uncommon copo found
 

scheduled for complete restoration in november of 2006
TR 716 71 71 PNT
06A X11

nicely optioned, delivered to Malcom Konners, Paramus N.J. 6/27/69, resting comfortably in iowa till november.
special thank's to Jude and Dan for the lead. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Actually, Dan Palchanes deserves all the credit for finding this one. Glad you're happy with it & I know it'll look awesome when it's done https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Got a current picture?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

IS that a dealer installed Vinyl roof?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Is this Dan's old old old old car? Nice combination.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Yes, it's Dan's old copo. When he found it the only thing that led us to believe that it was a possible copo was that the bdy # was just 4 digets away from LVcamaro's copo, also from Malcolm Konners. So, it was a gutsy purchase at the time. An NICB report later proved that it did come from there. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
It's my understanding that MK added lots of dealer mods. If I remeber correctly, this car has a deluxe interior & got a vinyl top & spoiler.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

So the body # being close to a known COPO is it or did other documentation from MK show up ?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I also think that the bdy # was only 2 digits away from the '69 copo Chevelle featured Sept 2004. I'm unsure about any other MK doc's.
I emailed the #'s to Ed C before the NICB confirmation & his response was 'I believe that's it's one of the MK COPO's' but, to my knowledge, he never actually certified it.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

How could a Camaro be 2 body numbers off from a Chevelle?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I'm confused.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Charley, 6161x11´s bio says: "collecting and restoring documented Camaros". Beside knowing the delivery-date, shown in the first post, I also believe he knows the invoice-date. So the invoice SHOULD be with the car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

According to Ed C. my car COULD be a Malcolm Konner car, but the NICB search turned up empty handed. My car has the body# before LV´s Camaro.
The car in this thread, LV´s Camaro, and other known MK-cars, are all well optioned. Mine isn´t.
Does anyone out there know if Malcolm Konner ordered any "plain Jane" cars for dragracing ?

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Sorry. This transaction happened a while back & I rembered this body # being referenced against 2 other cars, LVcamaro's being one of them. Perhaps the other car was yours COPO_ Anders. Did you ever dicuss your copo with Dan P?
It makes sense to have gotten a 'plain jane' from MK or any other Supercar dealer. Not everyone wanted options or were willing to pay extra for them. JMO

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Yes Dan and I PM´d each other a while back. He said that Malcolm Konner cars are normally well optioned, and that one of the bodynumbers between LV´s and this one (not mine) was also a car from MK.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

i think if i were a dealer "in the know", like MK, i would probably order a spread of maybe 5 copo cars, say 353000, 353001, 353002, 353003, 353004 and 353005. i would equip each car a little differently, by so doing i would cover my bases for appeal to different individuals. my bias as a dealer may show up in some of the cars, such as a highly optioned copo rs, although in the end i would want to make a return on my investment. i believe that most dealers at the time enjoyed their business and had loyalty toward their car marque. jmo https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

The dealers didn't specify the desired body numbers when ordering cars, so the dealer would not know (or care) whether they ordered/received sequential body numbered cars. I'm sure it could happen, but I've seen a bunch of cars ordered by the same dealer and have a couple thousand body numbers between them. The best way to document this car is to chase down the prior owners, because the blocks of copo camaro numbers are not as defined as they are for the copo novas - making it difficult to conclude when a body is/is not a copo.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Would Jim Mattison be able to shed more light on this subject?
He is bringing his L-88 Corvette to race at SCR9 in a few weeks.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

owner history, nicb report, original documentation and certification all conbine to create great provenance for a copo car.

i understand that chevrolet assigned the body numbers when the cars were accepted into the system for build. many copo camaros ordered at the same time by the same dealer had sequential body numbers. i am sure there may be exceptions to the rule, i suppose that in the end you have to be comfortable with the cars history and documentation. as a side note i agree that dealers did not select the body numbers for their ordered cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Agreed, you have to be comfortable with the history and doc's - and of course everyone has a different comfort level with this stuff.

I'm trying to think of other clues to check. The X11 on the TT is no help compared to an X44 D80 notation, is the speedo still there - possibly a double copo with the 140MPH? The big front bar? Special hole in f/wall for the C/I hood?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Marlin, have you seen a bunch of 1969 COPO Camaros that were all ordered at the same time by the same dealer that had a couple of thousand bodynumbers between them ?
If I understand you right, if a dealer ordered lets say five COPO´s, the bodynumbers on those five cars would probably NOT be sequential. Even if they were ordered at the same time, right ?

I just want to clarify. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Both scenarios are possible. Sometimes a group of cars were sequential, other times they were not. I think that if a car is line with the others, it's a good indicator, but no 100% conclusive. It's a shame that NJ is so poor with title searches, as that is one avenue to find more info on the car.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

i guess for some the research on a particular car is fun.
i personally subscribe to the theory that the body numbers were sequential, if the order was accepted for production
at one time from one specific dealer, it makes sense to me that the body numbers would serve as a type of purchase order number. jmo https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I think if the body # is right in the middle of other known COPO's from the same dealer, NICB says it came from the same dealer, and all the typcial physical clues for a COPO car are intact, then you can probably be 99.9% it is a real COPO. The difficulty being if you spend $80K on a resto and then need to sell it for some reason, it might be more challenging getting the next buyer comfortable.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Do you have an NICB report for this car?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Marlin, what is your experience with the 1969 Yenko Camaros ?
Do you know when a specific car was ordered, so that you can see today that cars ordered at the same time don´t have sequential bodynumbers ?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I don´t have any proof of it, but I have been told that bodynumber 353001,353003 and 353005 are known Malcolm Konner cars.
Is the owner of 353003 out there, and can confirm that your car came from MK ?
Or are the owners of 353002 and/or 353004 out there, and know that your cars did not come from MK ?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Hi Anders,

The short answer is 'no', I don't have any info that shows that cars ordered together have/don't have sequential body numbers. The reason is because we don't know when a specific dealer placed their orders, even though we might know that a specific dealer received 10 cars for example - we don't know the production sequence that GM decided to produce them under. The more dealers involved with ordering cars under a particular copo, the more variability - and the higher the possbility of non-sequential bodies going to a given dealer.

I'm no expert on the COPO Camaro bodies, but have studied them in some detail to determine similarities to the Nova body numbers.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I was thinking about this earlier and thought that if plain/standard non special order cars were produced very soon after being ordered then we should be able to tell by the body numbers approximately when the car was ordered. It seems that if you went backwards on the body numbers and found other "plain" cars with close body numbers to the COPO "groups" then we could guesstimate the order time with in a week or two.
Don't know how this might help but I was thinking on it as well.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

The body numbers are not always linear in relation to build week.

I like to use the copo novas as an example: The first 15 deuces have the earliest body numbers, and have build dates of 06A. The next 15 deuces have sequentially later body numbers, but have an earlier build date of 05D! So, the earlier build week does not necessarily indicate a lower body number - strange, but....

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I understand that the special cars do not follow any set sequencing. What I thought was that the "normal" ordered cars may have. So after the order was accepted by fisher (body number assigned) they would have been built relatively quickly. So we could determine more or less when the COPO orders were accepted by Fisher by comparing the COPO body numbers to regular cars body numbers.
I will post this topic on CRG to see what JohnZ has to say about it.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Don't know if it's been asked yet but is their a BE rear end in it. What suffix is on the front pad? JQ

Re: uncommon copo found
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that the special cars do not follow any set sequencing. What I thought was that the "normal" ordered cars may have. So after the order was accepted by fisher (body number assigned) they would have been built relatively quickly. So we could determine more or less when the COPO orders were accepted by Fisher by comparing the COPO body numbers to regular cars body numbers.
I will post this topic on CRG to see what JohnZ has to say about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The copo cars were not built 'quicker' or 'special' from the research that I've done. Don ordered the first batch of copo novas in early Dec. of '69, and they were not built until the last week of May '70. I think there was a strike in there somewhere, but even so, they didn't get preferential treatment. Let us know what JohnZ's reply is, it is interesting to learn about the scheduling details within the GM plants.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I thought it was a known fact that the 69 COPO 427 cars were done in batches due to limited availability of some of the components(BE rear mainly). Kurt S should have more info on that and Jim M can probably add to it. Therefore, COPO 427 cars tend to be grouped together by the NOR sequence number. I don't know if particular dealer orders were kept in order vs other dealer COPO orders though.

Re: uncommon copo found
 

It is my feeling that a certain dealer could have his batch of COPO Camaros, ordered at the same time, grouped together by the NOR bodynumber.

Shortage in components like BE-rearends would, more or less, group different dealers COPO Camaro-VIN´s together.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Marlin,
I am sorry that I wasn't specific... I was not referring to Nova's at all, I have no idea how they were sequenced built etc.
I was referring to the past comments about Camaro's and how body numbers were assigned and how the bodies were not released to be produced until the parts were available, which is why the body numbers are much lower that the "normal" cars built during the same week as the COPO's.
I have the cowl tag numbers from a Z28 03D car and it has a body number that is 30,000 units higher that the COPO built the same week.
What that tells me is that the order for the COPO was accepted about 2-1/2 months before hand.
What do you guys think?

Re: uncommon copo found
 

I was using the Novas as an example to show the time span between ordering a batch of copo cars and GM actually building them!

As I said previously, referencing the body number to a build week is not a reliable comparison. In one of the prior examples, a later build week of cars received earlier body numbers, and vice-versa!

Re: uncommon copo found
 

[ QUOTE ]
The body numbers are not always linear in relation to build week.

I like to use the copo novas as an example: The first 15 deuces have the earliest body numbers, and have build dates of 06A. The next 15 deuces have sequentially later body numbers, but have an earlier build date of 05D! So, the earlier build week does not necessarily indicate a lower body number - strange, but....

[/ QUOTE ]
Very strange. But I have witnessed this personally. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
Joe

Re: uncommon copo found
 

That billedle is a bit strange eh? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

[ QUOTE ]
The body numbers are not always linear in relation to build week.

I like to use the copo novas as an example: The first 15 deuces have the earliest body numbers, and have build dates of 06A. The next 15 deuces have sequentially later body numbers, but have an earlier build date of 05D! So, the earlier build week does not necessarily indicate a lower body number - strange, but....

[/ QUOTE ]
The COPO Chevelles do wacky stuff like this also...just about the time you think you see a pattern, you get some cars thrown in there that go against the rule...you'll see some 289xxx cars done in 07D, but then some 283xxx cars in 07E...with the VINs naturally way off as well...https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: uncommon copo found
 

Like Rob points out, there are inconsistencies between body numbers and build weeks & between body numbers and dealer orders.

I think it's equally fair to say that there are also consistencies in the numbers as well. I personally believe that when you see 3 out of 5 sequential body numbers going to one dealer, that the probability is pretty good that the other two went there as well - and, if those 3 cars were copo's, there's a good probability that the other two may have been as well.

The point being, the body number, build date, and dealer order info is good to have - just not conclusive, and justifies further research.