1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

See the Repro trim tag on e-bay for an X33D80 car? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...ssPageName=WDVW

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

"Please do not use for fraudulent purposes." https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Well at least he said "please."

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

I am sure that will do it.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

"It makes a great addition to fool your friends or a show judge, but if you try to sell a car thats not a Z using this, bad voodoo will descend upon you, and zombies don't get the girls."

How much clearer could he get? That's a mighty strong warning......... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Hope everyone has a happy and safe 4th!

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

No matter how honest and straight forward this seller seems, no cowl tags, wether they are original or a repro, shouldn't be sold on Ebay or anywhere else....PERIOD!! The only place these repro tags belong is in the trash. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

I just recently passed on a 69 Z that I've had my eye on for several years. It's an outstanding car and no doubt in my mind a real Z, but without doc's whats it really worth? IMO, at this point, a 69 Z/ss/whatever without docs isn't worth any premium at all. It's a real shame for those who own one. A bonanza probally for those with real docs, however.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just recently passed on a 69 Z that I've had my eye on for several years. It's an outstanding car and no doubt in my mind a real Z, but without doc's whats it really worth? IMO, at this point, a 69 Z/ss/whatever without docs isn't worth any premium at all. It's a real shame for those who own one. A bonanza probally for those with real docs, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally disagree very much. How can you say that because a car does not have factory documentation automatically doles it to be a worthless car? Take for example my 1969 Z/28. Although it does not have any original documentation (p-o-p, build sheet, dealer invoices) it is down right original from the air cleaner cover to the oil pan. It retains it original A. I. R. pump, heads, transmission and rear. Not one panel has been replaced and the seats are still factory fresh. Now I give you another example. I have a friend who has a cortez/black stripe 1969 Z28. It is not one bit original but has a build sheet. The motor is a 1972 402 (low compression motor), trans is a 1970 M-22 and he just installed power steering (which is not original to his car) so his wife could drive it with greater ease.

So you mean to tell me that my bone, stock, primarily unrestored 1969 Z28 is less original and holds less value than my friend's Z28 just because his car has a piece of paper attached to it? I think that is bogus statement. I do partially agree with you but it varies GREATLY on car to car. I bet there are undocumented muscle cars that trade hands for stupid money all day long. What about those undocumented COPO cars that do not have lick of factory paper but received Ed Cuneen paper because of their originality! Tough to justify your full statement.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

This will always be a debate, but I know a number of muscle car hobbyists who won't pay a "documented" price for a car without the paperwork. This leads one to believe that real documentation adds greatly to the value of any car, and in somone cases is worth more than the car. Sad but true! The more fake junk appears on the market, the more prospective buyers will demand real authentication.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

By no means does lack of paperwork make a car worthless. I never said that or meant to imply such. What I said was, in my opinion, in this day and age, an undocumented car does not deserve a premium price. That is far different than saying a car is worthless. Certainly in my case that is a fact...ie, I was unwilling to pay what would be consider a "fair" price today for a strong #2 '69 Z w/o docs because I'm afraid of what lies in store for these cars.

The better question to ask I suppose is..Not does your car have less value than your friends, but whether or not your car has less value than a similar Z with paper work? And if so, how much less?

And, as for Ed Cuneen, you were actually making my point not yours with that example. The reason people go to Ed is to "prove" thier car is real because paper from Ed is respected to a degree that gives it authenticity to a car lacking GM paperwork. The reason they do this is becuase it makes their car more valuable after Ed gives his seal of approval.

In any event, I certainly never meant to dis anyones car by my statement.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

Your second question is easily answered... The other Z28 with paperwork is going to worth more in a fair market value verses my no-docs car.

Ed Cuneen does not authenticate these cars to grant them their appreciated values. He documents rare cars to authenticate their originality. If they do not have paperwork, then he must look for original clues in the car, his knowledge and "known" facts to authenticate them.

and no harm done, I just think your question left room for debate... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

Post deleted...

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just recently passed on a 69 Z that I've had my eye on for several years. It's an outstanding car and no doubt in my mind a real Z, but without doc's whats it really worth? IMO, at this point, a 69 Z/ss/whatever without docs isn't worth any premium at all. It's a real shame for those who own one. A bonanza probally for those with real docs, however.

[/ QUOTE ] Man, you are hurting my feelings! I have NO paper work for my car. I believe the car will authenticate itself if you look long enough at it. How many Norwood cars have docs? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

I hear you Sam. You know my story. I have no docs on my car but plenty of owner history and photos. There is no mistaking the authenticity of my car in my opinion. I had a pretty heated reply cause I felt the same way but reading it over again the question on docs seems to have been resolved. Don't worry Sam I'd pay the "premium" for your car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

Us little guys have to stick together Darren! Thanks!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

Hmmm..

Seems my comment may have garnered more attention than was intended due I suppose to a lack of detail on my part which made my comments seems overbroad I guess. I was just trying to express my feelings regarding the whole trim tag issue and how it makes me feels uncomfortable spending a ton of money on a car without something other than an easily faked item to prove it is what it is.

And Darren, I'm sorry if I upset you too. "paperwork", if you will, can come in a varity of forms. To me an owner history is some of the best documentation possible.

If I offended others, I apologize to them as well. I really didnt mean to start a debate. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

Tom no sweat. You clarified your question. No worries. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

[ QUOTE ]
Us little guys have to stick together Darren! Thanks!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]I'm with you as well Sam, my Z has no paperwork but its all there.. As for this tag it reads its a 02B car with the D80 spoiler??? I didn't think that was put on the tags until June or July of 69??? Ohh well my two cents are up.. Mark https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

[ QUOTE ]
By no means does lack of paperwork make a car worthless. I never said that or meant to imply such. What I said was, in my opinion, in this day and age, an undocumented car does not deserve a premium price. That is far different than saying a car is worthless. Certainly in my case that is a fact...ie, I was unwilling to pay what would be consider a "fair" price today for a strong #2 '69 Z w/o docs because I'm afraid of what lies in store for these cars.

The better question to ask I suppose is..Not does your car have less value than your friends, but whether or not your car has less value than a similar Z with paper work? And if so, how much less?

And, as for Ed Cuneen, you were actually making my point not yours with that example. The reason people go to Ed is to "prove" thier car is real because paper from Ed is respected to a degree that gives it authenticity to a car lacking GM paperwork. The reason they do this is because it makes their car more valuable after Ed gives his seal of approval.

In any event, I certainly never meant to dis anyones car by my statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess the hat trick(POP,Build sheet,window sticker)of documentation on a born in driveline 69Z would increase it's value by 35-40% over one without,regardless of condition,less if it's limited to just the POP,or W/S.

When was the last time you saw a 69Z with that level of paper? most of the camaro owners back then were young,and paperwork went in the trash along with their stock exhausts,mainfolds,and smog equipment.

I bought my 69 Cortez/black Z from the original owner of 35 years-he was eighteen,had just returned from his tour,bought it with his discharge pay,the window sticker lasted two hours as he went home and scratched it off with his fingernails so he could cruise the blvd that night and not look like a dork-quick end to one piece of it's history.This was the case with most of these cars-the significance of these items didn't dawn on most till waay too late,who knew? You tend to see substantial docs with the big block cars-they were almost twice as much as entry level offerings and in most cases were purchased by (dare I say it) much older thrity sumpin cats who could afford the note AND knew the value of keeping records of their investment.

I took along hard look at your car while it was on auction,and took a pass because,in part,it did not have a build sheet. Afterwards I rationalized it didn't really matter as the car had won numerous accolades and was well respected in the community.I think it is one of,if not the nicest example of a second gen I have seen,(my buddy took copies of the engine bay to use as a blueprint when he restores his)and wish it was in my garage https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif.I think your car set the tone for the future of valuations for 70Z's of your cars caliber,and it will prove to be a great investment paperwork or not as it has the original drivetrain https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess the hat trick(POP,Build sheet,window sticker)of documentation on a born in driveline 69Z would increase it's value by 35-40% over one without,regardless of condition,less if it's limited to just the POP,or W/S.

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition to the fake trim tags, each of these are being faked as well. The POPs are pretty good, and depending on who does the build sheet and window sticker they range from laughable to almost indistiguisable from real. I agree that when you have two cars in equal condition the one with "real" paperwork will bring a premium. Don't know if 40 percent is a real number or not (thats 12,000 on what would otherwise be a 30K Z28) I'd think no more than 20 percent but that my opinion. But you better be sure what your looking at and know how to tell real from repro.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

70Z.... This just goes to show you great '69 Z28 will be paid a premium for... I would not mind owning Sam's, Darren's or Mr. T's Z28... No docs just means no docs... not much else.

Re: 1969 Z/28 trim tag
 

Thanks for the kind words about my car. I hope your right about the value but in this case it doesn't really matter and I suppose that adds a whole other angle to this subject. You see, this car is an exact copy of the one I had as an 18 year old kid...my first "real" car.

But, unlike alot of you, I'm not a "car guy". I'm just a guy who owned a 70z as a kid who is in a position in life to have a few toys. And while I would never buy a car as an investment, per se, I am concerned about spending 50K on something that may only be worth 30K 2 years from now. Unlikely you say? Perhaps, but I sure don't feel I'm in the position to spot a fake like some of you might. So I need more reassurance. So, to that degree I guess all this paperwork, is it real is it fake crap ony matters to the next guy. In other words, if I'm not going to sell the car who cares? If I might sell it then thats another story. At least to me. I hope that makes sense.

It also doesn't help that there is a guy right here in town whose whole business model is based on building fake 69 ss/z28 Camaros. I've spoken to him and while he seems like a decent person he was quite clear that he could build me a car that was as "real" as I wanted. Whats really scary( at least to me) is he's building 10-12 cars at a time and has a years waiting list!

Hopefully were all on the same page now. I sure never meant to ruffle anyones feathers over this so consider my comments just simply the point of view from someone far less knowledgable than the average person on this board. Hopefully we would agree that this market needs people like me as well. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif