70 COPO
 

I was browsing old posts and it got me thinking about a car I've had on the back burner for a while, still collecting parts to restore it. Everytime I decide to sell it I end up talking myself out of it. It is a 70 Z28 with the COPO spoiler. I have no POP, window sticker, or build sheet. I have never looked for the build sheet, so where shoud I start? I do have the original title and license plate from 1970. I met with the original owner several years back. His health was failing so I never pushed the issue of original documents. He did verify the 40k on the clock were correct. I have no doubts of the cars pedigree because everything is there from the LT1 to the 12 bolt, all matching numbers. So, without the build sheet or some other documentation, is this car any more "special" than any other Z28? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Norwood 70 Camaros (those with N as part of the VIN) did not come with build sheets. Without a build sheet or window sticker, could not ANY post May, 1970 Norwood Z be converted into a "COPO" Z-28.......I ask you???????

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...70Z/Borris.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...BorrisPhil.jpg

Re: 70 COPO
 

Chuck,

I am glad I sent you the M/I Article, as I cannot get it to post up properly. As for conversions, It can be done and I have little doubt was done to more than a few 70's if people wanted to update the car's look some time later in life.

The conversion cars are pretty easy to detect by part number and fitment of the parts. The later spoilers fit quite a bit better whereas the original Piggins rush production COPO packages did not. Production was limited starting in mid may. So I guess if someone wants to go to the trouble to research and then locate the correct COPO spoiler parts, locate a Z28 with the correct build time frame, then proceed to ruin the original rear quarters by drilling holes in them for the end caps-then I guess you could clone one. Not much different than any other clone or fake at that point, as the real ones with documentation or owner history will be the "real deal" to the people who have them and for prospective buyers.

Here is a photo of my car taken by the original owner in 1971.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...PO/Cnv0655.jpg



Ohio plate SP 395 is special. SP=State Patrol 395 Trooper's Badge number. Car was purchased new at Dailey's in Erie PA.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Apparently this guy from the NastyZ28 site found a bunch of build sheets for 1970 and 1972 Norwood Camaro's. He has them listed by VIN.

http://www.nastyz28.com/buildsh.html

http://home.fuse.net/jbprather/70bsheet.htm

Maybe someone is lucky enough to find thier car on the list. I was not.

Re: 70 COPO
 

nrjulin,

Is the Daytona Yellow car coming to SCR-9??

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was browsing old posts and it got me thinking about a car I've had on the back burner for a while, still collecting parts to restore it. Everytime I decide to sell it I end up talking myself out of it. It is a 70 Z28 with the COPO spoiler. I have no POP, window sticker, or build sheet. I have never looked for the build sheet, so where shoud I start? I do have the original title and license plate from 1970. I met with the original owner several years back. His health was failing so I never pushed the issue of original documents. He did verify the 40k on the clock were correct. I have no doubts of the cars pedigree because everything is there from the LT1 to the 12 bolt, all matching numbers. So, without the build sheet or some other documentation, is this car any more "special" than any other Z28? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so. The first thing you have to do is confirm the car is real. The best way to do this is to do the research and confirm the ownership history of the car.

The significance of the 70 COPO 9697 cars were historically diminished by the use of this equipment in 71 as RPO D-80 with the RPO continuing to sell strong right through '81 where the street use of these parts was pretty much just for looks, unless you planned to run from the law and most road tests of the day let you know that.

From a racing prospective however this was an example of racing technology that did work and worked well.

With the demise of Chevrolet's Factory T/A racing effort in '71, the small team T/A racers continued to race with the big spoilers because they worked well. Later with the Camaro's use in the mid 70's in the IROC series (on TV) Chevrolet again got very serious about the use of the spoiler technology for racing. As speeds increased way beyond the old T/A speeds IROC drivers (then drafting at over 180mph) soon found that even the size of the old COPO spoiler from 70 had limitations- and then Chevrolet and IROC approved a modification in 1979 to add an additional larger center section to keep the rear of these racers planted. From a chevrolet perspective with sales of Camaros very strong through the 70's the contribution of the later IROC cars cannot be ignored as just like the old T/A days the Camaro's exposure in racing transulated into sales, as in '79 alone over 54,000 Z28's were sold.


The '70 COPO 9697 cars managed to get limited numbers of this start up racing technology to the street and in doing so started over a decade of racing achievement for Chevrolet, so I would have to say if you have a real '70 COPO car it is very special.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Phil in your opinion and in todays world what % does the COPO option tack on to the price of a fully restored Z?

Re: 70 COPO
 

And how many 70 Copo's have been found to date? vs, how many do we think were produced (500 or so?)?

Rich

Re: 70 COPO
 

I have one that is being restored. My car is an 06B build. It still has the original quarters and deck lid with the factory drilled holes. The quarter panel holes were done very crudely. Matter of fact the deck lid holes look pretty bad as well.
The quarters are being replaced but I am documenting everything.

Rick H.

Re: 70 COPO
 

Please help me here. I've always had trouble understanding the signifigance of the COPO 9697 on 1970 Camaros. Isn't it the same spoiler that was used on all 1970 Pontiac Trans Ams and Formula Firebirds? If this is so, then Pontiac should get the credit for developing the superior spoiler and Chevrolet just robbed it from their parts bin. My own 1970 Z/28 by the way is a smaller spoiler (holes filled in)car built in the third week of May in Norwood.

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phil in your opinion and in todays world what % does the COPO option tack on to the price of a fully restored Z?

[/ QUOTE ]

First you have to want one and to many the '70 just does not look like a '70 without the standard short RPO Z28 spoiler.

But if you do want a real COPO 9697 and if the car has good history, documentation options and colors perhaps 50% bump in value.

I am going on what I was offered for mine compared to a simular optioned ( good resto-same color combo and a 4 speed) Standard Z-28' sale that was completed almost two years ago.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
And how many 70 Copo's have been found to date? vs, how many do we think were produced (500 or so?)?

Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

I think perhaps 250-500 someplace in there. Piggins told me in 1985 that they needed 1000 for SCCA, but had "cheated the hell out of them" with the big problem being fit problems on the line pertaining to vendor AO Smith.

Perhaps the better question is how many of the original cars have actually survived two seperate time periods the late 80's and today where the majority of restorations completed on a 70 Z-28 require the addition of a short spoiler reguardless of what the car came with stock.

As late as a couple of years ago information on the 9796 option was limited to hard core Camaro people only. Heck in the mid 90's I was getting hammered at Super Chevy by the judges for the "wrong spoilers" "not availible till '71". It has been an up hill climb to correct the record and inform folks on these cars. Things really broke wide open two years ago when I re-discovered the Mechanix Illustrated article actually showing a picture of one of these rare cars being road tested.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have one that is being restored. My car is an 06B build. It still has the original quarters and deck lid with the factory drilled holes. The quarter panel holes were done very crudely. Matter of fact the deck lid holes look pretty bad as well.
The quarters are being replaced but I am documenting everything.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]


Rick,

Sounds right. The struggle to get the end caps to fit and line up required oversizing the holes.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please help me here. I've always had trouble understanding the signifigance of the COPO 9697 on 1970 Camaros. Isn't it the same spoiler that was used on all 1970 Pontiac Trans Ams and Formula Firebirds? If this is so, then Pontiac should get the credit for developing the superior spoiler and Chevrolet just robbed it from their parts bin. My own 1970 Z/28 by the way is a smaller spoiler (holes filled in)car built in the third week of May in Norwood.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right! Pontiac General Manager Jim McDonald agreed to let Chevy (Jim Delorean) use the center section developed for the Firebird Trans-AM. This was a favor by McDonald, and many at Pontiac were not happy at all about this deal. Then Pontiac vendor AO Smith then started manufacturing the Camaro end caps in "rush mode" on Temporary tooling and the production problems experienced with end cap fit significantly delayed the overall project and greatly reduced the total production.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Phil,
You should see a few of the holes in the quarters. You can stick your thumb through 'em. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Rick H.

Re: 70 COPO
 

This is an interesting subject as I just finished looking at the Camaro Registry and there are cars built before mine (05C build) with the tall COPO spoiler. I had always thought that Chevrolet had stopped production on the short spoilers and the remaining late '70 Z-28's got the tall spoilers and COPO designation. Apparently there was a mixture of the two spoilers as the cars came down the assembly line. Regular Z's got short spoilers and COPO Z's got the tall one. Interesting. I picked up my car recently advertised as a used and abused bracket racer in Oklahoma. It turned out to be a Shadow Grey, 4-speed radio delete Z-28 that has supposedly been a race car since new. Lots of neat features: magnesium Ramchargers dana 60, vintage four wheel race disc brakes, old fiberglass front clip and lots of swiss cheesing. An exciting find with a lost history that I'm trying to dig up.

Re: 70 COPO
 

Hey Mark...sounds cool! Shoot some pics of it. BTW, I still see the AA/FX car around here every once in a while https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

I believe that all 1970 Z/28's came standard with the one piece spoiler and after late April, early May of 1970 the three piece COPO spoiler became available but only as a special dealer order, not standard equipment. Phil??

Rick H.

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
50% bump in value

[/ QUOTE ]

So like 20K or so for the spoiler option. Wow.

Re: 70 COPO
 

FYI, My 07E Norwood Shadow Gray R/S Z has short spoiler....as shown in this 1978 picture

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...0pics/Rear.jpg

Re: 70 COPO
 

Rick,

Yes the dealers that knew about it could order it. How that all came together was through the zone reps as they were trying to spread them out to show the SCCA they were in production. Dealers within 300 miles of an SCCA race event were a priority for delivery.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

PS. Chuck Nice Z. Do you still have it?

Re: 70 COPO
 

I've owned a '70 RS Z-28 for 26 years, so I follow the market fairly closely. I just can't believe for two absolutely identical '70 Z-28's that the market value is 50% more for the tall spoiler car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif IMO, perhaps 5%-10% at the very best.

Re: 70 COPO
 

Just my opinion based on the fact that mine is real and I was offered crazy money for it. But then again there is plenty of crazy money out there these days. The real ones with paper and history are so rare it is hard to keep an eye on what the market is.

If you find a real one (for regular Z money) please be sure to let us all know so one of us can get it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/drool.gif

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

I just took a look at mine and it is an 06B build date and has original body panels and paint. Nothing appears to have been touched.

Re: 70 COPO
 

Phil, I think you were offerred "crazy money" because your car is exceptionally restored and certainly one of the best in the country, plus it has a great history. Looking forward to seeing it again at SCR9. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just took a look at mine and it is an 06B build date and has original body panels and paint. Nothing appears to have been touched.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please post up some photos!!!

COPO and others... Looking forward to seeing all of you at SCR-9.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Someone here just bought a 70 Copo Z for I believe mid forty's, and many thought that a "good" deal. A regular 70 Z is selling for what, mid twenty's? I think Phil's math is probably pretty close. Of course, there are not many changing hands right now, so as many here say, it's worth what someone is willing to spend.

I will say that I have turned down 40k for mine.

You could make the same argument about the 69 COPO's vs. Yenko's. I do not think there is a whole lot of (if any) performance differances, yet the Yenko's demand a much higher price than the Copo's. You are buying the history/name (IMHO). In fact, without the Yenko history, you could make the argument that the regular Copo was in fact superior as it was produced and sold by GM, and the Yenko's are a dealer car, therefore sort of a "day 2" concept.

Same with the 70 Copo Z's. And they are alot harder to authenticate, so when one is air tight, I would think that is worth a premium.

What HP did the 350 duece have? Not being smart, just wondering cause the last time this conversation came up someone mentioned that the 70 Copo Z's were not in the supercar class as they were small blocks and I did not think of the Deuce's then! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Of course, now that I have one I am a bit biased https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif


Rich

Re: 70 COPO
 

Rich,

I have to agree. Mine was wanted because it was a COPO.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
What HP did the 350 duece have? Not being smart, just wondering cause the last time this conversation came up someone mentioned that the 70 Copo Z's were not in the supercar class as they were small blocks and I did not think of the Deuce's then! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Of course, now that I have one I am a bit biased https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif


Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

The Yenko Deuce Novas have the Z28's LT1 - including the same application codes for 4sp & a/t's. The Deuce is a SuperCar bec/ the COPO #9010 & #9737 were drivetrain performance items, whereas the '70 COPO Z's were a spoiler change. If I recall the debate, it was regarding whether the spoiler change was considered a performance enhancement vs. an SCCA homogulation requirement.

Either way, both are cool cars - but then, I might be a bit biased too https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Marlin,

I knew you would chime in!! Clairification-As I recall the Deuce was created to beat the insurance companies as they attempted to rate hike the supercar out of existance-that is why there was no Big Block Yenkos built in 1970. Right?

They were and are both very cool cars, both getting the LT-1 from the "Corvette" option list.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

I'm sure Don had several reasons in mind for the Deuce copo's, one of which we feel was also SCCA homogulation - hence the similarities to the BOSS 302's. There were plans for Yenko big block products in '70, but alas, there were plenty of '69's on the lots!

Don't confuse the motives of Yenko with GM - I don't think GM created the copo to beat the insurance companies https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif GM approved the Deuce copos bec/ Don was buying 'em.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

There might just be a showdown on SCR9 betw/ a Deuce and a '70 Z https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Marlin,

Sorry do not want to go too far off topic - but just one more question for you. I know there were Canadian Nova COPO LT-1 cars sold also. Were there any non Yenko Converted LT-1 Nova's sold stateside?

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

There were indeed two that went to Canada, with one surviving. We do not know of any that were sold in the US outside of Yenko's orders. However, most who have discussed this topic at places like the SCR's believe that the possibility is quite high, but without any special identification it would be hard to identify them.

Re: 70 COPO
 

"Either way, both are cool cars - but then, I might be a bit biased too"

I Agree! 360hp out of a 350 stock?!
FWIW, Did'nt the LS5 454 have 360hp?

Phil, which one of us is going to take Marlin up on that offer? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif



Rich

Re: 70 COPO
 

Rich,

Gee that is a tough one. Marlin runs the most consistant 14.4's that I have seen. Seriously-I cannot bring myself to risk the original drivetrain. You know perhaps if I had blown the engine up earlier in life, I might be more risky with it, as you may know in the LT-1 7500 comes up really quick and things get scary fast at those RPM's.

Original motor in your car?

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Arrgh.. I have driven hard alot of 70Z's and never had one come apart. Unless it is not put together right or is worn out it should hold up to a little abuse.

Re: 70 COPO
 

Charlie,

Engine is good, Problem is I get kind of fearless when it comes to RPM's and I am used to high RPM modern fuel shut off. I am not sure I will be able to control my urge to wip it at the top end. I used to race it quite a bit as a kid. Took lots of chances including a 130MPH charge to the "top" one day.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...PO/Cnv1052.jpg

So I gotta pass.. Marlin will have to find someone else to beat up on https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rich,

Gee that is a tough one. Marlin runs the most consistant 14.4's that I have seen. Seriously-I cannot bring myself to risk the original drivetrain. You know perhaps if I had blown the engine up earlier in life, I might be more risky with it, as you may know in the LT-1 7500 comes up really quick and things get scary fast at those RPM's.

Original motor in your car?

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Full original drivetrain in my car, seen 7500 rpms many times - I ain't skeared of your little 'big spoiler' copo https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

BTW, you must have been sleeping last year, it's now 14.2's mister - don't knock another guy's times until you've run a better one https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

All joking aside https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif there is no better feeling than a blast down the 1320 with your fully restored car, regardless as to what it is; a deuce, a Z, a... You don't even have to go fast to have fun, as my 14.2's @ 99mph can attest to. Back to your previous topic of conversation.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: 70 COPO
 

Marlin,

14.4, 4.2, 13.9, all were times run in published road tests on LT-1's at the drags Camaro, Nova and Vette, so you know you are as good as the test drivers!!

But.. Sorry https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif you just cannot egg me on enough to twist the tires on the '70 Camaro. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Good try though... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Phil

PS. Lets compare broach marks on the decks of our engines at the show. I am collecting information on all of the Decking pattern variations for '70. WOW!! You have your original engine that is too cool!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif