Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Wondered if this car would be considered a COPO car?

Special Ordered 1967 - 396 Indy Pace Car Camaro Convt.
This special car was produced after the race, delivered in June 67 for GM of Canada. Oshawa

Likely for a VIP.
It was ordered under special order number 80055.
This was GM of Canada's Show car account.

Produced with special paint and H-Duty equipment. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/...80055small.jpg

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I don't think so given that it was one of 10 BB's ordered at that time.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

So you mean Don Yenko ordered his sYc's one at a time?
Don't think "how many" means a darn thing. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
All the Police cars and Taxi cabs were COPO ordered.
I am SURE those were not one off's.

Here is how Ed Cunneen describes a COPO car on his ZL-1 site:

"INTRODUCTION

COPO stands for Central Office Production Order. Chevrolet dealers would contact the Central Office in Michigan to request deviations from regular production options that were available for the model year. For instance, special color paint could be requested for an additional charge. Generally, options that were requested had to be in current production for other models. Chevrolet engineering then had to grant approval for these vehicle parts combinations.

These types of orders would eventually become instrumental in laying the groundwork to build factory race cars."

Seems to me that ALL the special ordered 67 IPC cars are COPOs,
Especially the 11 Canadian BB IPC's. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

If you didn't want opinions, then you shouldn't have asked for them.

Good luck with your COPO

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

And to clarify, my comment was directed more to your "must have been ordered for a VIP" comment. These cars were put on the dealer's floor for sale when the dealers bitched that they didn't get any Pace Cars. I have a friend who is the original owner of one of the BB cars (and you are right, there were 11 BB and 10 RS SB's) and he still owns it today. I owned one of the SB cars in 1979.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Ask George Zapora if it's a COPO !

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you didn't want opinions, then you shouldn't have asked for them.

Good luck with your COPO

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am looking for some opinions.
But yours seemed like an opinion thrown out there, with no thought. - COPO cars were ordered in large quantities for official use - the number of units would not determine the status.

[ QUOTE ]
And to clarify, my comment was directed more to your "must have been ordered for a VIP" comment. These cars were put on the dealer's floor for sale when the dealers bitched that they didn't get any Pace Cars.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree, some of the 11 IPC cars were put on the dealers floors after they complained.
Those cars seem to have fleet numbers on their trim tag.
A few others were special ordered for individuals, no fleet number - like mine.

[ QUOTE ]

I have a friend who is the original owner of one of the BB cars (and you are right, there were 11 BB and 10 RS SB's) and he still owns it today. I owned one of the SB cars in 1979.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your friend has a Canadian BB car is it registered?
That would make 3 found. he should contact the guys at:

67 Pace Car Forum


Thanks for your comments. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif



I am really trying to figure out exactly how this car came to be made.
What process it went through. either fleet or COPO.

The info is leaning to COPO, but I want to gather as much info as I can.

A friend has a 69 Camaro with "COPO" on his Protect-O-Plate.
His is a SS-350, that his uncle ordered with a 10 bolt, and powerglide.
Not a supercar at all, just a special request.

COPO's came in many shapes and sizes, Not just big motors.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I don't believe the car is registered as few have even seen it in the last 20 years. I've tried to buy it from him, but he has no interest in letting it go. It sat on Maurice Carter's show room floor for almost a year with no bites, they finally painted it Blue and it sold to my friend. I have all of the data from it and pics, but I'd have to look at them to see if it has a fleet code or not, I can't remember off hand.

Years ago, I searched all of the Canadian BB PC VINS and this was the only one still registered in Ontario. I did not try any other Provinces.

How do you know yours was "special ordered" for an individual? I assume it's the car that came out of Toronto years ago and went to a dealer in FL?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

No mine is not that car. That one went to Tampa. 10 Vins from mine.
That is the other Canadian BB they found.

I did also find mine in Toronto, but I bought it from the second owner.
He had said that the original owner worked for GM of Canada.

The Tampa car has a fleet code on it.
No Fleet code and a GM employee - leads me to beleive special order.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Weird - Why were there 11 - 396 cars, and only 10 - 327 cars.

Maybe there were suposed to be 10 and 10.
And mine was for an actual person.

Good discussions like this bring results.

Can you find that other BB car and see if it has the fleet code on it?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Quick question...no pressure. Why would someone with so much interest in Camaros not "Break" the news that all the small block Canada Cars were 327 rs only cars? I had always been naive enough to think that the knowledge was the most important tool to get to the end of any mystery..1979? I don't get it? Also..Whats the mind set for a person to be sitting on a historically significant car for 20 years and not take the time to "register" it? I think I need to hear these reasons so I can better travel the highways and byways of Camarodome. Help me out here https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I assume you are talking to me??? If the RS story is news to you, you need to do your homework. It has been known for about 15 years by the general Camaro public that are into Pacecars that the Canadian SB cars were RS's. In fact, I think that Donna Crispino wrote about it in her book. As for my car, I was 17 when I bought it in 1979 and didn't know it was anything special...I have had the story on my web site for 7 years...

As for the owner of the BB car - he's owned it for 37 years and couldn't care less about numbers and registries. This is common practice for many original owners of these cars that are not on the Internet often or are just private people who don't care to share their business with the world. I know at least 6 owners of 67 Z's who do not share their info publicly.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

This discussion is getting verrrrry interesting. I realize it might be tough for some to consider allowing another class of car into the COPO fold, but Jeff is making some points on his end that seem to outweigh points on the other side. We do have some very knowledgeable members on this site that really need to chime in here, get on this horse and ride it. Giddy-up! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Well lets see. Chevrolet created the COPO system to get cars built a in a manner that allowed for production processes to be modified by the addition of cars that were engineered to an extent. I think these early IPC's cars were built COPO in 67.

Now the issue for Tom and the SYC is to determine if participation will be permitted, - say at the reunion?

Since Member's rides are already in a section for neat or historically significant cars, these 67 0-1 built COPO IPC's would add flavor and tell somemore of the facinating Chevrolet COPO story, and how Chevrolet used it early on.

Charlie--Can you bring the great #92 to the next reunion? If there ever was an example of a special "reverse engineered" car that is one of them. Chevy put significant effort into that car. Value--Priceless.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif


Phil

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

For the record, since I seem to be the only "other side" in this thread. Although I think they are neat cars, I'm not into COPO's, so I'm not protecting any teritory here. Quite possibly these cars may have been ordered using the COPO process, but until that is proven I doubt anyone will consider them COPO's as we commonly think of them. In fact, even if it was proven, I doubt the majority of the collector car community will view them any differently. Should Tom allow taxi cabs ordered through the COPO process to attend the reunion too?

Only Tom can speak to whether they should be allowed at the reunion, but I don't think that a 325hp Camaro would be considered a "Supercar". Again, this is just my opinion and I really don't care one way or the other. The cars that I am into aren't Supercars either by the definition used by this site, but I like them just the same https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif Different strokes, for different folks I guess.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Mark,

Your posts are getting a little dry. I will assume that I and others may be taking them wrong... Your comparison of a 67 0-1 IPC to a taxi Cab is a little insulting - don't you think?

As Who thinks of them? Some 427 COPO Guys years ago may have looked down on a Yenko 350 Nova... and some of the other COPO's... If it was built a COPO - then it was a COPO.

Your comment above pertaining to COPO's:

"Quite possibly these cars may have been ordered using the COPO process, but until that is proven I doubt anyone will consider them COPO's as we commonly think of them"

As who thinks of them?? Either they were built COPO by Chevrolet or not...

Please keep an open mind here.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Phil

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I have to agree with Mark on his point of view and obviously that's what it is, a point of view or opinion. To me, the term COPO is special in that it represents the 1969 Camaros or Chevelle that were factory built with the 427 engine. That makes them a supercar and a special vehicle to me. There were a ton of other COPO vehicles built but for the most part those vehicles aren't really supercars(maybe the 68 Novas with the L78/auto). If a 67 Camaro went through a COPO process to be ordered up as a Pace Car replica, that's some pretty cool history but not a supercar in my mind. If it was done through a COPO process then it could be considered a COPO. But the term COPO is now being overused to try and hype the value of cars when the option(s) added could be pretty basic. Once again, to me a COPO is a 69 427 Camaro or Chevelle. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Thanks Jeff...at least someone understands me https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Phil, the comparisson between taxi cabs and IPC's was made earlier by someone else to prove a point that all COPO's are not 427 cars as the term has come to represent by many enthusiasts. Again, I could really care less and just got into this discussion to express MY opinion, which I believe I am entitled to. I do not want to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else regarding this matter - it just doesn't mean enough to me to argue about it. Frankly, the only reason I even got involved was because it involved the Canadian cars of which I owned one and have paperwork for all of the others. That's the extent of my interest.

You have your opinion and I would never try and deny you that. It is my belief that this thread is attempting to tie some extra value to the IPC's because they are COPO's and I don't agree with that. I think they have value for what they are and that's that. But if others think differently that's fine with me. I am out of this discussion now as I have nothing further to add https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should Tom allow taxi cabs ordered through the COPO process to attend the reunion too?

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that it was a Supercar Reunion.
If you feel that Taxi Cabs are Supercars - let them in.

[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Mark on his point of view and obviously that's what it is, a point of view or opinion. To me, the term COPO is special in that it represents the 1969 Camaros or Chevelle that were factory built with the 427 engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are confused.
A Supercar is a 427 car or high performance special request.
COPO stands for "Central Office Production Order".


[ QUOTE ]
Only Tom can speak to whether they should be allowed at the reunion, but I don't think that a 325hp Camaro would be considered a "Supercar".

[/ QUOTE ]

Who ever said that I thought my 325hp car is a Supercar.
All I am saying is that these are;
Central Office Production Order - Special Events cars.
Any one who would say that they are Supercars would be mistaken.
These cars were made in fewer numbers than the Yenkos, and the cars with no fleet codes were made in fewer numbers than the ZL-1's.
The 67 IPC 0-1 Cars were the ultimate COPO cars.
Special ordered Show cars with direct quality control from Chevrolet upper management.


I guess you think that that 68 Z/28 Convertible is not a "COPO" car beacuse it only has the special folding top.

The Canadian cars with no fleet code, (mine)
appears at this point to be the only one.

I am only trying to figure out the process it went through to get made.
DON'T WORRY I WON'T SHOW UP AT YOUR REUNION.

[ QUOTE ]
But the term COPO is now being overused to try and hype the value of cars when the option(s) added could be pretty basic. Once again, to me a COPO is a 69 427 Camaro or Chevelle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you REALLY woried about what the general public thinks?
If so then maybe the Supercars are not so "super" after all.
A new Corvette will eat any one of the "Supercars" for breakfast.

Again we are talking about a car that need special permission to be made. A car that needed to go through a production loophole to be produced. A COPO car, not a "Supercar".
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I could really care less and just got into this discussion to express MY opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mark, WHY DON'T YOU CARE - You are a Camaro guy?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
the term COPO is special in that it represents the 1969 Camaros or Chevelle that were factory built with the 427 engine.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats what we really love here....the Hi Po stuff

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I have a GM of Canada COPO Service Parts catalogue #749 1967-1974. 419 pages of part numbers and descriptions. Haven't see one thing about the 427 Camaros, Chevelles or LT1 Novas. Guess they weren't important enough to be listed. Lots of truck stuff though such as air tank moisture ejection valves etc. Thought I had hit on a gold mine until I started reading.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Hey Jeff what about The Stingers, Deuces, Gibb Novas etc?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

In the end,(imho) the only copo's that are of any extra interest due to the "copo" name are the 427 and corvette engine transplant copos or "super cars".

The term supercar is generally assigned to the 427 transplant cars, and I think the only non 427 cars that slip into that group originally are the 350/360hp nova, and perhaps surprisingly, the corvair.
As as side note, although taxi cabs and fleet pick up trucks may have been copo's who cares.
The fact is there were probably a great many copo orders for cars that are of no special interest.

Also, a pace car is cool on its own, but I would not call a 325hp 396 powered Camaro a supercar.
Its an option car like a z-28 or an ss.

Officially, some may very well have been built on a copo basis,but only to facilitate an extended production of a limited time offering, not because of any special performance option.
just my .02.
Mark.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Jeff what about The Stingers, Deuces, Gibb Novas etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I forgot about the LT1 Novas. The Stingers never really jumped out at me as a great performance car like the 427 and LT1's. But like I said, this is what makes the term COPO exciting to me.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Geez. I am sorry I even asked.
I guess the only car that should be allowed to use the COPO term,
is a Chevelle, or Camaro with a 427 motor.

Anything else is not worthy so don't ask. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

I will just fade back into obscurity with my 1 of 1,
Central Office Production Special Order - Show car.
(COPSO so as not to upset anyone) 1967 Indy Pace Car.

1 of 1 because it is the only BB Canadian Car with no fleet code assigned to it. I was just trying to determine why it was like that. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Sorry to have bothered you "Superduds"
Sorry, I mean - Super-Dudes https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Jeff what about The Stingers, Deuces, Gibb Novas etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I forgot about the LT1 Novas. The Stingers never really jumped out at me as a great performance car like the 427 and LT1's. But like I said, this is what makes the term COPO exciting to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey what about the'70 Canadian COPO Novas?? Yenkos that did not get converted.. Factory 350 LT-1 Right?


Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

The word COPO doesnt really mean a whole lot unless its attached to other words such as 427 COPO Chevelle, or 427 COPO Camaro.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

IMO....This thread and the discussion that it generated is now finished, as the discussion has become non-productive and risks a fight, so additional replyling here seems to be just stirring things up, and then having fun with it. Sad indeed.

This site is where the world comes to learn about COPO's.

Gives us a bad name when irrational opinions are stated here when even the most basic facts from Chevrolet do not support.

For you guys that derailed this thread and posted here saying the only real COPO's were 427 equipped - thus turining the whole thread sour:

You may be on to something that this board has missed since year 2000 and then continued to miss at each reunion...

Suggestion: You know this is kind of an obscure portion of the board, so tell you what-- why don't you 427 only COPO idea guys start a new discussion using these same thaughts the same way- you used them here in this thread(no cheating now!!!) and do it over on the main supercar discussion section of this board.

Seems if you want to argue about a topic as important as
saying a COPO was only really 427 equipped - you need to invite everyone right??

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I think everyone should remember the name of this website, its called "The SUPERCAR Registry" and you get here by typing in "Yenko.Net"..its not called COPO World, COPO Cars, or whatever. Even Ed Cuneens "COPO Connection" only lists Supercars. Kind of nice that the real Supercar guys let us even talk about our measly Z/28's and SS's.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Sam,

Most people clearly know what this site is about, but perhaps some do not, In case you missed it, look on the front page.

"The PREMIER Supercar site"

"Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars"

Also You should really go and visit Ed's site again in detail, You might have missed some of the detail there. Look on the active portion of left side of the site.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Kind of interesting topic...Doesn't anyone have a buildsheet from a pacecar ? Do they list COPO numbers on them like the 427 cars and others ? ??? Phils spoiler has a COPO number...what do pacecars have ?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Back to the original question he asked, PacecarJeff, what makes you think the car could have been built as a COPO order? I see the 80055 special GM account but I don't think that wouldn't require a COPO order. I see the special paint code as well and I have no idea if special paint would generate a COPO order. I would think somebody with a 67 Pacecar with original window sticker might be able to help. I see a window sticker for a 69 Z28 in Jerry's book that also lists the 1001HA Special Paint but no reference to COPO. But then the 9561 isn't mentioned as a COPO on the window sticker either. Your best bet is to contact Jim Mattison to see what his thoughts are since he was there back in the day.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the original question he asked, PacecarJeff, what makes you think the car could have been built as a COPO order? I see the 80055 special GM account but I don't think that wouldn't require a COPO order.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I want to thank the people who have PM'd me with very helpfull info, and support. Otherwise I would have just dropped the whole thing and moved on.

A few things lead me to believe this car is a special order.

So far, EVERY one of the Canadian Pace cars cars has a fleet code on the trim tag, except mine.

The last part of my trim tag info has a dash: 5BY-,
That is the same as EVERY single one of the known 67 Yenko 427 Cars.

Additionally, I believe that the Special duty "festival" 67 IPC's went through the COPO process for high quality control. And many if not all of the 67 Pace "dash" Cars may have gone to speed shops like Gibb or Harrell to have their engines Blueprinted for performance, as well as their suspensions, and rear ends inspected or upgraded.

If nothing else they were all pulled off the production line to be built and inspected by hand.

And most importantly, some of the very special (special order) cars may have even had 427's installed instead of the 396's.

It is well known that Yenco was "secretly" getting 427's delivered right from the factory. 425hp's as well as 410hp automatics?

Why wouldn't a GM executive be able to do that too, right along with a fleet order. Or, maybe this car was the ONE that was supposed to go to A.J.

It is just strange that there was a Canadian fleet order for 20 cars, and then 1 more made with no fleet code?

These are the questions I have.
I am not trying to intercept the Supercar or COPO name.

I just have found some really weird things about my car, and wanted some help sorting it out.

I thought that is what this site is supposed to be about.
I have owned this car for a long time. I am not trying to sell the car or inflate it's value. just want to learn as much as I can.

I think this car may have some historical significance.
If not, then that is fine, I just find this stuff very interesting.

Jeff https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
many if not all of the 67 Pace "dash" Cars may have gone to speed shops like Gibb or Harrell to have their engines Blueprinted for performance, as well as their suspensions, and rear ends inspected or upgraded.



[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying Fred Gibb and Dick Harrell blueprinted 67 pace car engines and did suspension upgrades? If not, what shops "like" Gibb/Harrell did the upgrades? I didn't know this. A Dick Harrell prepared 67 pace car would be very cool, COPO or not.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this car may have some historical significance

[/ QUOTE ]
Seems to me it already has historical significance...just being a pacecar...finding out and digging for the other stuff is what makes it even more interesting...If these cars could only talk...

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I'm wondering where in paperwork you would find the COPO term mentioned. Do the 69 COPO 427 Canadian cars show the term COPO on the GM of Canada docs? I thought the "-" on the 67 Pace Car trim tags was to denote some sort of special paint(blue nose stripe). Thinking about this(and yes, this is a very informative thread) we know the 69 COPO's and the 68 COPO's exist, but has anyone ever seen a 67 Camaro COPO order? I'm sure they exist, but I can't think of any I've seen information about.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Jeff, I thought the dash code was speculated to be the blue nose stripe. Where did the special modified pace cars info come from (any documentation) or is this information pure speculation.

Why do you believe IPC's may have been copo'd as well as fleet coded. Is there a thread on the pace car site on this topic, because I would be interested in this subject.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

It was interesting to me that all the 67 Yenko 427's had the "dash" on their trim tag.
Couldn't belive that it was just a blue stripe.

Why would a 0-1 special paint car, need a second indicator to reflect a special paint accent.
Either it would have special paint or it wouldnt. The tag would't have to say it twice.

In 69 they used the -- "dash dash" to indicate the same thing. Either stripe delete, or special color.

I belive the the special -- paint code just made the paint operator look twice at the production order. kind of a double check thing. (It was special paint something - better check and see what it says.)

So if the Yenco cars all used the - in 67 to reflect the COPO engine modification, why wouldn't that mean the same thing with the Pace Cars?
None of the Yenko "dash" cars had special paint or trim.
Just Performance modifications.

At this point we don't even know for sure if the C-1 cars and the 0-1 cars were really the same color. Maybe they were different shades of white.

Chevrolet wanted to be sure there were no problems with their "Brand New Camaro", when the whole world was watching.

It only makes sense they would use all HiPo stuff for the Show cars. It is really too bad we don't have build sheets, cause that would solve the mystery.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

67 Yenko cars were NOT copo cars. Most were SS350's with some of the later SS396 converted cars. Never heard of 67 beig copo's in anyform. Where did you uncover this info?

Here is my understanding on the pace cars:

0-1 was thought to be special prepared paint...possibly show finish. Only the festival cars have this designation.

The - in the 5 group was thought to be the non conforming blue nose stripe.

The above has not been definitively proven, but widely accepted.

The only pace cars that were specially prepped would be the the first two or three, that were used or backups to the actual pace car.

We seem to be going into the realm of stretching some facts. Please clarify your 67 Yenko info, one thing we don't want to do is spread incorrect information on this board as fact. Speculating is one thing stating it as fact is another...

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Is it possible to see a picture of the cowl tag for the car in question? Neat, historical car regardless of whether it was ordered via the COPO system or not.

-Jon