, so it keeps visibility for yours and mine in the form of advertising.

I find your lecture on fraud to be preposterous. Really, I'm sure our penal system needs to have old guys that have rebodied cars in federal prison with murderers.

Maybe you should focus your efforts on some real criminals-- Like our current presidential administration...

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

If i were you i would find something in better shape, by the time you screw with this heap your going to be into it for more than its worth. Then your still left with a questionable car at best!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Here are the legal facts, not opinions on some of the above comments:

1) A VIN tag is an absolutely sacred item under the law. You can change quarter panels, roofs, subframes, engines, rears, transmissions, tissue dispensers, etc., to your hearts content but NEVER mess with a VIN tag. Heck, you can even swap out your cowl tag listing the original color and options on your car and you wont face criminal charges. (You might get sued in a civil court later if you sell the car to someone and misrepresent it as something it isn't but that is not the same a criminal charges. (civil court = money penalty, versus criminal court = jail time penalty)

2) If you took that 1/3 of a car and welded on new parts to it, it would be OK under the laws of the state and federal system. You may have a problem with the title not being flagged as a salvage title but that is for another discussion.

3) If you took the VIN tag off of that 1/3 of a car and riveted it on to a donor body you are committing a crime at both the state and federal level.

4) Yes, there are a lot of body shops that do cab swaps when a truck is rusty but they do this out of ignorance of the law not necessarily out of criminal intent. But the fact is it still violates the VIN laws. There are no "VIN swaps for restoration purposes" exceptions in these laws, though that might be a perfect issue for SEMA and other big lobbying entities to take up with Congress. (When Congress isn't so busy not doing other stuff and blaming each other across the aisle for not, not doing what they are supposed to not be doing)

5) I dont write the laws, I am just telling you what the facts are. You are correct in thinking that there are probably thousands of these cars out there and thousands more being done while we sit here and type away, but the fact is those cars are ticking time bombs in a criminal/legal sense. They can be siezed as contraband items at any time by any law enforcement officer who has reasonable suspicion that it was a VIN swap. Imagine buying a car, going to the DMV inspection lane and having the inspector just happen to be a Yenko.net and ebay officianado who has kept a list of these types of hulks and VINs selling on ebay...just waiting for the day when one of these "finished" cars pulls into his stall. I know of a couple of guys that keep tabs on ebay auctions just for this purpose. You may go home at the end of the day but the car will stay there and most likely get crushed at the end of the legal proceedings: VIN swapped cars are never eligible for public auction based on safety issues. In the end you're out a car and will have to try and sue the guy you bought it from -good luck on recovering anything if he was a "backyard restoration technician."

6) As for the NICB not having all records, that is correct. They have records for the various plants that supplied them with their shipping records. Some plants did not have the records so they are not in their system.

7) Oh, and by the way, my lecture on fraud may be preposterous but that doesnt make it untrue. They dont send the Chop Shop/VIN Swap guys to the same facilities as murderers. They end going to lower level security institutions and end up playing tennis at minimum security camps with corrupt congressmen and senators. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

This from an 8 track tape cloner..

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
This from an 8 track tape cloner..

[/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

That's an alleged 8-track tape cloner to you. I havent successfully figured out how to get the original distorted noises to come out of the repli-tape yet. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Noticed the buyer bought a trim tag to 1965 Nassau Blue Vette back in May.......hhhmmm

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I think trucks are a little different than cars.Trucks are titled to the FRAME where a car is titled to the BODY!At least this is my understanding so please correct me if I am wrong.So actually a truck would not fall into this catagory by changing body parts!Maybe this is whay body shops do this with the trucks!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Actually..I am kind of impressed that the word preposterous actually got into a post here. There may be a prize for that...leme look around............nope no prize but a hell of a word.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I always liked flaucinaucinihilipilification myself. It refers to the process by which you determine something is useless. Here, I'll use it in a sentence:

"Bob's flaucinaucinihilipilification of his lawyer led to him saving a bunch of money in legal fees at the end of the year." https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think trucks are a little different than cars.Trucks are titled to the FRAME where a car is titled to the BODY!At least this is my understanding so please correct me if I am wrong.So actually a truck would not fall into this catagory by changing body parts!Maybe this is whay body shops do this with the trucks!

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, you may be on to something with the big rigs frame number registration thing. I was thinking he was refering to the average pickup truck which is registered to the dash VIN.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here are the legal facts, not opinions on some of the above comments:

1) A VIN tag is an absolutely sacred item under the law. You can change quarter panels, roofs, subframes, engines, rears, transmissions, tissue dispensers, etc., to your hearts content but NEVER mess with a VIN tag. Heck, you can even swap out your cowl tag listing the original color and options on your car and you wont face criminal charges. (You might get sued in a civil court later if you sell the car to someone and misrepresent it as something it isn't but that is not the same a criminal charges. (civil court = money penalty, versus criminal court = jail time penalty)


[/ QUOTE ]

Some states will allow you to remove a VIN tag if necessary to repair a car. Believe some require you to have a state trooper or similar official there to verify.

You're correct that federal law also addresses VIN removal; have also looked that up, but don't recall what the exact prohibitions were.

Anyone purchasing this car or a similar one would need to be familiar with the ramifications of state and federal law before purchasing a car like this one. Certainly think it would be permissible to build a car around the remnants of this one, assuming the VIN tag was not removed from the cowl of this car and placed on a "donor" body.

Scott

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

If you ask me, I do not see a "car" in this auction. Just a part of a car with the tags/numbers attached to it.

If someone is looking to build a car, there are thousands of better options out there to choose from. In this case, it is just to build a "real" BB car. If it were a non X-code, 44 or even 11, it would be scrap metal. All someone would want are the tags and hiddens.

I know there isnt a clear-cut line about what is considered a car and what isnt. But this one isnt near that line IMO.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

You see RamRod Dave, you're the most correct yet (besides me, of course)... It shouldn't make any difference regarding building what you want, and not paying attention to numbers. Look at the Porsche guys; they build what they want out of early 911 tubs (I digress...).

The problem is that the Chevy hobby rewards this activity (the return to original) via monetary return. Thus, there is a built-in mindset to "F" people, or at least play the shell-game, in regards to what's under the paint. It's not like this is a secret, so my problem with njsteve is that a well-executed re-body is no different than replacing all of the rusted panels around the cowl, and then calling that maneuver an accurate restoration.

It's all bollocks, really...

So at that point, what's the sense in getting all bent-up about laws, and I don't know how you could say that someone re-bodying a car is even illegal. All Camullets started out the same car from a platform perspective (except for 6 or 8-cyl designations by VIN), so realistically, there isn't a difference between a base motor V-8 car and an L-89, except for what's hung on the car after it is partially-assembled. In this el-cheapo assembly-line sense, there is no mistaking a Camullet for a 427 Cobra, nor should there be any concern about how someone decides to put one together 40 years later.

The laws are made to keep people from stealing 2004 Jeep Cherokees and Honda Accords, and re-VINing them, and then selling to someone as a used car. Lumping old cars into this classification is ridiculous, preposterous even, and why would law enforcement even care? I'd like to see someone try to find law enforcement that would give a hoot regarding a '68 Camullet re-body... A lawyer maybe, but even that is a stretch.

It's not like the Camullet re-bodyer is running a chop-shop or a criminal syndicate.

That being said, once again, isn't someone just re-assembling a car from parts when re-bodying, just the same as if every panel is replaced on a car? It makes no sense to not think about it like this. Taking this further, you guys talk about "Black-listing", etc... That's really none of your business, is it? Why stick your nose into someone else's business? I don't understand...

njsteve has been officially deputized by the VIN po-po... The "Fife" of the VIN!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Midas, I believe there is a bit of flaucinaucinihilipilification in the content of your last post. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
The laws are made to keep people from stealing 2004 Jeep Cherokees and Honda Accords, and re-VINing them, and then selling to someone as a used car. Lumping old cars into this classification is ridiculous, preposterous even, and why would law enforcement even care? I'd like to see someone try to find law enforcement that would give a hoot regarding a '68 Camullet re-body... A lawyer maybe, but even that is a stretch.

It's not like the Camullet re-bodyer is running a chop-shop or a criminal syndicate.

That being said, once again, isn't someone just re-assembling a car from parts when re-bodying, just the same as if every panel is replaced on a car? It makes no sense to not think about it like this. Taking this further, you guys talk about "Black-listing", etc... That's really none of your business, is it? Why stick your nose into someone else's business? I don't understand...

njsteve has been officially deputized by the VIN po-po... The "Fife" of the VIN!

[/ QUOTE ]

1) If they are all the same car then I should be able to get an original one of the 69 ZL1s for the same price as one of the 100,000 plus 6 cyl cars. -It's about the pedigree and provenance. That is what makes the cars, or any antique, or collectible item, valuable. It is the ability to verify the pedigree of an object back to it's birth. If it doesn't matter to you that your car was an original COPO, and it may or may not be now, that's fine, but it doesn't give you the legal right to recreate/rebody one and pass it off as the real deal. That is what the law is there to protect against. VIN swapping is a form of counterfeiting in essense, if not in reality.

2) Just because it is far easier to take the VIN off of one body and rivet it onto another one, instead of expensively restoring and replacing every single rusted original panel doesn't make it legal, just easy. If restoring these cars was easy everybody would have a 1000 point car out there.

3) I can put it this way: I could paint you a copy of a Van Gogh, slap on a duplicate signature and try to sell it to you for $17,000,000, but that doesn't make it worth what a real Van Gogh is worth. And I would definitely get prosecuted for that efort.

4) As for the law being directed at newer cars only, you would be very surprised at the reality of the situation. It is rare to see an old fashioned, chop shop'n, VIN swapp'n, car stealin' case get prosecuted at the federal level. It's all about the value of these cars now and the press coverage. If someone rebodies a $800,000 ZL1 by taking the VIN off of a crushed, burnt hulk and just slaps that VIN on a 6 cyl body, that is basically a "shooting fish in a barrel" criminal case for a federal prosecutor. They would be foaming at the mouth at the prospect of being in the news for one of their cases. It's an easy conviction with a whole lot of publicity potential (read that as career advancement for those lawyer types). Just look at the publicity that Barrett Jackson Ramchargers Hemi Cuda case got, and that is just a civil case, not a criminal one. (Even though it's not a VIN case but a defamation/misrepresentation case)

I am more than happy to take my official oath of office as Barney "Anti-VIN Swappin" Fife.

Barney sez: "Nip VIN Swappin in the bud"

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...68a/bcrawl.jpg


Nip it, Nip it, Nip it!!!
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...arney-Fife.jpg

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

IF I would have bought this, I would have just sent it to the goodmark installation center in Georigia. For +/-$15,000.00 they will send you back an entire car built around that firewall (less finish body work). No VIN or TTag swapping needed. No violation of any laws.

http://www.goodmarkindustries.com/GIC.htm


Personally, if it is a L78, then I think that it is well worth saving.

Rich

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Interestingly enough, you are probably correct on that interpretation.

I like the "no walk in customers please" on their website. I wonder if they have a drive up window? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Steve ,
there you go again , your one track mind is running straight forward .
I never said ( Never ) said i was taking the Vin off that body , i wanted to rebuild it from the cowl back .
Ok did you read that right ? rebuild it from the cowl back .
can you say challenge ? something new to attempt ?
save a car ? restore them don't crush them ..