Musclecar value question
 

So I'm watching the replays of the Barret-Jackson auction and I couldn't help but notice a distrubing slant to the values of certain cars. For example, why would a Hemi 'Cuda be worth more than a 1969 L88 Corvette? Both cars were very beautiful; the "Cuda was green with black vinyl roof and interior with a 4 speed. The 'Vette was a Riverside Gold coupe 4 speed with all of the usual L88 stuff. The 'Vette went to 260k or there about and the 'Cuda went for closer to 300k.
Both cars (maybe not these two specific cars) have racing in thier blood and are extremely rare; I think the '69 L88 is rarer (I could be wrong) but, for some reason once you put a Hemi into somthing the price skyrockets.
In my opinion the Corvette was more "state of the art" back then and I would think the L88 would be equal to, or more, valuable than any production Mopar.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the disproportionate values placed on these Mopars compared to other, sometimes rarer, musclecars?

Re: Musclecar value question
 

I couln't agree more..... and note by my signature that I'm not biased at all :-)

I'd like to see a Hemi Cuda be clocked at 220 mph down the Mulsane staight at the 24 Hours of LeMans like the L88 was in the early 70's!

Seriously, it was pretty apparent at Mecum last week that Hemi's were coming off the "bubble" with many being bid to lower numbers than at Mecum Rockford or B-J.

However, the deep pocketed baby boomer who buys a hemi car, probably has more "bragging rights" at the country club....all his buddy's have heard of hemi's, but you almost have to be a real hard core car guy to know much about the signifigance of an L88.

Just my $.02.

Re: Musclecar value question
 

I too believe that L88 Corvettes are undervalued when compared to Hemi Cudas ZL1 Camaros etc. Here is a car that was produced for three years with total production at 216 units and had racing sucess. I may be a little biased though https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Musclecar value question
 

Some guys were not born with a silver spoon and Only could afford a MUSCLE CAR with lots of cubes !!And boy did we have fun packing your friends in the car with a case of beer and driving around all night listening to Toys in the Attic,Led Zep,Doors, and Jimmy HX on the guitar full blast.
I didnt think Vette guys did that !!

Drinking and racing was fun back in the day and nobody got hurt !! Im still https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif but without the booze. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Musclecar value question
 

Damn..I got goosebumps Rich !!

Re: Musclecar value question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some guys were not born with a silver spoon and Only could afford a MUSCLE CAR with lots of cubes !!And boy did we have fun packing your friends in the car with a case of beer and driving around all night listening to Toys in the Attic,Led Zep,Doors, and Jimmy HX on the guitar full blast.
I didnt think Vette guys did that !!



[/ QUOTE ]

In 1976 I sold my 70' 440-6 Challenger (after trashing it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif) and bought a 1970 LS5 Corvette. My buddy and I went on several double dates in that car, it was just a little crowded, and there was a weight limit on the girls...

IMO I think the mid-year vettes have sucked a lot of the wind out of the C-3 prices over the last 10 years, even though 69 L88's and ZL1's were the baddest of the bad.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

If anyone looks at the Fall 06 issue of Muscle Car Review, in the cars of '69 section on page 21, theres a write up of a '69 ZL1 Vette that I've never seen before, a red ZL1/M40 AUTOMATIC roadster owned by a fellow named John Maher, who's also said to be the original owner and in possesion of the tank sticker. I've never seen this car before, being familiar only with the yellow car and the (debated) white car. It has a picture at the Pigeon Forge car show last year(its shown with polished Americans and a vintage race paint scheme). Does anyone have some knowledge of this car they can share?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

Tom,I remember in 1988 at Bloomington during the L-88 meet ther was talk of an orange ZL-1 with non matching motor. Never heard any more about it. Ron.....

http://photobucket.com/albums/e341/9187/

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I met John at Carlisle. Very nice guy!!
The car is a real ZL1, and yes -he is the original owner.
From what I remember his car is orange.
John Z. knows him very well, he is one of those vettehead guys. He should be able to tell you much more.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I've long since given up trying to make sense of values. I have very fond memories of driving a 68 Hemi Roadrunner jumping the local railraod tracks and going airborne (before I was a pilot) while listening to 'Songs For Beginners' by Graham Nash. I have fond memories of owning and enjoying my 69 Duntov L88 Corvette. When I was young, I couldn't afford the L88 but I could damn sure afford to jump railraod tracks in that Hemi Roadrunner.
Today, they would both be worth a lot of money to me. I think reliving our youth helps to determine values today. A lot of us could afford a high performance Mopar in the day but few of us could afford that Corvette. I think that is the equalizer.
Regards,
Mark

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

i believe the hemi values are as they are because of 2 individuals -- bill w and dave c -- singlehandedly cornering the market and driving prices up past $1m and more. e.g. 2006 b-j feature ragtop hemi sells for $2m, from dave c to bill w.

it's remarkable but not sustainable.

Re: Musclecar value question
 

The answer is simple - supply and demand.

I just never thought the Chevy guys would be complaining about values. Perhaps they aren't used to taking a back seat to a Mopar?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I know about the ZL-1 Corvette that John owns.I have a contract of sale to one of my clients..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Musclecar value question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I couln't agree more..... and note by my signature that I'm not biased at all :-)

I'd like to see a Hemi Cuda be clocked at 220 mph down the Mulsane staight at the 24 Hours of LeMans like the L88 was in the early 70's!

Seriously, it was pretty apparent at Mecum last week that Hemi's were coming off the "bubble" with many being bid to lower numbers than at Mecum Rockford or B-J.

However, the deep pocketed baby boomer who buys a hemi car, probably has more "bragging rights" at the country club....all his buddy's have heard of hemi's, but you almost have to be a real hard core car guy to know much about the signifigance of an L88.

Just my $.02.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of notes. 2 Hemi cars at Mecum doesn't define the market. Same as the low bid COPOs. And auction is an auction!

As far as performance goes. Did you see the F.A.S.T. on slicks shoot-out between the Stage 1, Hemi and L88 from early September. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Patrick

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

The orange ZL1 was at the Vettefest two years ago and the owner and car were are both amazing. I believe that it is a true ZL1 Corvette. I also agree that the L88's are certainly more collectable than most Hemi cars. Now Paul and Steve, can I have a ride your L88's?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
i believe the hemi values are as they are because of 2 individuals -- bill w and dave c -- singlehandedly cornering the market and driving prices up past $1m and more. e.g. 2006 b-j feature ragtop hemi sells for $2m, from dave c to bill w.

it's remarkable but not sustainable.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on Earth do you think Dave C had any part of conering the market ? He had 2 Cudas and a Challenger and he bought them before the market went crazy. Don't you think MiltR selling his for 1 mil was a milestone in musclecar history and had a bigger effect than Dave selling his car a couple years later at Barrett-Jackson ?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
.........Don't you think MiltR selling his for 1 mil was a milestone in musclecar history and had a bigger effect than Dave selling his car a couple years later at Barrett-Jackson ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt a milestone.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
...Don't you think MiltR selling his for 1 mil was a milestone in musclecar history and had a bigger effect than Dave selling his car a couple years later at Barrett-Jackson ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta get up pretty early to put one past Lillard. You're right, Charley, I forgot the dentist car that started it all. Where is that car now?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I believe that was the blue one (there are two) and that one ended up in Scottsdale via OK. Could be wrong . . .

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

The ZL1 roadster is apparently orange, it looked red in the picture, but anyone who tries to photograph red/orange cars knows how difficult it is to get a true representation.

rich p - your message is a little cryptic, do you mean your client has a contract for first rights to buy if the seller gets the itch, or is your client in the process of purchasing? Not to pry, but you put that out there..

I would have to agree with the supply and demand. While those two guys may be among the more visible, the market was only "cornered" from the standpoint that guys like Kevin S were sitting on their collections, and the low key longtime owners weren't inclined to sell until prices got crazy. Bottom line is more enthusiastic millionaires were in the market than there were cars. Corvettes, for reasons I don't entirely understand, were really late to the party in this last "boom". Musclecars preceded the rise in value of the significant Porsches and Ferraris this time, and one could make the argument that Corvettes (and to a certain extent, Shelby Cobras and '65-67 GT350's/GT500's) really follow that market more. In my experience, many Corvette and Shelby guys are sports car guys trying to convince themselves that Vettes are not really Chevys and GT350's aren't really Fords.

And no, I doubt those guys ever jumped railroad tracks in Roadrunners while blasting "Paranoid" on the 8 track and didn't lose their virginity in the back of a Chevelle to the romanitic tones of "Stairway to Heaven" after seducing their companions with adequate amounts of Pabst Blue Ribbon (or equivalent regional brew).

To be fair, they shot sparks after bottoming out their Austin Healeys on the train tracks, and lost their virginity on a blanket in a park after the Crosby, Stills and Nash concert once the bottle of Boone's Farm was emptied.

But still they drove fast and got laid just the same, so there really is more that brings us together than separates us:)

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I have a contract of sale: Being inspected as we speak !

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a contract of sale: Being inspected as we speak !

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
And no, I doubt those guys ever jumped railroad tracks in Roadrunners while blasting "Paranoid" on the 8 track and didn't lose their virginity in the back of a Chevelle to the romanitic tones of "Stairway to Heaven" after seducing their companions with adequate amounts of Pabst Blue Ribbon (or equivalent regional brew).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was a 1970 Plymouth Superbird, by the beach in Milford, CT with the 8-track playing Franki Valli's "Oh, What A Night." Those damn track changes sure got distracting. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I think the point of my original post may have gotten lost in some of the responses. While I realize the Corvette was a very expensive car and not many guys got laid in them that was then and this is now. What I was trying to understand was why, in this day of skyrocketing collector car prices, have the Corvettes, L88's, LS6's and other high horsepower models seem to be overlooked. Many of these cars are rarer than the Mopars so for me that knocks out the supply and demand theory. These Corvettes also will outperform many of the Mopars as well. So to my original post; why do you think it is that the Corvette brings less money in the collector car market than some of the musclecars?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

Being a Corvette fan and owning a bunch over the years, I think that most folks can't relate to the Corvette from when they grew up.
The "everyday" cars such as Mustang, Camaros, Cudas, Chevelle, all were in the high school parking lots across the country. We sure didn't have Corvettes in our parking lot at school, but all the other cars were there. You take the cars the guys saw while growing up and then dress them out with the ultimate engine and you have prices going through the roof. My red '66 Shelby got more attention than any Corvette because people thought of it as a Mustang, and everyone could relate to a Mustang. Same with any Chevelle or Camaro I've owned.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

Remember that rare does not necessarily equal valuable. The hemi cars are in such demand today because they were what the high school kids pined for back in the day. A Corvette would have been a pure fantasy for an average kid back then but the hemi was an $800 option on just about any B-Body Mopar in the 60's and early 70's and at least was a foreseeable dream for a kid. You could have bought one for under $4000 back then. (that's why you see a lot of the cars with manual steering and manual drum brakes...because the other options cost so much back then.) You also could have loaded them up with so many option that they surpassed a Corvette's sticker too.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

So the difference in prices would be directly connected to the fact that people who grew up that era, and have made it big financially, are buying what they wanted but, could not afford back in the day?
Seems like a plausible explanation; they wouldn't be my first choice if I had that kind of money but, they would certainly be on my list.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

Just watch Dased & Confused and that pretty much sums it up for most of us!! I didnt see any Vettes in the movie. Just some Killer Muscle cars and a Killer soundtrack...

Muscle Cars,Girls & Beer
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just watch Dased & Confused and that pretty much sums it up for most of us!! I didnt see any Vettes in the movie. Just some Killer Muscle cars and a Killer soundtrack...

Muscle Cars,Girls & Beer
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lead in song for the movie: <font color="blue"> SWEET EMOTION! </font> Now, if that don't get you pumped!!!!!!!!!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I still am not seeing some opinion that agrees with mine, so I'll go into detail a bit more. Of course, it's an opinion and nothing more, and I could be full of it.

Chevys have always demanded top dollar in the hobby. Even when 1000s have been built (like the LS6 Chevelle), they have always been on the higher side of the market. Look at 10 years ago . . . weren't LS6 cars about equal to Hemi cars? But they made a lot less of Hemi cars. They've always been strong and in demand, but the LS6's status of being a Chevy always kept its value elevated. Of course, it having the highest rated hp ever helped a bit, right?

But, today, look at the marginal difference in price of a Hemicuda and an LS6 from 10 years ago. The Mopar has changed a lot more than the Chevy. Even the hallowed LS6 ragtop, once purported to be among the rarest musclecars, has lost its luster. Most high-dollar collectors know it's not as rare as once was thought, and documentation is a lot harder to come by than Mopars, which have the data plates under the hood with all the options. Of course, these have been forged, which elevates the value of documented Hemis because collectors are willing to shell out the dinero for examples whose pedigree is beyond reproach.

So, back to one of the premium comments . . . the complaint about "on the disproportionate values placed on these Mopars compared to other, sometimes rarer, musclecars" is sour grapes. The Buick guys think the GS Stage 1 ragtop should be close to the price of the creme de la creme of the hobby. The RAIV Judge ragtop guys don't understand how their car - just about the rarest out there - is worth less than a Chevy. And Ford guys have it tough except for some Mustangs. At least the Marti Reports have helped buffer Fords' values, but in many cases they lag other, equally fast and rare Brand X vehicles.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

442W30; it was I would made the comment, not a complaint, about the disproportionate values placed on these Mopars compared to other, sometimes rarer, musclecars and I can assure you it is not a case of "sour grapes" since I don't own any of these super valuable cars.
I simply don't understand why the Mopars, particularly the Hemis, are valued so highly when they aren't the rarest, the fastest or the best looking of the musclecars. In my original post I used the L88 Corvette as a comparison; here's a car that's rarer than most of the super valuable cars, performs as well or better than most, has a real racing history behind it and in my opinion is one of the better looking cars of their time. Yet, with all of this going for it, the prices still lag behind many of the Hemi cars.
Some have tried to explain the huge differences in values due to supply and demand while others seem to think it is because the Mopars,as well as other musclecars, represent the cars that most could afford back in the day so they relate better to them. The Corvette demanded a premium and was not something most young men, or women, could afford so these Mopars and other branded musclecars are more familiar and therefore more in demand.
These explanations I can see as making sense but, I can assure you there isn't a case of sour grapes here. I love all musclecars and I can safely say that each manufacturer built at least one car that I would truly love to have in my garage so I have no strong ties to any one brand or model.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

A big block Chevy looks like...well, any other big block Chevy. There is no major visual difference between a 396 and an L88. But a hemi looks like no other engine, except for what they run in Top Fuel. Maybe it boils down to the fact that the hemi is just a name everyone knows (even though they may have no idea what it means other than FAST)...and its a lot sexier to look at. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...chargeng12.jpg

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

-------Only my opinion but I think rare Corvettes are lagging a bit at the moment because they were popular collector cars a long time before the johnny-come-latelys (Hemis, COPOs, etc.). Collectors have just in the last several years come around to consider these other rare cars as truly collectable. Corvettes have just been in the public eye a bit too long and are therefore a bit old hat. They will have thier day in the sun again. They always have. Just throwing this out to see weather you guys give this brainstorm of mine any credence........Bill S

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
A big block Chevy looks like...well, any other big block Chevy. There is no major visual difference between a 396 and an L88. But a hemi looks like no other engine, except for what they run in Top Fuel. Maybe it boils down to the fact that the hemi is just a name everyone knows (even though they may have no idea what it means other than FAST)...and its a lot sexier to look at. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...chargeng12.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

But, you don't quite get it. You see in most social settings a disproportionate head size is a detractor. You know....

"Look at the size of that boy's melon. It's like an orange on a toothpick.
No kidding. His head's like Sputnik. Spherical, but pointy in parts.
Oooh, that was a bit offsides. Now he'll cry himself to sleep on his <u>huge</u> pillow".

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

P.S. Do you actually like haggis?

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

No other engine but the Hemi gives me that WHAM! in your face hit when I see one in person. The mile wide heads and valve covers, huge ports, directly opposed valves, cross bolted mains, and nothing sounds like it idling like a coffee can full of rocks. A Hemi Cuda or Challenger has always been my favorite musclecar. I have driven several but never been able to afford one. The race winning heritage and mystique have kept the prices up.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Do you actually like haggis?

[/ QUOTE ]


Sean Connery: Haggis?
Christopher Lambert: Yes, sheep's stomach filled with meat and barley
Sean Connery: How revolting.
(Stolen from the original Highlnder movie)

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

We celebrate a Robbie Burns nite every year and the "haggis" is the center of attention. The bagpiper plays and it is brought in for all to see. The party is great fun with poems, songs and stories...there is always plenty of haggis left over!

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

Dazed and Confused was filmed entirely here in Austin. In the credits, they thank "Pat Sullivan" for the use of his cars, most of the cars in that movie were his. He's the fellow that owns Bill's old silver LS6 Corvette and a blue '65 fuelie Corvette that Charley used to own.
The stars in the movie just loved the old cars they had around for the shooting. The movie company really hurt his GTO and didn't want to provide any funds for the damages. The GTO that got it's door flung out in the parking lot scene was a stand-in, but the one in the shots with everyone sitting and leaning on it was his. They damaged the hood pretty bad. In the end, he got a mention in the credits for providing six cars for filming and some monetary reimbursement for damages.
About the only car that he still has that was in the movie is the big blue Grand Prix that was in the drive-in restaurant sene.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that mopar parts are hard to come by. Also look at the amount of corvettes that are out there. In the BJ auctions 30% are corvettes, there seems to be more out there then were ever made, yes i know they're not all the rare ones, but if a guy wants one for scooting around town, they're everywhere.

Re: Musclecar value question/ZL1 Vette
 

I will say I have driven a lot of Musclecars but I got to drive a ZL1 at the Reunion and have to say that it is one Sick Camaro.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif