New Ford GT
 

Anyone have any insight into these cars? Any feedback on performance, driveability, good things/bad things, etc?? Have a friend who's thinking about one and want to know what to advise him, as I am clueless (all right, hold the smartass comments https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif )

Re: New Ford GT
 

Bill talk to Stefano.

Re: New Ford GT
 

Bill,
I've got one for sale/consignment. Haven't spent as much time as I'd like with one, but it is a street legal race car and the suspension reminds you of that at low speeds,cruising around town, Kinda like the late model Vipers ,the faster you go and harder you corner the better/smoother the car feels. The GT has few compromises.

If he's getting the car as a daily Luxury cruiser than he's better off with the MB/SLR.

Re: New Ford GT
 

I spent about 45 minutes riding in one and was very disappointed. Very quiet almost no exhaust note from the factory which Ford says they were required to do and offer a aftermarket one from their parts department. Car feels like about 450 HP while in the passenger seat. Of the four friends I know who have purchased a Ford GT all of them think it's a dog in factory configuration and are looking at adding HP through a variety of different methods. Three of the four bought 2005 models which spent a minimum of a month at the dealer resolving the various recalls needed on the early to mid 2005s. The fit and finish is very good and the looks of the car are incredible so with a few inexpensive aftermarket bolt on parts the car is a 650 HP killer.

Dealers have provided a variety of answers for their customers when they bring the GT back and ask why it is so slow. One is that from the factory the computer won't let the valves fully open until around 1000 miles. Another is that the motor and supercharger are tight and will get much faster as the owner puts more miles on the car. The final one is that the car is so smooth that it just doesn't feel fast. My local Ford service manager told me their all BS that the car was delivered in a conservative mode to the level of the prospective drivers skill. But with a few extra's the car comes alive.

Dealers are offering at least 10K under MSRP more for 2005s and in some cases free shipping. It's presently a buyers market for a Ford GT IMHO.

Re: New Ford GT
 

look for a lot of these to be getting wrecked by unskilled drivers,like a lot of Vipers when they first came out.

Re: New Ford GT
 

Les' observations are close to mine, and I think some of his thoughts on the GT also came from my feedback, as I recently got my 2006 GT.

It sure feels like more that 450HP to me, but it is also deceptively smooth. At 80 mph in 2nd gear if you nail it, run the thing to the fuel cut off, grab third and keep after it, the car is really very fast. But it doesn't neccesarily feel fast if that makes sense. It is not violent, Ford did want a flat torque curve and it has that. If you drive the car in anger, i.e., jump on it in first gear, it will smoke the tires and go sideways like the 550HP car it is.

The exhaust is WAY too quiet. Ford Racing does sell a $2500 Borla muffler though to fix that - will somebody please make a bandit graemlin? LOL

I have researched upgrades and am currently waiting for a comptuter reflash program that I can swap the super conservative factory tune with. For example, in a stock car, at 150 degrees water temp the engine has something like 32 degrees total timing. At 190, standard operating temp, they pull out 10 degrees of timing! Now go take your Yenko and set the total timing at 22 degrees. I bet Les would be bitching from the passenger's seat about that thing being a dog also. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

I am told by a very reliable source inside Ford AND by an aftermarket tuner that a new supercharger pulley of 2.7" in diameter will give you 18 psi boost vs. 12 psi stock. This with a computer reflash will gain over 100 Hp and 115 ft./lbs of torque AT THE WHEELS. Supposedly near 700 HP at the crank.

The exhaust, while quiet, costs no horsepower from dyno testing. The car is no more quiet than a new Ferrari, let's say, that also has to meet strict European noise standards.

I have not seen 2005's selling at $10k off sticker, but that does not mean they haven't. I think the market has finally settled down and you can buy a car for MSRP. The new Z06 likely caused a lot of this, as it is this year's girl. However, with Ford having just announced the GT is done and they are stopping production early, I think the market may firm up a little? Who knows - all I know is that this is the kind of car you want to buy NEW, not a 2 year old one that has been thrashed by many owners or perhaps crashed and put back together. I think GT's on the secondary market in a few years will be like Mustang Cobras or the Grand Nationals were - a lot of "low mile crean puffs" that really have had a hard life. Check out www.fordgtprices.com for a market report.

Oh, and I agree with Les about the fit and finish. The car is really put together well and I think is a nicely done car. It is a true American Supercar, and in spite of its early problems and the corporate types de-tuning it and muffling it within an inch of its life, it is a hell of a car for the money.

One last tip: Don't make the same mistake I did and get the McIntosh stereo. The ONLY storage space in the whole damn interior is between the seats, and when you get the stereo they put a big bazooka subwoofer in there. When I say the only space, I mean it - no door pockets, no glove box, no bin behind the seats, etc. So when it gets dark you have to throw your sunglasses out the window. LOL

Colin

Re: New Ford GT
 

"So when it gets dark you have to throw your sunglasses out the window. LOL"


Ha !!!!

Re: New Ford GT
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif--How do you think we got ours..

Re: New Ford GT
 

hey Colin do they o-ring the heads or block on these critters??? wondering outloud if the head gaskets will take 18lbs of boost without kicking them out to lunch...

Re: New Ford GT
 

Cramer,
I wasn't complaining from the passenger seat. My Neighbor got one of the first ones since he owns a Ford dealership and took me for a ride. During the ride I mentioned the car was a dog and he agreed so he and I spent the better part of an hour trying to get the thing to live up to the hype in it's factory configuration. We never did get very happy about it. Both of us own 2003 SVT Cobra's and it felt a lot like the Cobra no bottom end torgue , all the power was at the upper end of the power curve. I have driven an 04 Viper and that car has torque every freakin place and feels like an old muscle car. Feels like 510 freakin ponies from the minute you get in the drivers seat. Feels like a car a man would drive and not some guy complaining his 150K Ford GT has no cup holders for his Starbucks Mocha Latte and no storage space for his purse. LOL

I have watched a couple stock Ford GTs out at the track and the two I saw couldn't get below 12.40 at about 121 in the quarter. Meanwhile some joker in his stock Mercedes SL 65 was out there ripping off consistent 11.90s and 12s all night long.

IMHO all those mid 11 second quarter mile times we read about were performed in pre-production high boost GTs and not production GTs. You know how all those guys are who write for the car magazines? Just well lubed shills for the manufacturers? LOL

Yesterday I bumped into my neighbor in his GT and it sounded fantastic and he wants to take me for another ride. He says it's finally broken in and running right. I figure he has the exhaust and a pulley and the car is a ground pounding rip roaring animal now.

I personally love the Ford GT but am not that happy about having to mod it to be happy with it. Ford GTs can be bought for 10K under MSRP and think I will wait until they can be bought at dealer cost and you tell me which mods work and which ones don't. Or wait another year and pick them up even cheaper. I would rather over pay for a premium muscle car from my favorite muscle car dealer than buy a late model depreciation bomb.

Re: New Ford GT
 

[ QUOTE ]
but am not that happy about having to mod it to be happy with it

[/ QUOTE ]Hey Les...thats what you are supposed to do !! As soon as you get it home if not sooner !! The more things change..the more they stay the same ! Except now you do it on a friggin laptop and with white gloves on !

Re: New Ford GT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Les' observations are close to mine, and I think some of his thoughts on the GT also came from my feedback, as I recently got my 2006 GT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ha.........so that's where the dough from the ZL1 went https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

No John, I'm saving up to buy a lake house next to yours. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Hell, everybody knows I used Lester's money for the GT! Now I think Les should come out of the closet and tell us about HIS supercar, with initials "CGT". No mods needed, or so I understand.

Oh, and I'll run any 510 HP Viper any day with a bone stock Ford GT. I've driven plenty of Vipers and they do feel mean. Likely because they are like a real muscle car and get loose in the back and make you feel like a rock star. The Ford GT is like glue compared to trying to put the power down in a Viper. And the (supposed) engineering goal was a solid and smooth torque curve, like an electric motor, according to a book on the GT development I just read. OK, I just looked at the pictures, but so what.LOL

I bet the neighbor's car is stock and just has some miles on it, maybe a muffler. I wouldn't think a Ford dealer would swap a blower pulley. I have been told 500-1000 miles is mandatory to get all the power out of the GT. At least according to the guys on www.fordgtforum.com

So how about a Viper / GT shootout at the Supercar Reunion? I'll drive my car in from Milwaukee if Les drives in from Vegas! LOL

Colin

Re: New Ford GT
 

Juggernaut,
My Vipers are all the 450HP second generation cars. I was referring to the third generation 2005 510HP Viper which I think would easily handle your stock Ford GT kit car as would a stock Z06 Vette IMHO. Not only that what are the chances your GT will be stock by next week?

By the way since you are talking about coming out of the closet and outed us (not that there is anything wrong with that)just make sure everyone knows I am the pitcher and you are the catcher. LOL LOL

Re: New Ford GT
 

Hey Brokeback Quamo,
I'll drag race a Viper, any stock street Viper, heads up with the GT stock. I have to log some miles before I mod it anyway. All it has are K&N filters at this point. Better yet, let's run a road course heads up. When I do open track events and the Viper guys show up we usually get charged a gravel fee because the Vipers drag it all out of the runff areas and then pick it out of their wounds in the paddock. LOL

Here is a link to a guy running his GT in the 1/4 mile. 11.19 @ 134 - yes, mild mods, it has a 18psi pulley, computer tune, and Ford Racing exhaust. BUT, look at how the guy just dogs it out of the hole. Reminds me of how I drag race. That is drag race as in with a car, not when you dress up and race your Vegas buddies down the street in their womens clothing. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

http://videos.streetfire.net/player....5-D669923F6C64

Now you also have to explain the Juggernaut to these guys. This ought to be good. LOL

Colin

Re: New Ford GT
 

Need to add the disclaimer about the ****ing WOW at the end of the video...

That car flies! I want a ride! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

Juggernaut,
I will take that road course challenge just pick a track between our two states all I will need is a 450HP Viper or my 450 HP GT2 to out run that Ford kit car. Between the two of us only one of us has actually raced a Viper on a road course in a challenge series and it ain't you so me thinks you have little or no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Vipers? I also saw pictures of your vintage racing driving handy work at Road America last summer when your vintage 69 TA was piled up on top of 28 other cars. So I think people in glass gravel traps perhaps shouldn't throw gravel???
LOL LOL LOL LOL

I think the last time you drove a Viper was in 1996 when you blew yours up during a burn out contest? Try that with your Ford and see if they honor the warranty? Dodge was always great about letting you break it on Sunday at the race track or during a burn out contest and fixing it under warranty on Monday. Ask your Ford buddies how Ford is about paying for warranty claims after you run 18 PSI of boost and describe it as a "minor mod"?

So you Ford guys call 18 PSI of boost a "minor" mod now to get that turdbox to run like the preproduction cars? I guess we now know what boost the preproduction Ford GTs were running eh? "Minor mod" at 18 PSI that's like calling a nuclear meltdown at a nuclear reactor a "minor problem"

Your the Juggernaut you explain it to them.

Re: New Ford GT
 

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/im...es/popcorn.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

wow, could waste some serious time on that website https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

Children......

Re: New Ford GT
 

Been in the car with Colin...he's really wacked...my money is on him !!! If he can drive some little shittin car with 3 inch wide tires that fast on a congested highway...he should do pretty good where there is traction and everyone is going the same direction.

Re: New Ford GT
 

Dad he started it!

Re: New Ford GT
 

ouch...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...gtwreck0qn.jpg

Re: New Ford GT
 

OK, First: I think it needs to be said that Les and I have made a hobby out of busting each others you-know-whats on a daily basis, and this is nothing new nor some kind of war. Fact of the matter is the little guy always thinks he's right but I always KNOW I am https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif

Now, on to Lester's latest rant. Yes, I did blow up a Viper trans in 1996 doing a burnout. I also owned about 4 Vipers since then and have driven one on the track as recently as 8 months ago when a guy wanted my opinion on how his car was on the track. A Viper is a good car, and was THE car to have for many years. However, the technology has been surpassed and there are better chassis designs out there now, wether it be a Ford GT or the new Z06, etc.
I will take a heads up race with any stock 450 HP Viper against a stock 550HP Ford GT any day. We both need R compound tires and the ability to put in race brake pads so we don't kill ourselves. Remember, Top Gear raced a STOCK Ford GT on street tires against a Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale on a road course and the GT won. The 360 CS is a purpose built road race car with sticky tires, etc. It is my honest opinion that a 1998 Viper couldn't run with either car, but, I am sure Les will fire up his blowtorch and post his opinions soon. LOL

As far as the Group 6 wreck at Road America last year, YES, indeed that was my car in the wreck and I was racing that weekend. However, the driver that was in the car during the wreck was my co-driver, Grant Maiman. Grant is one of the best drivers in recent years to come from the USA. He drove in the Red Bull F1 series in Europe last year, won the Skip Barber national series,is a Skip Barber racing school instructor, and is generally regarded as a stellar driver. He had my car stopped on the track when it got hit. It would have happened to anybody, even a pro like Les. And for the record, it was a 17 car pile up, not 28 as Les states. Let's just say this is a sore subject around here as that weekend should not have happened and it was an expensive exercise for guys like me that are still rebuilding their cars.

As far as my driving abilities, I have never claimed to be a great driver. I have won SCCA Championships in my Formula Ford racing days, and I used to race two vintage cars, a group 5 57 Corvette and a Group 6 Trans Am Dodge Dart (Jerry Titus car). I have been a driving instructor for different clubs since 1990, and do get a lot of track time. I have never raced in the Viper Challenge, but, I think it can't be any more competitive than Vintage Trans Am in Group 6...and I know Vipers are easier to drive than a T/A car on bias ply tires!!!

As far as minor mods on a car, I think any sort of computer reflash, cat back exhaust, or pulley change is relatively minor? Cams, head work, headers, turbos, opening the engine, etc. constitue as major? Any force fed car built in the last 25 years has been prone to be modified for more boost out of the box, in my opinion. Look at Buick Grand Nationals. How many guys didn't tweak the waste gate on those things, or drop the catalytic converter, etc.??

Just my opinions. So, grab the popcorn, Les will be awake soon! LOL

Colin

Re: New Ford GT
 

[ QUOTE ]
ouch...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...gtwreck0qn.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Where can I get some of those white posts. I could use them to keep those pesky teenagers off the lawn. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

[ QUOTE ]
ouch...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...gtwreck0qn.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Where can I get some of those white posts. I could use them to keep those pesky Fords off my lawn. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

We know you guys bust each others chops...My money is still on you...I won't ride with you anymore...you have issues on congested roads

Re: New Ford GT
 

I love a good trash talk and to talk smack about cars as well as the next guy especially with Sports Car Market Magazines new golden boy columnist Colin Cramer but at some point we need to keep it real and filter out the opinions not supported by any tangible data. I am quite frankly astonished that the juggernaut is so uninformed about the current state of late model supercars. Perhaps once something other than muscle cars is discussed you are like a little boy who has lost his mommy??? LOL

Let's keep it real and talk exculsively about factual data. The current third generation Viper has finished in the top three in the SCCA world Challenge series for the past several years. I think they have even won the Manufacturers championship a couple of times as well? The Dodge Viper competiton coupe used in the World Challenge series has the exact same chassis and brakes as sold on the street Viper. The only thing that is changed from a Comp coupe to a street Viper are the wheels and tires and safety equipment is added and interior deleted.

More importantly all the Viper Comp Coupes are PRIVATELY raced with little or no factory support. Yet they are able to defeat the factory World Challenge teams of Porsche, Cadillac, BMW, and Audi. LETS NOT UNDERSTATE THAT FACT AND HOW HARD IT IS FOR PRIVATEERS TO BEAT FACTORY BACKED RACING TEAMS!!! Yet the Viper consistently does this and unlike the factory teams the Viper Comp Coupe is amazingly close to the car sold on the street. The current Viper and the second generation 450HP vipers have a clear race proven history and are well sorted out cars as is the Z06 Corvette.
I don't need to remaind the juggernaut about the second generation Vipers championships at Le Mans and Daytona by team Oreca.

As far as I know the current Ford GT has won nothing and races nowhere I would appreciate it if the juggernaut could direct me to where I might find some actual data about the current Ford GTs racing history? I would also love to see some information on the Competition version of the Ford GT if one exists??

Therefore to describe the current Ford GT as a road racer on par with the Viper, Z06 Vette, and Ferrari 360 challenge car is simply ridiculous and not supported by any data I am aware of? It is unreasonable to claim that a Ford GT because it ran a quicker lap time than a 360 Ferrari on one day is therefore in the same league as the Ferrari.That Ford GT was a pre production 600 HP Ford GT that tested against a 400HP Ferrari 360 Challenge car. The 360 has 400HP and is down at least 150HP to a production version Ford GT and was down at least 200HP to the pre production Ford GT used in all the magazine tests.

Ford has copied the GT from the earlier 1960s era car and through marketing claims it is a road racer. However when the production Ford GT was finally sold to the public it had to be recalled immediately and owners were told to NOT EVEN DRIVE THEIR cars to the dealership because the control arms were failing under hard street use. All the Ford GTs had to be towed back to Ford.

Thats right boys and girls the car Colin claims is equal to the Ferrari, Viper and Vette had to be towed back to every dealership to have all the control arms replaced because the original ones were cracking under hard STREET driving conditions. Whew that is some road racer juggernaut?

Then after the 2005 Ford GT owners finally got their cars back months later from the dealership they had to bring them back again under yet another recall. This time the rear main seals were failing and spewing more oil than the Exxon Valdez again from hard street use!!! The Production Ford GT never even made it to the track before the control arms failed and the rear main seals blew up. Yet Ford and it's army of marketing guru's have somehow convinced the public the Ford GT is a race proven supercar the equal to a Ferrari or Viper or Vette????

Now the juggernaut showed us a video of a Ford GT at the drag strip with "minor mods" of 18 PSI boost turning an
11.1 at 134 MPH. In order to turn that 11.1 that GT had to have a new exhaust, the computer reprogrammed the boost increased to 18PSI by use of a pulley and probably some cold air induction work.

But I am confused? When the Ford GT was brought to the automotive writers for road testing it turned in the mid 11s in the quarter mile yet the April 2006 issue of Road and Track lists the Ford GT as running a 12.2 at 121.6 MPH. What happened to all that power? Why aren't the current production Ford GTs running mid 11s like the test cars??
Road and Track lists the Viper at 12.1 at 119 MPH and the viper is giving up 50HP if you believe Fords claim that the GT is a 550 HP car in production trim?

The Ford GT MSRP is 149,900 the Viper 81,496 the Z06 vette 65,000 and the Vette also turns 12.2 yet gives up 50HP to the vaunted Ford GT. But wait there is more! The December 2005 Motor Trend magazine also tested the Ford GT against the 2006 Viper and 06 Z06 and what did their tests reveal???

The Ford GT turned a blistering 11.5 second quarter mile pass to the pathetic Vipers 12.0 second pass in the quarter and yet when tested on a 1.6 mile road course the Viper was a full THREE SECONDS quicker around the track then the Ford GT. The Vette was a second faster than than Viper around the track.

IMHO the Ford GT was created for Ford marketing purposes and is more show than go in production form. It has no race history in it's current form and Ford has no plans to race the car or produce a comp version. If the juggernaut wants to call it a drag racer because he can't plausibly call it a real road car it is still no faster in production trim then a stock Viper or Vette for double the price.

As to the juggernauts driving skills I have no idea? But what I say to every bench racing trash talking internet forum speed racer is lets meet at a track in identically prepared cars under supervision and let the race speak for itself. It just so happens that the Barber Dodge race series will be in Vegas at the end of March when the juggernaut will be in Vegas for Mopars at the strip. Barber Dodge offers identically prepared race cars and safe racing. I haven't raced in the series in five years nor I have driven the new outside track they are having the races on. Seems fair to me?

As they say at Barber Dodge arrive ,drive and shut up because when the flag drops the BS stops. If we are going to be assigned the same race group we need to sign up NOW.

Re: New Ford GT
 

This is getting good! Where's the popcorn?

Re: New Ford GT
 

I want to remind all of our readers I consider Colin one of the most knowledgeable car guys I have ever met and I meant no harm or offense to Colin this just all in fun and I probably should have inserted some LOLs in my post but was laughing so hard while writing it I forgot. It was not intended to be an attack on the juggernaut just his Ford.

Re: New Ford GT
 

Colin is definitely the "Prankster". I would hope that most everyone understood what was going on between both of you.

I was laughing pretty hard myself! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

I think I got more "information" about the car than I figured I would!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to remind all of our readers I consider Colin one of the most knowledgeable car guys I have ever met and I meant no harm or offense to Colin this just all in fun and I probably should have inserted some LOLs in my post but was laughing so hard while writing it I forgot. It was not intended to be an attack on the juggernaut just his Ford.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood,--When it gets down to the pistol duel --you fellas can square off with toy pop guns.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Colin one of the most knowledgeable car guys I have ever met

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I have to question whether you have been drinking Les https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

I concur with Les on the Viper privateer issue. It is really hard to do alone. When they first came out in 92, I think I was the only one crazy enough to semi-actively race one. We had a lot of "back-door" support from Dodge as well as from Mopar Muscle Magazine. After two years of running the car we had quite a few wins in SCCA Solo 1, and even held a lap record for a year at Sebring. The car was a monster -you really had to keep a handle on the alignment as it was a very skittish car on the track. After two years of racing, the newer Vipers came out and we were essentially rendered obsolete as SCCA placed the new coupes with 50 more horsepower, in the same class as the old roadster. I ended up parking mine in 1997 and now it sits in my garage in its last race condition. In another 10 years it'll probably be worth something for its historical value as part of the Dodge Viper's early history.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...persebring.jpg

Re: New Ford GT
 

Steve really brings up a good point that is worth elaborating on in regard to the early days of the Viper. Today in 2006 it is almost becoming routine for manufacturers to develop these high HP supercars. It's almost like the flavor of the week nowadays.

But back in 1989 when the Viper was on the drawing board the last performance car to come out of Detroit was the 87 Buick GNX which many called the last of the muscle cars after the 73 Super Duty TAs were the last of the muscle cars.

The fact that Dodge built this car at all back in 91/92 was and is amazing. Dodge at the time was floundering and had no performance cars in their lineup at all. To build this car in 92 Dodge had to satisfy a million and one government regulations and cars like the Viper were not popular nor were they politically correct.

So Dodge decides with the help of a guy named Shelby to stuff a 488 cubic inch V10 motor into a car with no door handles or even windows let alone airbags. Having no idea if the car would even sell? Today it is easy to build a Ford GT and project that it will sell. But back in those days it was a terrific gamble by Dodge IMHO.

But not only did they build it. They built it by hand and still build it by hand all these years later. It still is America's only handbuilt muscle car that I am aware of? And lets not pretend it was anything but a muscle car when it was built. It had a 488 cubic inch big block connected to a 6 speed trans with no reverse lockout. It had rear brakes that were smaller than the ones on my shifter Kart up until 2002. Dodge openly admits when their customers started racing Vipers on road tracks as opposed to the drag strip they were flabergasted. They just didn't design it for road racing back in 92.

Lets also give credit to Dodge for sticking with the handbuilt Viper all these years and not making it a two year wonder like the Ford GT. Lets also acknowledge that Dodge created a dealer network of Viper dealers and required them to have a highly trained Viper tech on staff at all times and no other tech is supposed to work on Vipers other than the dealers Viper tech.

Ford has not followed through like that with the GT there is no Ford GT tech and in fact little or no tech training for the Ford GT. I watched in amazement as my friend in town who is the service manager at a Frod dealership tried to sort through the various recalls on the Ford GT. Ford sent no factory rep, sent no Ford GT tech, provided no tech manual and required the dealers to look online for instructions. Fortunatley the serice manager is a former Nascar racer so he could align the car and set the camber castor and toe as well as the bump steer in a proper manner. But other GT customers have not been so lucky and have complained that after the control arms were replaced the cars never handled the same again.

Dodge also over the years has encouraged it's Viper owners to track their cars and covered the problems under warranty.

Steve is an old Viper racer so he was there when Dodge listened to their customers at the Dodge Viper owner invitationals which by the way Dodge pays for every year or two and puts on a huge world class factory backed event for Viper owners and built a competiton coupe especially for the Viper racers to race in the Viper racing league.

This Comp coupe is a street Viper with the interior removed and a roll cage installed built and designed for Skip Thomas's Viper racing league. As a result Viper owners are justifiably some of the most loyal and passionate customers in the car world.

I simply get tired of reading about uninformed media types who bash and dismiss the Viper as a crudely built inferior car. The fact of the matter is the people who hand build Vipers are very proud of their cars and proud to be part of the Viper program.

When you consider that the Viper is the only handbuilt big block American high performance car manufactured today and that the factory shows it's appreciation for it's Viper customers by building a Comp Coupe and throwing a huge party every couple of years at the factory expense for it's Viper owners I think that Dodge and the car deserve more respect and should not be dismissed so easily when a two year wonder comes along like the Ford GT every few years. Really IMHO the Vipers only true American rival is the Z06 Vette.

My two cents.

Re: New Ford GT
 

But the Ford GT looks cooler https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: New Ford GT
 

I hate to agree with Les, but, I do on his latest post.

I purchased one of the first 92 Vipers in the Midwest. It was a big deal, and I remember all the letters and post cards from "Team Viper" and think I still have most of them. You felt like you were in an elite club of hoodlums with this bad ass Batmobile thing. I had to pick the car up in Chicago (only dealer that could get one), which worked out fine as I lived there part time then. So I get this Viper at 7pm, go to pick up my girlfriend that worked downtown, and I remember being like Moses parting the Red Sea driving through downtown Chicago in that thing. Nobody had ever seen one, or so it seemed. I also remember I thought the car was on fire from the smell of melting plastic, but, I didn't care. LOL. It was fun explaining why this expensive new car had fabric windows and no door handles, and how you had to unzip the side curtain to reach in and open the door. Her response was "My Jeep has that feature, and it was ten grand". Hard to argue with that I guess.

We got on I-94 to go to Milwaukee, and as soon as I had a clear path thru traffic, I decided to break the car in and let her rip. At about 120 MPH it sounded like the world had come to an end with this loud BOOOOM and pressure change, then it was windy as hell. I suddenly realized just what those velcro straps inside the side curtains had been for, and also came to the realization that somebody now had my side curtains on their hood. Oh well, I kept my foot in it. How much could replacement side curtains be, anyway?? LOL

It was a great car, although it had many faults. The dealer was not allowed to work on the car as I recall, they would have a "Viper Tech" come in and work on it. I think (from memory) this was the car that had bad head gaskets - it would intermittently get really hot and the oil got milky. They eventually exchanged the motor after doing the gaskets twice, I think it was decided the o-rings at the bottom of the cylinder liners had been disturbed and were leaking? Les and Steve, relax if I am wrong, that was a long time ago. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif

I did track the car and the brakes sucked.

I sold it and bought a 94 with A/C. Then, they announced the GTS (coupe), and I had to have one. What an awesome car, a Cobra Daytona Coupe almost! I got a 96, and it was so much better and more developed than the R/T, or at least that was my impression. I did blow the trans when the clutch pedal stuck to the floor as I was smoking the tires off in front of my shop during one of the famous parties I used to have there. Went for 2nd gear and no clutch. It would still upshift, but not downshift. I think there was a TSB for a clutch problem and that was the diagnosis. That car had engine problems and eventually Chrysler bought it back and gave me a 97 because the frame had defective welds and I wouldn't let them swap the chassis or fix it or whatever they proposed. I already had a NOM, replacement trans car and I wasn't about to let them re-body it (re-chassis it??) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

I also had a 98 GTS, and a Henessey car that I took on trade at one point. That car was a time bomb.

So, I think I have pretty good experience with the Viper. They were the FIRST great car out of Detroit in many years. Chrysler did take a huge risk and really did bring a revolutionary car to market. The dealer and customer support seemed great, if you had a Viper and it went in with a problem, it was a priority job and they got it fixed. I remember that the sent a new trans UPS Red Label from Detroit to Milwaukee. That had to be $700 in shipping?
I know for a fact the Ford guys have no idea at the dealer level how to fix the GT. My dealer said they would have to get a service manual to do my first oil change, and that they didn't have one yet!

Again, the Viper was/is an impressive effort and I would never take anything away from them. However, as a street car, I have owned them and I have driven the new Coupe (2005), and PERSONALLY, I think the Ford GT is a more refined car and the dynamics of a mid engined car with the advanced suspension and good balance Ford put in the car make it a better car for track-day and fast road driving than a comparable stock new Viper coupe. Plus, although hotly debated here, the benefit of having a supercharged motor is the ability to do MINOR bolt on stuff to raise the boost level and make a lot more power without opening the motor. Plus, Ford Racing is making some great bolt-on stuff already with more in the works. They are even selling race tires and lightweight wheels, transaxle oil coolers, nasty GT-40 style headers that are the "bundle of snakes" style and exit straight out the rear of the car, etc. It is a cool car and although expensive, also a gutsy move at a time when all of the big three are simply hemmoraging money. It(and cars like it) are a good shot in the arm and morale booster for a company like Ford. Now, because they are a Ford and an entirely hand built car that was rushed to market, YES, they will have problems and the first 500 cars or so had bad control arms and other faults. Hey, 4 years into the Viper production I had a car recalled for FRAME defects. Nobody is perfect. For a guy like me that loves Cobras and has lusted after a real GT-40 for years and will probably never own one, this is a pretty good compromise. Plus, it can be a daily driver and used for road trips, etc. That is, if you have no luggage. It also is satisfying to look at a design so pure and true to the original GT-40 on which it is based and be proud that Ford actually had the balls to build it and make it work. For the money, I don't think anybody can say it is a lot of car and Ford could have easily sold them for $100k more and not been criticized. Hell, if they only made 500 of them think of how people would be fighting over them !

Like Les, this is just my .02 worth.

Colin

Re: New Ford GT
 

I agree with both Les and Colin in their agreeing with me. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif There were a lot of bugs with the early cars, including a bunch of piston ring sealing problems that resulted in the problem engines being crated up and sent back to Dodge (You actually had to specify if you wanted your original engine back or not: pretty responsive to future collectibility issues, I think). It was neat to have your own Viper Tech at the dealership. My guy would lend me all their tools and let me use them on my own.

I think we got a car that might have gotten a little extra "attention" along the line since they knew we were going to play with it for the Magazine. It has about 7900 (Sunday only) miles on it now. And I do have to say that long hood makes an excellent workbench, as it has been parked for so long in the center of my garage.

Here's the write up on the car from the members rides: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show.../page/1#161420

Re: New Ford GT
 

Whenever Colin agree's with me I get VERY nervous and it also leaves me with no one to argue with. LOL LOL

But Colin while you are in the middle of your Ford GT groovy love fest Midwest tour lets not forget a couple of very important Ford GT facts.

1. It is not really a Ford? Ford does not build this car. Ford originally planned on having their elite SVT unit build the car but fell in love with Steve Saleen's S7 or whatever it's called and contracted with him to build the car. Only Ford didn't do their homework because Steve Saleen didn't actually build the Saleen S7 he contracted it out to a company in England who build it for him. So Ford thought they were going to get Saleen S7 quality (which stinks anyway so what were they thinking? ) but instead got Saleen quality which turned out to be such a terrible nightmare that Saleen fired all his top guys at the Saleen/Ford GT factory after the first year. Ford was so angry with Saleen over the production problems they told him to not bother bidding on any future Ford projects for a while.

In any event the Saleen GT errr I mean Ford GT sorry is built at the Saleen facilty by Saleen employee's. Well that's not exactly correct either is it my juggernaut friend? Because Ford rather than have their SVT unit build the Saleen GT engine dammit I mean the Ford GT engine decided to have Jack Roush build the GT engines for them and send the engines over to the Saleen factory and install them in the Saleen built body and chassis. Which is not a bad idea since Roush certainly knows how to build a fine engine I am sure we would all agree. But unfortunately for Ford they again didn't do their homework and learned later that Roush Inc. subbed the job out to one of his many varied subsidiary companies who eventually installed the wrong rear main seals and created a toxic waste issue for all the oil which leaked out of the early 2005 engines.

However the story didn't end with Roush Inc. sending over the engines to Saleen inc. for installation in the Saleen/Ford GT. Ford employees and especially SVT were not happy at all about the saleen GT being called a Ford GT when no Ford employees were actually involved in the build process so the employee's union had to file a grievance against Ford about putting a Ford Badge on what is essentially a Saleen.

To avoid any further bad press Ford relented and agreed to allow the Roush Inc. engines to be sent to a Ford factory where the Roush built engine would be reunited with the Saleen built body and chassis and installed into a car called the Ford GT.

In my PERSONAL opinion the Saleen/Ford GT is one of the best looking cars ever built. But the fact that Ford doesn't build it in house is a slap in the face to Ford employee's. IMHO the build process resembles more a kit car than anything else?

The fact that people compare the Ford GT to a Z06 Vette and Viper who do build their own cars in house is a slap in the face IMHO to the employee's of Dodge and Chevy who take pride in building their own cars.

Colin , I consider you a friend and you are also the only muscle car dealer in the world I trust to buy cars from. I implore you not to track your Saleen/Ford GT you are a very experienced and successful race driver and will push the car on a track to it's limits. This car is not very well sorted out and in fact very few prototypes were built and tested and and even fewer production GTs were tested(I think three) which is how the control arm problem slipped past and the car does not have years of proven durability on any track you would in essence be the guinea pig? This is a 200MPH car with no track history and I for one would not bet my life on this car with this convoluted build history. My two cents.