1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

In the april edition of Hemmings motor news on page 396,there is a guy that is advertising 1970 chevelle buildsheets to your specifications. This fellow is out of Rockledge Florida and his name is Jim Clemens. Does anyone know this guy? I wonder how many ls6 coupes and converts he has done that will be all over the place for sale. This is becoming very sad!

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Chad,

When there is so much money in the balance, many less than
worthy people rationalize making fake documentation and/or
transplanting VIN & trim tags. It's just money to them.

They're really no different than the guys selling swamp
land for developments, stock swindling, etc.. Maybe they
are the same guys, just a new swindle. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

It's about time they came out with these buildsheets--I've got a '70 buick that I was thinking of dropping a 454 in and just needed some docs to show it was a 1 off LS6/B.................

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

I've said this in another post, but very soon we will see services being offered that will authenticate documents such as build sheets. Try as they may, the fakers just cannot duplicate the composition of paper and ink from 35-40 years ago and slip it by people who have expertise in examining documents. The stained, wrinkled, and "aged" sheets may fool us hobbyists and our untrained eyes, but I suspect today's papers and laser/inkjet inks will stick out like a sore thumb under close observation with the techniques the document examiners use.

All it takes is someone with good knowledge of buildsheet codes and content partnering with some of these professional document examiners, and you've got a worthwhile and profitable side-business. With the prices that today's musclecars are bringing, I'm guessing plenty of people would be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars or so for assurance that a buildsheet was the real deal. And I'm guessing most of the fakers would backpedal if they were told that a buyer wanted to make their deal contingent on professional examination of the buildsheet.

Any takers? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif There are a few guys on this site that come to mind https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

The company I work for does historical document preservation. They use a marker that detects acid and ph levels in old documents. Every old document that is not preserved properly has acid in it. The point is that when I am looking at a vehicle's documentation I bring one of those markers. You put a small mark on a page or sheet if it turns yellow it has acid in it, if it turns purple it is acid free. The guys tell me that documents from the 90's forward are usually acid free. Just about everything pre 90's has some acidosis (spell check).

The marks disappear in about a half hour, this is a useful tool. If a buildsheet is pulled out of the car when new and inserted in an acid free protector then that would be the exception to the rule, but how often has that been done? I will get the name and company that makes these pens and post on Monday.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

MIke , That would be great. Chad there's also a guy om ebay advertising all the time called "69posi" or something like that and he advertises all the time. says there for "DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY"........hey lets not kid ourselves.He advertises that he can age them for you, fool the experts etc etc for $1100 US.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Jim Clemens the Corvette guy? He is an ebay hawk for original P-o-P booklets, owner's manuals, dealer manuals, etc. An NCRS name for sure. What goes around comes around.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

[ QUOTE ]
MIke , That would be great. Chad there's also a guy om ebay advertising all the time called "69posi" or something like that and he advertises all the time. says there for "DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY"........hey lets not kid ourselves.He advertises that he can age them for you, fool the experts etc etc for $1100 US.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to say it but this guy is from canada and has been doing it for many many years.He makes others look like they were done by Boy Scouts.Unfortunately I have seen a some of his work and it is getting better and better. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gifWord is he is actually being coached by a expert who is also a site visitor but I should not say that since I really don't know just something I have heard. What I do know is someone has been helping him over the past two years especially on the chevelle ones.
I honestly don't think any more other than checking the aged paper would anyone be able to tell some from actual. One of the newest features I have heard about is his modification of a original which would even throw the aging of the paper out the window.When you check his feedback it is scary to see how many of these packages he sells.
We also have the cowl/vin tag expert up here that has been killing the vet guys for years. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gifNow his stuff I am not sure who would be able to tell it from original.He has to run out of Gm blanks sometime I would think.
If it is fraud why do so many know of these guys and nothing is being done.This goes back many many years.I have nevr purchased anything off either of them but know those who have and have been contacted quite a few times since I joined this site looking for their info of which I didnot provide. The trim tag guy is also on e-bay but very very rarely. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

It would be great if one of those markers were made for buildsheets that they use on paper money. Sounds kind of dumb right now,but if you could buy one for 10 bucks and when you look at a car you could use it and it told you one way or another if the docs were fake or real,that would be great. I know that is a tall order as with paper money,it is detecting the ink that know one can get there hands on so it would be a lot harder to produce such a marker for buildsheets that were made with regular ink,but somehow test the paper as that has to be one of the harder things to fake.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Maybe the gentleman who has come on this board at times representing the law firm below might offer his thoughts on how they approach this in the case of fake buildsheets. Is it up to the seller in a case like this to be able to prove fraudulent action or does your law firm have sources to aid?

http://www.dcdlaw.net/carfraud.htm

I would have some concern sending a buildsheet in the mail to someone to verify if it were mine being sent. Who's responsible if it is lost or damaged?

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Mean't to say "is it up to the buyer" ......not the seller.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have some concern sending a buildsheet in the mail to someone to verify if it were mine being sent. Who's responsible if it is lost or damaged?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a valid concern, but this sort of practice has been happening for decades with rare/valuable paper items such as postage stamps. These are regularly sent through the mail or other shipping services to organizations that perform certifications. Insurance, tracking, and signature releases are the norm. Items being lost or damaged are a rare exception.

I'm guessing that sending important/valuable/sensitive documents via FedEx, etc. is probably fairly safe these days.

What do the Mopar guys do when Galen inspects their stuff? Does he only do in-person inspections?

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Actually Galen does 2 types , 1 is a decode of the original cowl tags, docs etc where you mail/fax or email the info to him for +/- $300 and /or the 2nd is a physical inspection that is several hrs long and fairly pricy. I think most car guys try to gather a few mopars together to split the cost for him to come visit ie Flights, hotels,meals etc. it ads up quickly.I've had him do a 69 Charger where we just sent him pretty well every piece of paper we had on the car, pics etc and he send us his report.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

I think this is why the GOOD in the know cars always bring big big bucks and stay in a circle of guys in the know. Its bad out there I think owner history (talking to an original owner) is one of the most important things there is but thats hard to get with cars being passed around so much.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Just another reason original unrestored cars bring BIG dollars... there are no excuses they are what they are... no made up crap... no fake docs... no added BIG engines, Bucket seats, Good colors, & etc...
Just my .02... but hey what do I know??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Ok as promised here is the name of the company that manufactures the PH testing pen. Lineco, the item number is L533-0023. Their website is www.lineco.com or you can use the link to purchase one www.redimat.com/products/accessories/l533-0023-lineco-ph-testing-pen.html

It's not a definitive method but the people I work with tell me that all pre-90's documents that have been improperly stored should have a PH level that is really low indicating that the paper is acidic. I think a build sheet that has been sitting under the carpet, seat, gas tank or underlayment etc. fits the improperly stored scenario.

The guys I work with also stated that you need to look at the paper under a high powered jewelers loop and look at the texture and grain of the paper of known original documents. Todays paper has a lot of recycled content and looks different under a loop or microscope.

Also make sure you store your documents in acid free folders and proctective sheets in order to preserve them.

I am going to be talking with one of the conservsation and preservation companies today or tomorrow and I will ask them about any quick and easy method to determine a documents age.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

DaJudge, that's all fine and good, but since the deterioration of paper is a simple chemical reaction, it is fairly easy to make new paper look, and chemically-test, as old. It's been going on for quite some time in regards to art, historical writings, musical scores, etc., that people have successfully forged in the past.

I remember watching something regarding a medieval document that was tested as real, and the person that forged then discussed how he did it. Quite amazing, really.

So, yes, original cars are much safer, but as has been mentioned, that still doesn't guarantee anything, as there's simply too much money in it for 100% believability. It's really too bad...

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

I agree with you King, I mentioned above it's not going to be a definitive check, but it gives you another tool to help you make the most educated decision you can.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

I worked in the GM print area when I started working for GM and one of the forms I printed were build sheets.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Oh boy there is gonna be a run on 6250 BPI tapes created on 3420 mainframe tape drives and Telex impact printers... better check who's buying the stuff on ebay... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I worked in the GM print area when I started working for GM and one of the forms I printed were build sheets on XXX brand XXX printers (XXX denotes printer brand and type of printer). All print files were created on 6250 BPI tapes created on 3420 mainframe tape drives (which we still have in storage) then they were brought to me to print. My job was to make sure the correct font print band was used and that the 1st line of the print record started in the correct place on the form and that the RPO codes were lined up in their respective boxes. We printed everything for GM including Cheques. I didn't specify the printer information for the obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gifWere these for US or canadian cars?? I have not seen a US style build sheet in a canadian car other than that piece of strip hog ringed to the under side of the seat.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

These were printed for Canadian cars. And of course you wouldn't find a US sheet in a Canadian car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif
Even if you had an IBM or whatever printer from the past, good luck making it work unless you have one of these.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0054387/photogallery

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's about time they came out with these buildsheets--I've got a '70 buick that I was thinking of dropping a 454 in and just needed some docs to show it was a 1 off LS6/B.................

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe you could probably get a million bucks for that https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

[ QUOTE ]
These were printed for Canadian cars. And of course you wouldn't find a US sheet in a Canadian car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif
Even if you had an IBM or whatever printer from the past, good luck making it work unless you have one of these.

Sorry to ask so many questions.I'm not looking at reproducing anything just trying to find out what the canadian ones looked like since I have never seen one in all the cars I parted any model other than that strips I refer to under the seat maybe 2 1/2 by 6" with some codes on it.
Also the reason I asked about the US sheets in the canadian cars I thought all ls-6's were made in the US and shipped up here so would they have had the Us build sheets.
There is a black ls-6 up here canadian car which the guy keeps swaring the build sheet he has was found in the car but it is like I would find in a us car.He would also be the type to pay the 1100 for a fake.
The help is appreciated https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Hey Joe,
Heres a couple examples of the Canadian buildsheets I have pulled from cars down here. They were all St. Therese built. I think the cars with the small strips were Oshawa built,(number 1 for 7th vin character).
Steve
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...7/IMGP8777.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...7/IMGP8778.jpg

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

When I said Canadian printed buildsheet, I mean the car was build in Canada. So as you mentioned, if I ordered a LS6 and it was shipped to Canada then, yes it would have a buildsheet from the US plant. I'm not sure if they looked different if the car was exported to Canada. I wouldn't go to that trouble if I made the decision about the build sheet form number.

I have a couple of small sheets from a 70 SS396/350 Canadian car, but it's not a build sheet that I'll post later.

Mmm, those sheets above look familiar to the blanks I have when I used to print them. I still remember aging paper in the oven for a public school project.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

Thanks Guys. I am ok now after seeing the pictures. Most of the cars we had and still have except one were Oshawa built which would explain why I was seeing the strips.I have seen the remains of a couple of the ones like you had posted Steve but did not think they were a build sheet since they were so in complete now I know.
So different up here we just send the tag data and get the gm docs so never focused on these.
Thanks again for the help.
If I can find it I have a trim tag that will blow your mind off a 427 caprice.never seen so many option codes on a tag in my life.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

I have a few cases involving fake buildsheets at this moment, but luckily all of them are so obvious that a chemical paper analysis is not needed (at least not at this point in the litigation).

Fake buildsheets are out there and as talked about on here many times we must be very leary when buying a car with a pile of documentation as, lets face it, how many of these car survive with all their original paperwork, not many!

Trying to get law enforcment and the state legislatures to do something about this is difficult as they usually don't have the where with all to effectively pursue these types of issues.

As I've said before its merely the old used car tricks that salesmen have pulled for generations rearing their heads again, in new ways.

Re: 1970 Chevelle buildsheet should be fraud!
 

If you purchase a car that is sold to you as the real McCoy and it turns out to be a close then take em to court and sue his azz off. Fraud isn't taken lightly. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif