which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

providing the original motor is no longer available for a car in restoration...

which is best?

a c.e. block, or a date correct engine?

opinions on values? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

with paperwork for a CE replacement... the CE... sans paperwork... go with the date correct Sufix code correct engine... of course without a vin on it if possible... of course this is just MHO

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

A date correct engine would be considered a restoration engine and best suited for judging. A CE engine is correct only if it is original to the car through GM warranty replacemant during its first 5 years or 50K miles of service.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

This is only my opinion but if you are going to build a show car you need to know the judging rules for the show involved.

I personally have a date and code correct block and date correct trans for my car. VINs don't match but it's the best I can do.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A date correct engine would be considered a restoration engine and best suited for judging.

[/ QUOTE ] Last i knew the NCRS allows more points for a CE pad than a blank pad.Although i could be wrong. There are alot of cars with CE motors that dont have validation of having them. They are still the best next to the original motor in my mind. If i had to pick a better option than a decked dated block,id pick a dated stamped block with the same horsepower designation as the car

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

Chuck,

What's considered validation? A dealer receipt for the
engine swap? Can't those be faked too?

Steve

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

Even a true, verified CE motor could have a casting date way later than the build date of the car. It could also have a casting number that would not be correct for the car. You could, in fact, receive no points due to late casting date, wrong casting number, no VIN derivative and no assembly derivative.

What if a person bought a new '68 Corvette built in October of '67? It may have been purchased in December of '67 and the original motor went south 11 months later, in November of '68. The dealer gets a CE warranty block and that block may have a '69 part number on it because the factory is now kicking out '69 equipment. The casting date may be September of 1968, 11 months after the car was built and probably more than one year later than the original motor was cast. CE verification or not, this motor will receive no points for the engine. In this case, I'd rather have an August 1968 replacement block with the correct casting number and sell the CE block to a guy with a 1969 Corvette.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

I'm with Chuck... a decked dated block is the last option IMHO... decked blocks are an unknown... if you can find a correct suffix block that would be the best... if it happens to have no VIN derivative it is a bonus... they are few and far between though... and for Gods sake if you do find one without the VIN please don't stamp one... that is https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last i knew the NCRS allows more points for a CE pad than a blank pad.

[/ QUOTE ]

In NCRS judging, a blank pad gets a 25-point deduct for no engine plant stamp, a 25-point deduct for no VIN derivative stamp, and a 38-point deduct if the pad surface has been decked; if it's a factory-broached blank pad, there's no pad surface deduction.

A "CE" block pad is judged exactly the same way (-25 for the incorrect engine plant stamp, -25 for the missing VIN stamp, and no surface deduction if the factory-broached pad is showing and is typical).

Most of the block points are allocated to the casting number and date, and less for the pad, and they're judged sequentially (unique only to block judging):

If the block casting number is incorrect, a 350-point deduct is taken and block judging stops right there.

If the casting number is correct, the casting date is judged; if the date is incorrect, a 175-point deduct is taken and block judging stops right there.

If the casting number and date are correct, the pad is judged; if the engine plant stamp is incorrect/not typical/missing, it's a 25-point deduct. Same for the VIN derivative stamp. If the pad surface isn't typical or has added marks, it's a 38-point deduct. There are no partial deductions for the three pad elements - each either gets full credit or a full deduction, and if a pad has paint on it, an 88-point deduction is taken for all three pad elements, as it can't be adequately judged.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

Thanks, John. Most likley, a CE block would be a later casting number and certainly a later casting date than correct for a car.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, John. Most likley, a CE block would be a later casting number and certainly a later casting date than correct for a car.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree!
My COPO has a CE block and I have the repair order from the dealer replacing the block under warranty. Block is a Dec 70 512 and was installed in the car in March of 71..Block is stamped CE1XXXXX

ALbert

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

Heres how i see the market in order of preference AND a value for the car scenario 1]original motor 2]original dated block w original build date but no vin 3] alt vin and dated for car build 4] CE motor 5}dated motor w decked pad 6]restamped restoration motor 7]wrong date and decked block With an emphasis on 1-4 being great options and 5-7 being least favorable. I may put CE at #2 spot,especially since the alt vin and no vin blocks may eventually get described as the original motor down the road and the CE will still remain a constant that being a acceptable replacement that could of well come in the car post assembly adn the car can never get misrepresented with it. [ QUOTE ]
In NCRS judging, a blank pad gets a 25-point deduct for no engine plant stamp, a 25-point deduct for no VIN derivative stamp, and a 38-point deduct if the pad surface has been decked; if it's a factory-broached blank pad, there's no pad surface deduction.

A "CE" block pad is judged exactly the same way (-25 for the incorrect engine plant stamp, -25 for the missing VIN stamp, and no surface deduction if the factory-broached pad is showing and is typical).

Most of the block points are allocated to the casting number and date, and less for the pad, and they're judged sequentially (unique only to block judging):



[/ QUOTE ] So my take on that is if you have a CE motor dated for the car you gain 38 points over a decked block thats dated for the car ,because the CE has broach marks..A never stamped block would be even better but harder to find for sure

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

So, basically with judging value directly associated to monetary value it would be in the best interest of the owner to pull a GM issued CE warranty block component in favor of a dated suffix correct block with another cars VIN. Kind of ironic when you consider the fact that GM fully recognized it would have a factored component failure rate and implemented a program to address it. Too bad we cant assume the same and address it in judging criteria https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

[/ QUOTE ] So my take on that is if you have a CE motor dated for the car you gain 38 points over a decked block thats dated for the car ,because the CE has broach marks..A never stamped block would be even better but harder to find for sure

[/ QUOTE ]

The block casting, (350 pts) would be judged first and then the date, (175 pts) and finally the pad with its three elements. Keep in mind that the stops are put in place at the first non comforming data. In the case of a legitimate CE that would be extremely prohibitive unless you used a CE from another vehicle https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

I think Alans orignal question was which of the 2[CE versus decked and dated]made a car worth more. And i believe the answer given those choices is CE. CEs could certainly be dated before the car date. The one thing i disagree on[ok theres more than one !!!] is that if i had a valid CE motor in a corvette id have to take a CE from someone elses car to get more points if there block was dated earlier than my car and the legit CE in my corvette was not. makes no sense.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

Exactly when did Chevy first start producing "CE" coded replacement engine assemblies?
I've seen replacements from the early '60s with "XX" suffixes and no sequential number.

Verne

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

The distinction is really pretty simple...judging compares the car to "as delivered" condition. Since the CE replacement motor would come after delivery, it is not desirable for judging purposes. Those looking to preserve the "history" of a car, would likely prefer a CE block if there was paperwork supporting the warranty work. Personally, since I prefer the "as delivered" category, I would pay more for a properly done "restoration" motor if my original was long gone. It's all a mater of personal preference. Having the correct motor from another car is still not the original to me, so it has no more value than a correctly dated resto motor.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

What would be the definition of a properly done restoration motor................

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

One that would get full points in NCRS-type judging - dated, numbered, broach marks etc.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

I agree with Zedder in that the judging criteria is "as delivered" in the current format. The only difference I see that is not addressed in judging between restoration engines and GM warranty replacements is that the CE was a GM program with a documented proceedure for installation at authorized GM service locations. Restoration engines are individual modifications. Paperwork supporting the warranty exchange should carry the same judging value as that of the "as delivered" paper documentation. Afterall, the window sticker and POP warranty booklet were a component of an "as delivered" vehicle. Ironic that we covet the POP as a documentation tool but dont acknowledge the details spelled out between its covers. Like it or not its part of the GM package.

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One that would get full points in NCRS-type judging - dated, numbered, broach marks etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zedder, I respectfully disagree with your answer to JoeG. Just because an engine can win the most points at an NCRS event does NOT mean it's a properly done "restoration" motor. A car that scores a PERFECT score at an NCRS national event is not necessarilly the most historically ACCURATE restoration of that car. It only means that the car was done to NCRS guidlines.

I guess my overall point is that any car deserves to be restored to it's former original condition, just for it's own sake, and to preserve a piece of history for other people to learn from long after we're all long gone. As time passes and we learn more, I hope more people realize that a "restoration" should be a depiction of a car just as it was originally built. If changes are made to a car during restoration that deviate from the way it was delivered new, just because someone wrote a guideline about how it "should" be done, then the purpose of the restoration was to win a $10. trophy (or claim the status from the award to gain more money) rather than to accurately preserve the history of the car.

The CAR is the MOST important thing. The most important thing is NOT winning an award or increasing the car's value. I guess I'm just living in a idealistic world......I can't help my views. No offense meant.
I would rather leave off a $10. item from a car I restored exactly as original and sacrifice the peddigre of a national award and the $10K+ more it would be worth if restored to someone's guideline for the sake of restoring it exactly as original.

I guess preserving history happens to be more important to me than changing something for the sake of a short term personal gain during our little speck in history.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gifVerne

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

No problem with having a differing opinion Verne...that's the beauty of the hobby - each of us chooses how to play the game https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif My comments were made with respect to the motor only - which is the topic of this thread. I don't think any judging body has re-written history in that regard. I do agree that many judging manuals and judges have made mistakes and I would only follow them if I wanted my car judged in that venue. I will never have a car judged as that is not where my interests lie today. I did a 6 year stint in the NCRS and had a blast and learned a lot - so no disrespect to anyone in that organization. So what I was saying is to me there is only one original engine for a car. ANY other engine is just part of a restoration in my view...so, just like I would use NOS quarter panels whenever available to replicate the originals, I have no problem with a correctly dated, broached and restamped motor or tranny etc. The price differential of 30 plus percent less for a non-orignal motor car that many go by is silly to me - but that's just my opinion! Yes, I believe there should be a differential, but the fact remains that cars that lost their motors etc. during "battle" are still great cars! What peeves me is the fact that so many look down their noses at these cars and have relegated them to second class status and I think it creates more ill-will than necessary. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what is fueling the trend towards less-correct restos and non-numbers fun cars. It's a shame really because this is just causing more "history" to be lost to the mini-tubbed pro-touring set. Again, just my opinions boys, so no need to throw flames https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: which is best- c.e. or date correct motor?
 

I believe that in the end, we're talking about a very few actual documented cars with CE engines. I think the potential is there for faking these engines and the paperwork, also. In reality, I see no chance of NCRS providing any special treatment for a CE motor. In theory, you could have a dealer that has a CE motor in stock that is correctly numbered and dated for the car. If a motor died the first week of ownership and the dealer had a CE motor in stock that was cast two months before, it could have the correct casting number and date. NCRS would judge the engine and the car could easily Top Flight.