GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I just called and made hotel reservations for the GM Nationals at Carlisle for the weekend of June 25th. I was suprised to find a decent motel available near the grounds. Usually during Corvette Week I have had to travel some distance to get a motel. --- As this is my first GM Nationals weekend, I hope it's no sign of a small turnout. ---Any of you guy's been there in the past -- good turnouts ?

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

GM Nationals are a smaller event than the spring and fall shindigs. Less crowded and more focused, but certainly worth going. The originals display and Camaro exhibits are always good. I'm a Hudson Valley boy too, hope to see you there. Drop me a PM and we will hook up.

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Attendence has been buiding each and every year at GM Carlisle, and I haven't missed the all GM show since they started back in '99. Sure it's a smaller show than the fall or spring events, but if you sorted out all the non-GM stuff at spring and fall it'd look alot like this show. Plenty of nice cars, always a strong sYc turnout, and it's just really hard not to have a good time at GM Carlisle. I must admit the show seems a little Chevy dominant, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for everyone. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif Plus, you just never know what you'll stumble across at Carlisle.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

..This year there will be a bunch of Monte Carlos there too
http://www.firstgenerationmontecarlo...meeteast.shtml
...I may take my 1972 up there https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

...Here's more info on the event
http://www.carsatcarlisle.com/schedule/gm/index.asp
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Leaving wed. nite for Carlisle. Will have 2 cars on display in the GM Originals building: 70 Orange Cooler Nova..5800 original miles and 70 Black L78 Nova..22k miles. looking forward to a good show, weather forecast sounds great. stop by and say hello...

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Wilma,
Looking forward to seeing both cars. We will arrive in town Thursday P.M. Stop by the 1st Gen. Legends Class building... I'll have the '69 Daytona Yenko. Hope to meet more Supercar folks this weekend. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
Rich

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I'm looking forward to the show as well. It would be nice to meet some of the people who I only know through these threads. I'll be set up at space L-45 Sat. selling some Chevy junk. Visitors are welcome.

Verne

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Wilma, Rich, Verne and ALL, As well I look forward to seeing old and meeting new Camaro/Nova/Chevelle friends. I wont arrive until Friday A.M.......and then probably will be immersed immediately into 2nd Gen Legends judging. Jack S(22K Mike Orange 70Z) and other 2nd Gen Legends particpants will be wearing some new Red shirts. PLEASE say hello or at least throw something at me.....
When I visited Chevelle-Abration recently I learned that most of the Chevelle guys will be at a regional ACES show in Maryland. I would hope that in the Future, ALL the different organazations would make it a priority to leave G.M. Carlisle weekend open.....so this show really can GROW!!!!!!!

Chuck Sharin

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Wish I could make it again this year but I have absolutely no money at the moment and can't even find the cash for the gas to drive out there this weekend. Somebody take some good pictures and post them later on.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I'll be arriving there Friday afternoon and will have the L89 set up in the Y Building. Look forward to meeting you folks there as well. Please drop by and say Hi, I'll be wearing some type of tropical shirt!~ Would love to meet some of the people from here.

Drive Safe!

Tom
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Guys,leaving Thursday morning (early) be there around 1:00. I am in the Heritage Class and think in building T or Y??? I will be bringing the MOTION CAMARO and look forward to seeing "EVERYONE". https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif
Mark

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Man you guys are making me homesick.... thanks. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

For 28 years I lived within 50-80 miles from Carlisle and from '87-'99 I rarely ever missed an event there. Spring-Summer-Fall .. GM - Mopar - Ford .. even the Truck event I was there .. I was there for something at least 2-3 times every single year.. And I would pass by the grounds on the pike almost every weekend (York to Bedford for those who know) when I'd go home to visit and work on the Nova I still had at home at the time. ...I had to be flat broke or the weather just completely suck for me not to not be at Carlisle when there was a Muscle Car event going on. I've got photos out the ass I took at Carlisle from over the years and a bunch of tools ..models.. magazines.. stuff.. and even some parts still out in my garage here that I picked up at Carlisle over the years. Since moving here to Oklahoma in January of 2000 I haven't had the time or money(at the same time) to make it back for a single Carlisle event at all.. and it SUCKS man.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif You guys have fun for me and take some good pics to post up here when you get home.. I'll be there in spirit... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Good thing I didn't have plans to go out to Carlisle. Thanks to an emergency, I'm sitting here at work on Saturday and will probably have to come in tomorrow as well. Hope everyone has a good time and keep cool out there, it's gettin hot!

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Here's a couple pics from the event... I'm on the laptop at the hotel, so it takes about a week to upload anything, but hopefully i'll have more tomorrow night. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

LV's cars on display

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

69 Yenko Camaro

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

69 SS ZL-1 Chevelle

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

wheres the other half? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/145522-Dsc00864.jpg
Hey LBI Sam...let's see your photoshop skills on this one. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Just got back from GM Carlisle myself. Another fun show as is to be expected at Carlisle. It's been 95 degrees in the shade all weekend, not the smallest breeze or hint of rain. I bet you're fiendin' Carlisle Ed. As always, it was nice bumping into some of the sYc gang there. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's been 95 degrees in the shade all weekend, not the smallest breeze or hint of rain. I bet you're fiendin' Carlisle Ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man I'm missin it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif
Those temps sound refreshing.. It should cool down to around 95 here in OK around midnight or so https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif No sign of rain for weeks now https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Is that Gus standing behind the Chevelle & Banner. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/145521-Dsc00860.jpg

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Anyone see this at GM Carlisle? https://www.yenko.net/attachments/145530-DSC00005.JPG https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif
I bet there'll be more guys thinking this way now that the new repro bodies are on the market. The VIN was drilled out...but for sale, basically not revealed to anyone but the buyer. I guess you buy a cowl for a $1000 and swap it to your new Taiwan body and it gives the appearance it's the original car that's been "restored." Not sure how all this stuff is gonna pan out with these repro cars being used for rebodies. I'm pretty sure I'd still just prefer to find an original '69 Camaro, that was made by General Motors, in the United States in 1969, and that's never been split in half or had the body or VIN tags removed, but I guess not everyone feels that way. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I bet it's a "clean" title too. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/145531-DSC00003.JPG

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Separated at toe boards.
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/145532-DSC00004.JPG

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Body Tag
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/145533-DSC00002.JPG

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

a fool and his money are soon parted......... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif

just don't be the fool https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

problem solved. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Interesting subject..That cowl section seems like the heart of the car to me. If a repo body was grafted on from there back what do you have ? It would have the hidden vins, the cowl tag, the vin tag and a title . Seems like it was done legally. It is heavy reconstruction but it is not just taking a vin tag and attaching it to another body. The only vin ever on that car would be the one still on it.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I would like to know how many cars have been backhalfed. I bet more than most think. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif The more expensive these cars get.....the more this is going to happen. Its just economics. I was at Carlisle Saturday, it was hot but great! Talked to a lot of good guys from the site. Loved Franks yellow COPO race car!!

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Charley raises a very interesting question. [ QUOTE ]
If a repo body was grafted on from there back what do you have?

[/ QUOTE ] While I agree that the firewall & cowl portion of a car are it's true core, I don't necessarily think it's just heavy reconstruction we're talking about but more like borderline re-creation. I think it may be looked upon differently if it were something like the Uniontown Swiss Cheese Deuce, and it were repro Nova bodies we were talking about. Just saying if it were a legit COPO or Yenko car with some real history, and damage or rust through that absolutely necessitated the deep sixing of all but the cowl, then it seems like a matter of "save it" through "heavy reconstruction" or simply let it turn to dust. But "building" a regular '69 Camaro convertible in 2005 from only a cowl section and a repro body shell, having never owned anymore than the cowl portion of the original '69, hardly seems like restoration to me. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif Kinda feels like transplanting a dead heart. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I agree Erik......

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

But the cowl section and that vin used to be a Camaro convert didn't it ? It looks like a good cowl section so should it just be thrown away ? If you had another convert that was hit hard in the front and this cowl section would fix it which vin should you use ? If you use the vin from the hit car then you have the wrong hidden vins.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

You're right Charley, the cowl was in good shape...and it used to be a Camaro convertible, but now it's simpy the means for someone to recreate a new '69 Camaro using a repro body shell and titling it as a legit '69 with the original VIN.

IMO, whenever a car is split through the rockers and essentially cut down to nothing but a cowl (and having it's VIN tag drilled out and reinstalled) should be issued a reconstructed title. I doubt this is the case with the cowl for sale at Carlisle since it wouldn't have much value if it was an R title. The VIN was obviously being held for disclosure.

I don't argue that the cowl is the heart of the car, and I'm a preservationist too, I'd like to see all '69 Camaros properly restored, but to take a '69 Fisher cowl like that and then create the other 80% of the car out of modern reproduction overseas sheetmetal, and call it a legit '69 with "hidden VINs" is clearly stepping into a gray area.

I think these new cars should be issued street rod type titles to separate them from real GM 69s. I also think cars that are as far gone as that cowl was at Carlisle, need very special consideration before warranting a rescue. Remember, they made over 200,000 Camaros in '69...do you really need to by a new one and stitch it to an old cowl? Who are you fooling? What are you restoring, a '69 Camaro cowl? Even if the car does have some significance, in example the sellers of the new repro 69 bodies at Carlisle metioned to me that someone had recently purchased one to rebody a 69 Z11 Pace Car that had literally "broken in half" during transport. Sure, it's nice to rescue a Pace Car that far gone, but is that Pace Car's cowl on a 2005 Taiwan made body a "restored" '69 Pace Car? Not to me it isn't. If it was a festival car you would have a dash frame and firewall that went around the track in 69, and 80% of a car that didn't even exist until 2005. That's a restored '69? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

IMO... Years ago engine restamping was something that the Corvette guys did. Now finding a dated block and restamping it is sadly commonplace. If fact so common that there are data portals collecting Broach marking photos from original blocks to help pick out the fakes.

The rebody thing with a repro body is not even nearly that sharp yet. As you may recall Fisher body dated many parts of the body sheet metal as it was stamped. The new bodies do not have these dates, so picking out a fake body on a show car would not be hard at all. On a driver quality car where the main issue is how solid/drivable the car is I am not sure if the use of a new body is really that big of a deal, as long as disclosure is made. Chances are if the buyer is paying driver money he should know what he is getting.

If I am buying Big $$ Muscle, and there is lots of undercoating, you can bet I am under it with a heat gun looking for the fisher date codes in several places-prior to making the buy.

Phil

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

So is any 69 Camaro that has Taiwan 1/4's and fenders hung on it a gray area ? What if the owner of that cowl had replaced everything else from the cowl back in a effort to save his car but could only get Tiawan parts. He welds them all together and he has a gray area car ? If he welds GM parts is it not a gray area car ?

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I guess it all has to do with the car's history...I look at it as a little bit of it is lost as original components are swapped out. When all you've got is a cowl and predominantly repro parts then yes I think it's a gray area car. I guess if it was a Supercar then the cowl itself would posess enough life to warrant a rebody with new tin, but it most definitely would be a gray area car, as most of that Supercar body is MIA. didn't mean to start a big debate, I just think these scratch built new '69 Camaros with a vintage cowl and vintage VIN are an interesting new beast that will soon be entering the marketplace. Let's hope they get it welded on square. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I think it is a good debate. My understanding is the new body is 30something panels that have to be welded together at shops around the country. This is not body assembled at a factory in Tiawan but a bunch of Tiawan pieces welded together here in a jig. So you send this cowl section to the shop with the jig and tell them to repair your car. They use the Tiawan panels and repair your car. Seems OK to me. Yes it is not a mint orig but it is still not just a tag swap. It is much better than just swapping tags.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you send this cowl section to the shop with the jig and tell them to repair your car.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are we calling a cowl section a car now ??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Legally the cowl section with the partial VIN and the VIN tag in the dash would be a legal car that can be titled. If that's what it takes to save a car, welding on lots of new body pieces, it's still the same car as it was originally. What's the difference in replacing 1 piece of metal vs replacing half the car? But it comes down to what can you legally call a 69 Camaro. If you have the original cowl, and VIN's and title, it's a 69 Camaro. Personally, I would prefer to keep the body shell which goes from the firewall back to the tailpanel and call that an actual car. If it needs quarters, trunk floor, tailpanel then fine, replace them. But this car is just a cowl panel and I don't see it as a car. It will eventually be decided in the courts at some point in time. I've seen a couple of backhalved musclecars and it really makes you think what you are really buying.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

My first real Z28 had been cut behind the drivers seat and had another half attached with sheet metal screws...It was a real jewel.