old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

i'm about ready to put my edelbrock TR1-X tunnel ram on my sbc and need a few questions answered.was there or is there a spacer or adapter to mount the carbs sideways instead of inline.the carbs i'm going to run are 1850 holley's now i'm trying to get a period correct look is this the correct carb used back in the 70's.on these 1850's i was told i need to run a balance tube for the secondary diaphram so to open correctly.was this how they were set-up back then or did they just run independent of each other. now the fuel line routing i'm currently running the stock 69-70 Z28 metal fuel line for holley carbs.this had a 1/2 line from pump to a brass fuel block then (2) 5/16th lines one to each bowl.i was thinking of running rubber hose from that fuel block to each carb does that sound period correct or is there another way. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I have set up 2 TR systems for myself and one for a friend who has a street rod. Take this info or leave it but it works. I got this info by trial and error and talking with guys who actually run these cominations on the street and who actually don't LIE to you telling how good their combination runs on the street. I think only 2 out of 10 TR systems I see on street cars actually work decent. Here is the engine out of my mustang-see attachment.

1. Get rid of the 1850 4160 carbs and the sideways linkage. They were hardly ever run on the street in the day and were mostly race car only. Those 4160 double pumpers are way too much for any small block on the street even if they are vac. sec. You will end up with gas washing down your cylinder walls and will be rebuilding the engine by the end of the summer. Run two Holley 4150 carbs with 450 cfm inline. (600x2 =1200 cfm is way too much). I had two of the 600cfm 4150 carbs on my car when I got it. It ran o.k. but the 450's were way better and the 390's I finally ended up were the best. I think the very best carb is Holley 4150 390 cfm #6299 (with no choke) and vacuum secondary. That is what is in my pics. 6299 are discont. by Holley but you can find them on ebay just about every day of the week. Do not run the 390 carb Holley still on the books. It is an emision carb. I used the balance tube kit for the v secondaries and it made the carbs run incredible-great as a matter of fact. The balance tubes were not availble in early '70's but came out in '74 ish period. I'm very picky about being period correct but would run the tubes anyway.

The trick to getting a tr to run good on the street is lots of torque. Get this by running the heaviest flywheel you can find, smallest tube headers, and highest number rear end gears like 4:11 etc. Anything less than 4:11 forget it.

I'm running an early 6530 Moroso y-block with 3/8 mainline and two 5/16 rubber lines to each carb. I've never seen guys back then run any type of OEM fuel blocks etc. Not to say that someone did. Just from looking at 5000 old magazines amd seeing original cars. Also a red Holley street electric fuel pump that puts out around 5 psi. Don't go much over that or you will be washing down your cylinder walls. The blue pump is overkill for the street. I've seen some guys just run a mchanical pump. The only problem is you will be cranking the engine alot each time to get it started. With my electric pump I turn it on for 5-6 seconds and it fills up the fuel bowels and then turn the keys and the engine kicks right off. I had the mechanical fuel pump only at one time on my car and I was always cranking the starter.

Best compression ratio for the street with a tr is 9 1/2 to 10:1. You also need to run a very mild cam that produces lots of vacuum. RV style cams work great. You need lots of vaccuum to pull that air/fuel down that long intake at low rpms. If you are running a rumpity rump cam it's probably wrong.

Also offenhauser made the best tr for the street amd most street freaks of the day (who new better) ran offie. That is what is on my mustang-which was built in '72-'74. Offenhauser Tr's for sbc and sbf came out in 1970 anyway and you can still buy them from offie through summit. I know 3 guys that run offie tr on their sb chev's and swear by them. Also a magazine did a tr comparison backin the late '70's and the offies came out on top for the street. Had to do with top plenum size and tube length and diamater.
I have to go back and see my notes etc. There is alot more info.
Dave

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

WOW..great stuff Dave..I snagged a set-up this last fall and have been wanting to read up on proper tuning...please keep sharing your "tune tips"...I really need them as I have never set one up before.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Dave, You sound right on. Small Carbs that run 85-90% efficient is much better than big carbs running 60% efficient. Need steep gears and heavy flywheel. My friend Pete used to run a 50lb. wheel with a 6.17 ring and pinnion and a 3.00 first gear in a Nash 5 speed. Car was 280 cubes in a 57 2 door wagon that weighed about 3400lbs. 10.82 @ about 130mph back in 1979. Carbs were inline (660) center squirters with an Engle roller cam. (G/MP) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif engine whitetop--Are you running a straight linkage ie.-1 to 1 ratio or progressive setting on your linkage

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I'm not really up on street engines,but that looks like one hell of an engine whitetop. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I here Marlin is trying to sneak a tunnel ram on his car to run Frankie. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I here Marlin is trying to sneak a tunnel ram on his car to run Frankie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really...well I will ship mine back to Frankie...

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif We got something going here!

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

LOL! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Don't tempt me! It has taken me everything that I got to not day 2 my car!

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I'll back you up Frank on anything but the Shrunken Head.......

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

will even sneak a set of Southside Machine bars in for ya Frankie...or if you are really feeling Wild... I think I located a set of the lakewood bars for leaf spring cars the style that looked like the ones for Chevelles...the two bars and all the little angle pieces welded in..

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Bud I have all the bolt on pieces for a Day 2 Deuce! Vintage Lakewood slapper bars with the correct rubber bumpers, NOS M/T valve covers with T-bolts, NOS Edlebrock Turantula intake, orange blade flex a lite fan blade, ET finned diff cover, need to get some headers and a Hurst T handle shifter, and lets not forget the CRAGERS!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I'm running Weiand straight linkage. Not progressive. I think the part number is 4011 or something like that. Both of my carbs come out to 780 cfm which even on a little 289 is more than is recommended but it is the smallest 4150 carb available from Holley.
BTW Running a Crane cam, very mild. But it produces a ton of vacuum and torque which is needed to run a tr on the street.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

your getting me confused now https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gifyou mention a 4150 carb "double pumper" then you mention a 4160 "vacum secondary.so what is better for my tunnel ram double pumpers or vacum secondary carbs. i don't think there is room on a TR1-X for 2 inline double pumper carbs.the vacum secondary carbs i've got now the bowls are seperated by less then a 1/2 inch between the front and rear carbs. so your saying a 600 cfm vacum secondary carb will be to much and i should go down to a 450cfm vacum secondary carb for better results.i bought 2 matched 600 cfm vac sec. carbs off of ebay for a good price and all they need is a rebuild. the camshaft that's in my motor right now is the GM #140 solid lifer cam and my compression is 11.5:1 and my rear gear is 3.73.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Don't tempt me! It has taken me everything that I got to not day 2 my car!

[/ QUOTE ] CHICKEN! buck,buck,buck,buck! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I don't think 2-600's are too big. The cam sounds appropriate. Need some good gears. JMO Sam

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Correct me if I am wrong,but I always heard that vacuum secondary carbs did not work on tunnel ram setups because the tunnel ram decreases the vacuum on the engine!I remember a long time ago that my brother had to change out his carbs to non vacuum secondaries in order to get it to run correctly.

Bobby Dodson

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Motion had set up a 454 ZLX tr /(2)600cfm--513rear/hone---
Sam your right with the steeper gears with 1200cfm---But ....as Whitetop pointed out the smaller carbs just make life easier on the street--you could spend more time cruisin an less time tuning---JMHOX2----

VAC/MEC SEC---Would depend on cam/vac venturi size on carbs etc as whitetop pointed out and tr design--Whitetop seems to have a winning combo and you go with what works with your mods---

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/attachments/128...oooooooooo.jpg

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

"72 Camaro with sbc and TR-1X tunnel ram. I made a mistake on the carbs. The 1850 are 4160 models. I thought you had the 4700 series 4150 model. I had a TR-1X and the carbs fit fine inline. Personally I think the carbs look like crap when they are sideways. Reminds me of ET's Head. Also was there not a cartoon character called erasor head?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...2/File0044.jpg

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Whitetop....phone home https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I am wrong,but I always heard that vacuum secondary carbs did not work on tunnel ram setups because the tunnel ram decreases the vacuum on the engine!I remember a long time ago that my brother had to change out his carbs to non vacuum secondaries in order to get it to run correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was he possibly running too wild of a cam that produced no or little vacuum. Car Craft in the late '70's had a very extensive TR setup article for the street. All the pros who they interviewed recommended a VS carb. I think the jist of the article was for the street a VS only used as much gas as needed while a mechanical secondary gives you the gas whether you wanted it or not. I've also talked with many people who had cars like the Camaro posted above and asked them and it always came back to VS were best and that is what runs best on my car.

You have to remember we are talking street cars here with driveability as the goal. More show than go so to speak. Not a street/racecar. I was more concerned about my car restarting at a cruise and not popping/spitting etc. I am not concerned about the power.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Chuck
The 600 vac sec carbs maybe alright for your application because you have 50+ more cubes than mine. I would try them and if they don't tune out right go with the 450's. A friend of mine who built a streetrod with a 350 TR had two 600's like your but later put on my 450's and liked them better. Of course his engine was no where near as radical as yours. I think his had 9 1/2:1 Compression. The 450's are not vac secondary but the motor seemed to like the smaller cfm.

Like Sam said you need to increase your gear ratio in the rear. You may have a bog/hesitation when leaving. I can't over emphasize enough if you want to run one of these on the street you need as much vacuum and torque as you can put into the combination. You will not beleive how much torque you will loose from running a TR. Remember these were designed for the strip with cars leaving at 6-8K rpm. My friend who has the street rod only has something like 3;73(?) also but he is running a 5 speed and had a very low gear placed into it for first.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

The car my brothr owned did have a pretty radical solid lift cam! That could be the reason he could not use the vacum sec. carbs.Wish I had some pics of it,it was a 55 chevy 2 door sedan,straight axle,m22 4 speed.That thing would fly,or at least it seemed like it would.I think I was about 12 when he had that thing,I used to love to go riding in it.Especially the way he drove,he only knew one thing and that was gas pedal to the floor.

Bobby

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Whitetop--Is your car up and running with that engine you showed???

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

It was when I first got it. The engine is the pics is the same as when I got it componet wise. I had it rebuilt and I only changed the carbs and added an electric fuel pump and the balance tubes. I drove it for about 4 months and that when I got most of the kinks straightened out. But had serious issues with leaking brakes, leaking rear main seal and freeze plugs that were weeping etc.(it sat in the original owners parents house since late '70's) I have since tore it apart and it is currently getting the body work done and probably will be repainted later this year. I was trying to save the paint (endless lines, freak drops etc) but the original '70's metalflake was cracking way too much. So late last year I sent it to the body shop.
However I'm not updating the car at all. It will still have it's 15x4 and 15x10 Cragars, Hooker 4 into one sidepipes, sun gauges, crushed velevet interior etc. Everything on the car was chromed including the rear end, driveshaft, springs etc.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Hope you post it when it's done--Luv that old 'skool' stuff- https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif----Didn't your car have some Lace-work in the paint--

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

No lace but endless lines and freakdrops.

http://ourworld.cs.com/davamil/myhomepage/auto.html

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

I remember I liked the way he kept the stang body basically stock---Are you gonna try to dupicate the paint??

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Man Dave I hope they can redo that paint cause it's https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif

How does the car sound with that motor and the side pipes?

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Don't tempt me! It has taken me everything that I got to not day 2 my car!

[/ QUOTE ]

Frank... It's yours... Day 2 it man.... Day 2 it!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/attachments/128...oooooooooo.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed

[/ QUOTE ]


Part of that is it was the '70's and the detail was not as big a concern as today. Also you did not have all the hi-tech billet do-dadds and plumbing back then, you had to fabricate your own. Also to be honest Motion was not known for their neatness. I saw one pic and they added traction bars and spray painted them after instalation and had overspray all over the rearend and gas tank. On the V-8 Vega 454 that Motion did they just took a sledghammer and beat back the firewall. I think a dealership car built today along those lines would have had a custom firewall built IMHO because we have higher standards.

BTW, my mustang TR had a Moroso y-block mounted on a custom stainless steel mounting bracket. Looked much better than Motions setup but I have seen worse than Motions setups in old pics.

In regards to the rubber lines that is what people ran back then. Only the top fuelers and f/c's ran stainless steel braided lines. I started to see SSBL really taking off on street cars starting in the the mid '70's.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Those were some primitive days & crude techniques.
Both at the speedshop AND Factory back then.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

we have built 2 tunnel ram street cars. car 1 was a 68 firebird with a 400" chevy 10.8-1 comp with AFR heads and a comp 294S sam. 10" converter and 3.73 gears. used a weiand street ram with 2 rebuilt 450 mechanical holleys. all we did was drop the power valves lower because of a lack of vacuum because of cam. this car ran awesome and was wicked responsive even with the automatic. never got it to the track because a professional football plater saw it in front of the garage and bought it. car was an absolute blast the short time we had it.
second car was a 68 camaro with a 9-1 454 and LS-6 mechanical cam. 4-speed and 3.73 gears. same weiand street tunnel ram but 600 vacuum carbs. car was pretty mismatched but ran real good for what it was. we ended putting screws in the secondary linkage and it seemed to help but was NOT the way to do this. car looked tough and was a blast to drive. mike

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The photo wasn't really meant to impress anyone Dirty, it was just shown as a reference to a TR setup---Those rubber fuel lines are industry approved gas lines that would have been used in a line splice especially were vibration and stress were a factor-----A lot of Motion photos weren't staged ie guys in white coveralls installing engines with scrubbed clean equipment--the photos were taken as the work was being done--that's what I always thought was so https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif about those old photos of speed shops --Anyway, I'm not here to defend anyones table manners or lack of but you should be impressed by Motion and other HI-PO shops that built cars that set records and ruled the streets in a time were grease under your fingernails was just part of the job------------- https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/attachments/128...oooooooooo.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't need to look pretty to go FAST! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

That was pretty much standard fare back in the 70's.I had the article of Grumpy Jenkin's 70 camaro prostocker from the 1970 issue of Hot Rod,and it mentions how the car was plumbed with"Neoprine" hose,as if this was some kind of state of the art feature at the time.The trick record holding prostock fuel system consisted of some 5/8" metal home heating tubes soldered into the top of the tank with rubber hoses running to 2 Carter fuel pumps,the same kind you could buy for $9 at the local parts store at the time,and the engine compartment fuel lines were all done with hardware store grade brass fittings and rubber hose.This was state of the art back then.This could also be why the Grumps Monza burned to the ground so fast a few years later,but the fancy fuel systems we know today wouldnt be around for years to come.

The real tuth about most supercars was way too sugar coated.Most of these highly valued supercars had sledge hammer adjustments done to fit oversized tires,and exhaust systems,and you have to remember that these super valueable Motion supercars were about as pleasant to drive on the street every day as having a prostock race car with mufflers.That is what made them so valuable,the race car mystique.In reality,they were hard to drive tempermantal beasts that were broken down more then they were running,or at least that was the case of you actually drove yours the way they were intended to be driven.Most of them were either found burned alongside the road because their owners grew tired of their beastly ways,or were converted to full on race cars and evolved off the streets.Thats just how it was.The fact was that the Motion car wasnt anything that the average kid couldnt have built for half the price at the time in his back yard with hand tools.In reality, even the winningest of prostock cars from that era would be nothing more then a bunch of cobbled together parts that wouldnt pass saftey inspection at even the most backwoods track in rebel country today.Back then,they were record hold state of the art race cars.

Re: old school tunnel ram and carbs question
 

Hmmmmm.....very well said IMO.