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427 Mystery Engine
For drag racing the 1963 Chevys came with the new RPO-Z-11, the hot 427 that looked like the 409.
But the NASCAR 409 was dumped for a new engine that was not an RPO item, it was dubbed the Mk II. It was an all new everything, staggered-valve competition engine. The splayed-valve heads soon became known as the "Porcupine Heads". The engine was unique and required all new castings poured at the engine plant in Tonawanda, NY. The Mark II displaced 396 cubic inches. But due to a rule change by NASCAR in November 1962 which increased to a new limit of 7 liters the engine was redesigned to a longer stroke producing 427 cubic inches. This engine became known as the Mark IIS. The Mark IIS later became the Mark V introduced in 1965 as the 396 big block. My father was very into NASCAR and was friends with Louis Clements, who was partners with NASCAR driver Rex White. Rex was the only driver to have a super speedway win with the 409, the Dixie 400 at Atlanta. Rex was one of four drivers in the 1963 Daytona 500 with the 427. Rex finished 14th six laps down. He ran the 427 through the World 600 finishing second. Due to Chevrolet being in and out of racing and a total lack of parts he then switched to Mercury to finish the season. On a trip to visit the Clements imagine this 15 year old car nuts thrill to be able to go to Rex and Louis's garage to look at his cars!! The Mercury did nothing for me, it was the beat up Chevy with the mystery engine that I fell in love with. I have always been into big blocks since, love the sound of a high revving small block - but sorry no comparison! I hate to think what happened to this car, probably short tracked to oblivion. [b] Rex White Garage http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img098.jpg The Car - left out, just an old race car!! http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img100.jpg Check out the high dollar for the time tow rig http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img099.jpg At the Track http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img102.jpg David Pearson drove the #6 Hemi Dodge out of Cotton Owens Garage http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img097.jpg |
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Nice pics Glen, did you happen to get a shot of the 427 in the 63?
Steve |
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Check out the altered wheelbase on the Dodge. The front wheels were moved forward a couple inches. Same result as moving the engine back. If you aint cheatin' you aint trying!
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Nice pics Glen, did you happen to get a shot of the 427 in the 63?
Steve -------------------- Steve Thanks - I know I had some,unfortunately I have not run across any photos of the engine - if I do I'll definitely post it Glenn |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
Glenn,
Those are great shots. I'm glad that as a 15 year old you were so inclined to use your camera! I've been a student of the development of the MKII and MKIIs for some time, and your knowledge of that engine is impressive. Most people don't realize it began life as a 396 prior to the 7 liter rule. Mr. Dick Keinath, a senior engineer at Chevy, was responsible for the entirely new design. The engine shared the same pan rail as the MKI (409), but nothing else was interchangable with a MKI or the later MKIV. I hope you find more photos to share. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gifVerne |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
Those are some incredible photos of Rex's shop and car, the kind you just never see. Thank you very much for sharing them. We all really appreciate it. I had a couple of '61 bubbletop cars earlier in my life and read all I could find on Rex White. He sure did a lot for Chevrolet back then.
-Jon |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
Yeah, that Dodge is interesting. Note: headlights, windshield wipers, hood scoop,no rollbar (?), what looks a little more like street/drag tires? I don't know much about NASCAR history but did any of the Dodge/Plymouth teams actually run w/ the 2% suspension mods on the speedways?
It looks a little more like a drag car/street car to me. Anyone know any more about it? |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
That Dodge is definitely not a NASCAR racer, unfortunately I do not remember anything about it. NASCAR was involved in Drag Racing and that may have been a drag car out of Owens garage. If you look closely into the garage door (past the chained NO ADMITTANCE sign) the car inside looks as it may have the NASCAR decal package on the front fender. The front wheel also sits properly in the wheel well.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/dec006.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/dec007.jpg [b] SHOTS OF THE #6 IN 1966 http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/363018.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/363019.jpg PIT LANE 1963 http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/363021.jpg PACE CARS http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/363020.jpg |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
------How 'bout them Bonny convertables??? Very nice.........Bill S
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Old color racing pics from the early to mid '60s. Wow, those are neat and rare! The race Hemi was banned for Nascar Grand National racing in '65 and so Chrysler boycotted and sat out '65. That is when the Chrysler teams went drag racing and Nascar sanctioned drag racing events for them. Ford obviously dominated the '65 Nascar Grand National season. There was basically no competition. The tables turned in '66 when Chrysler brought out the street Hemi which made the Hemi legal again in Nascar Grand National. If I remember correctly, Ford attempted to combat the Hemi with the SOHC engine and Nascar said no deal so Ford boycotted the '66 season. Well, I hope I got that right. This was a bad stretch for Chevy so I wasn't paying as close of attention. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
Back to the 427 Mystery engine, a couple of years ago Chevy had one of these engines at the LA Auto Show so I had my picture taken with it. I'm not sure if it was owned by GM or if it was on loan from a private collector. Man, the exhaust manifolds on those engines are some of the neatest ever made. -Jon P.S. Got any pics from the '68 Daytona 24 hour or '67 Paul Revere 250? |
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The NASCAR races we went to were the Daytona 500 and the Southern 500 in Darlington. I have some shots from those years but they are probably up in NY. I'll be up there in a few weeks and look and see what I've got. Unfortunately most all of the shots are long range like the ones I posted. I was working with some pretty basic stuff back then, still do.
PM me if there is someone your looking for and I'll see what I can find. |
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http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/363018.jpg [/ QUOTE ] The glory days when race cars looked just like the street version! I wonder if that red Coronet had a Hemi? Great photos Dog. |
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[b] Johnny Rutherford with Smokey Yunick's "Mystery Engine" Chevrolet.
In qualifying for the 500, Rutherford was the fastest qualifier and set an astounding new record of 165.183 MPH. That was 6 MPH faster then Fireball Roberts Pontiac record of the previous year! - - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img121.jpg - - Junior Johnson called his similar factory backed "mystery Engine" Chevy "The most superior car the sport has ever seen." - - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img126.jpg - |
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Scary to think of a 165 mph run in those cars with that helmet! They did not know any better back then but it is scary to think about it today.
Rick |
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[b] Smokey and Rex Whites "Mystery Engine" Chevrolets at Daytona
Check out the Sportsmen cars behind pit wall - - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/apr15034.jpg - |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
[b]Junior Johnson's factory backed "Mystery Engine" Chevy
- - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/Day69028.jpg |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...tery-moto1.jpg - - 1963 CHEVROLET 427 Mark II “Mystery Motor” Engine An official American Manufacturers Association (AMA) ban on all factory sponsored racing activities was brought on by negative public reaction to performance cars being driven irresponsibly on the street. Despite the ban, Chevrolet engineers continued to supply independent race teams with the equipment needed to win races and keep their cars in the public eye. In 1962, General Motors engineer Dick Keinath designed an all-new engine that generated over 500 horsepower. Because it was delivered secretly to a few race teams, it became known as the “mystery motor.” Junior Johnson and Mickey Thompson were among the select few given these motors. After a race at Daytona in 1963, General Motors recalled these engines in order to demonstrate their sincerity about complying with the racing ban. But not all the engines were returned to the factory and a small number remained in private hands. It was not until 1966 that a 427 V-8 was not available to the public in a production Chevrolet. - Thanks to The PETERSEN ARCHIVE |
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Nice to see the photo DOG. Actually, Red Fox received most of the equipment, complete engines and parts. It's a shame that written history doesn't credit him more with being such a key player with Mr. Keinath's engine.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gifVerne PS: notice the FORD cast iron T-10 transmission behind it! Care to venture how that happened?? |
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I dig the exhaust headers... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif
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Actually, Red Fox received most of the equipment, complete engines and parts. [/ QUOTE ] Hey Verne, I believe you mean Ray Fox or was Sanford & Son well connected in the Nascar game back in the day? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif -Jon |
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YES>>>>>RAY Fox.....................DOOOH!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif
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[ QUOTE ]
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gifVerne PS: notice the FORD cast iron T-10 transmission behind it! Care to venture how that happened?? [/ QUOTE ] How?? |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
Dog,
The Ford transmissions were more popular back then because of their higher strength (high nickel gears, etc.) The Pontiacs even ran Ford Transmissions. Nascar's only rule was that it had to be a standard trans. I don't know who owns that engine assembly that is in the Petersen Museum but my guess is that is came from one of Smokey's auctions along with the trans. The front case is probably a GM case so it will bolt up to the Chevy bell. (or they may have just modified the Chevy bell, but I doubt it). I don't know who put that assembly together for display. It could even be a 3-spd. After all, they weren't drag racing... 3-spds were used a lot in those big cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gifVerne |
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Interesting Verne - Thanks
I found this Rex White decal & shipping label today while going through a box of some old Nascar stuff - - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img246.jpg - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...435/img247.jpg - |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
That is VERY cool......... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif
Now I have to ask you, just how did you happen to come by that? Did you or someone you know order parts from him? You don't have to answer if you'd rather not. I'm just curious. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/drool.gif Verne |
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Verne
I am not sure, but I would imagine I got it when I went to Louis & Rex's garage (see 1st post) Glenn |
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Verne I am not sure, but I would imagine I got it when I went to Louis & Rex's garage (see 1st post) I've said it before - I never throw anything away!!!!! Glenn [/ QUOTE ] |
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"I've said it before - I never throw anything away!!!!!
Glenn" Yeah, I try to adhere to that too. I've thrown things away that I've had for 25 years, thinking there's no reason to save it anymore.......then 2 weeks later something comes up and I need it!!! Oh well............. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif |
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How many "Mystery Engines" were built and how many are still known to exist?
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Paul,
The total number I've heard from a "reliable" source was 44, but I don't know where he got that number so I can't verify that. Nor do I know if that number includes the first MKII which was 396cid plus the MKIIs (stroked) to 427cid. I've spoken directly to Dick Keinath, who was the head engineer who designed it, and even he does not know how many were made in total. The design of that engine never really stopped until GM pulled the plug and told everyone their job was at risk if they did any more with that engine. So, there were several blocks and other parts that were still in a design and test loop. It's possible some of them got out the door too, so it's very difficult to determine a real total. I'm sure some of them were probably left there then scrapped when they turned the lights out. I know of 6 that exist today. In the heyday of '63 when they appeared on Nascar tracks, Ford complained and Nascar forced Chevy to give 2 of them to Ford, but I don't know who got them, or if they've ever turned up. Once the higher-ups in Chevy put a ban on racing activity, the engines were to be returned. I'm guessing that's what happened to most of them, but a few got squirreled away... Dick Keinath was an engineer ahead of his time then. He had ideas to further test the combustion efficiency of each cylinder by analyzing the exhaust gas, but that technology wasn't invented yet. He had planned on compensating deficiencies by either changing individual port design or with variable cam timing for each cylinder or by variable spark timing (which also was not invented yet). He went on to head the team that developed the MKIV, which we all know turned out pretty good! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif Verne |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
Verne
From what I've read Holman Moody were the ones who filed a protest and made NASCAR stick to the no experimental engine rule. Engines had to be available to the public, and NASCAR made Chevrolet sell two of those engines to Ford. These two engines were picked up at Smokey's by Holman Moody. Bubba Farr had a '63 with a 409 in it, and he said "If you're giving Holman Moody two of 'em, I ought to get one." They let him have an engine, but after the race, they took it back. Holman Moody never returned their engines. There were four 427's in the Daytona 500 - Johnny Rutherford driving for Smokey, Junior Johnson driving for Ray Fox, Rex White and Bubba Farr. Rex White had been testing the new engine at the Proving Grounds in Mesa since late '62 and had accumulated several blown engines and many parts which he brought to Daytona. Chevrolet didn't usually let their test cars out of the Proving Grounds, but the car that Smokey ran was actually the test car from Mesa that White had built. Smokey's relationship with Bunkie Knudsen got it out the back door. Rex White continued to run his 427 through the Memorial Day World 600 at Charlotte, then abandoned it due to a lack of parts. They had to reuse everything, including head gaskets! I don't know how long Smokey or Ray Fox ran theirs. Glenn |
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Yes, now that you remind me, all that is in Smokey's 3 volume book set. Interesting reading... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif He was pretty Pi--ed that he had to let 2 of them go to F--D!!!
Verne PS: J. Johnson was the last to run one until the spares ran out. Water pumps were a big reason for a lot of DNFs. And valve train breakage was also a big problem. It's funny when you look back.....the valve train was also the main weak link on all the early MKIVs. Those push rods just didn't like going sideways! (not to mention weak rockers) |
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[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I try to adhere to that too. I've thrown things away that I've had for 25 years, thinking there's no reason to save it anymore.......then 2 weeks later something comes up and I need it!!! Oh well............. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif [/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif So what did we learn? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif |
Re: 427 Mystery Engine
Your pics are always truly amazing dog!.
I seem to recall somewhere in the past reading that Ford or HM sold one or both the engines back when spares where so hard to get...anyone else remember this and is it BS maybe even started by Ford?. I was looking earlier today on eBay at a supposed Mystery motor intake..type 'O' casting and all.. Cool piece if real and he notes he has induction system parts too...can't say I care for some of the other stuff he deals in though!. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/63-chevy-...sspagenameZWDVW ~ Pete https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
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[b]Junior Johnson's factory backed "Mystery Engine" Chevy - - http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/Day69028.jpg [/ QUOTE ] That's G.C. Spencer in the second Ray Fox prepared Impala behind Junior Johnson. In all, there were five Mystery Motor Impalas in the '63 Daytona 500. Thanks again for posting these pics, Dog. They are awesome. -Jon |
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