Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Looking for the Camaro VIN #s guy who keeps the records of VIN/BDY broadcast trim tag #s....Are you the guy from CRG? Anyways, the Trim Tag on this car:
eBay item/4527152627 :versus a Trim Tag I have has a real value to you and to the doc'ing of these...My tag doesnt jive with this guys car! Mine is genuine GM with an 04C date and about 400 cars after his if you go by the trim tag #s----and his is GM too! : with his having an 05A and an earlier #!!!; so I see a discrepency on the run times vs. the date times...Contact me please! Thanx! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ister1/Z10.jpg

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4527152627

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

I usually think a black vinyl top looks good on just about anything, but i must say i think a black top on that car looks stange...kinda like a bad toupee. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

It just looks like a mistake or something.....

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

I was thinking the same thing. The first thing you think of and compare a Z10 to is a Z11. This 69 should be a 50 50 car, not a 50 B car. A black vinyl top does not go well with Hugger Orange Rally Stripes.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

My Z11 which is a documented Canada car has a VIN of 625760, with a body number of 299072, cowl tag build date of 03E. Something does seem just a bit off with the numbers of this Z10.
Motown https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Just wanted to say that the oddness of this tag to my tag represents the discrepencies that occur inside GM at that time , just wanted to add my results to the circle of manufacturing at that time! I cant figure out why my tag has a later BDY # with that 04C date vs. this car above having an earlier BDY # and an 05A date... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif My tag came off of a wrecked Car that was from the Phoenix area alike the origins of this one... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

The Cowl Tag is fine for that VIN car. The Z10's are unique in that they were all ordered at the same time and then built over a couple of week period at the end of April, beginning of May. In 69 body numbers were assigned when the build order was accepted by GM, not when the car was scheduled to be built.

My 04L Z11 has a body number of 317xxx and is only 500 VINs before this car so comparing body numbers between cars in 69 is not always possible, especially when dealing with different models (ie X44 to X33) as some cars just didn't get built right away.

Nice looking car and it will probably bring good money, but you would think on high dollar restorations someone at the paint shop would check out how to paint the rear stripes on a Camaro, they are to close together on this car. (67/68 style). And it doesn't have the Ford "Caution Fan" sticker on the radiator shroud. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

[ QUOTE ]
My 04L Z11 has a body number of 317xxx ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark,
Just wondering about your 04L? What week would "L" be? I thought the weeks of the month were lettered A to D, with an occasional E.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
-Sam

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

They do, except for the last week of April 1969. It goes 04C, 04L, 05A. No one has ever figured out why, but there are several thousand Camaros out there with this date code. Lot's of Z11's and Z10's as well as just about every other model camaro.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

How bout a
69 12467 Nor 289027
720 50 A
03D Z11

Thats the car I posted the pic of in the Bumper sticker post since it has some on the rear bumper like owners would have had back in those days with no second thoughts

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

RPOZ11,
Did the cowl tag you have from the Arizona wreck come from Ebay or was it listed there not long ago?
Motown https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

I think Mark that you have suggested this before but...I think that the DIE must have broke or the D must have been lost at that week! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

[ QUOTE ]
They do, except for the last week of April 1969. It goes 04C, 04L, 05A. No one has ever figured out why, but there are several thousand Camaros out there with this date code. Lot's of Z11's and Z10's as well as just about every other model camaro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark, Thanks! I learned something new today! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Don't think the Die broke, That's the story thats been going around forever, but no other trim tag code used on Camaros requires an "L" so where did the "L" come from. Was the tag machine like a type writer, or is it more like a printing press where each character has to be manually inserted and removed (seems like it would be very time consuming to do 900 of these a day if it was like a printing press)? If "D" was broken or lost why not just continue "C", use E, or start 05A early. The last week of April is only 3 days long anyway. It has a meaning just no one has figued it out. I had a theory that it had something to do with the beginning of building the Firebirds at Norwood (they were transferred over from "L"ordstown) but firebirds started to be built at Norwood the week before the L code appeared (April 19th). who knows what it means if anything. Might have been the guy making the tags intial and it was his last week.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

That's interesting.
Maybe his way of saying,"To L with this Place!".

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Add this to the mix, 05A Z11 with 323xxx body # and 640xxx VIN

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Lets have Mark C offer some more info to this.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Just curious here...any likelyhood that the trim tags were stamped as the car traveled down the line and had the info stamped in as cars were painted, interiors were installed, the engines installed, rear spoilers installed??? So to say, stamped at one area of the facility, stamped again as it continued along down the assembly line as items were filled to the inside order sheets??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif Could there be many trim tag stamp tools available as a chassis progressed thru the plant? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Highly unlikely.
Tags were stamped from the backside,not on top.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

I understand that! Loosely stated was my choice of description for discussion purposes here only... please. Maybe they were stamped after all options met the criteria installed at the end of a certain location point in the assembly line, stamped, then installed then to continue forward towards line completion? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

As stated from the GRG page link above:
" Fisher Body built the body shell from the firewall back, and shipped it through a hole in their common wall to the Chevrolet plant, fully painted and trimmed, including the interior, minus the instrument panel, dash and floor-mounted components, and front carpets." Varying from VN to Norwood in their selective processes...
"Body Bank: Receives the body shell from Fisher, assigns VIN and stamps the hidden VINs, separates them by major Chevrolet equipment and option content, and schedules them in "locked" sequence to the Chevrolet Trim Line; specs for each car are "broadcast" to subassembly and feeder lines throughout the plant."
"Body-In-White Final Operations: The cowl tag was installed..."
"When the body was released from the Paint Shop and it was sequenced into the delivery conveyor to the Trim Shop, Fisher's computer generated their version of a "Broadcast Copy" for each car, called a "UOIT" (Uniform Option Identification Tag), which identified the color, trim, and options information for the Trim Shop build of that particular car; that document was placed on the car at the transfer station for worker reference."
"VIN Assignment: When the body entered the area, the clerk entered the body number from the cowl tag into the computer, which cross-referenced back to the "ident number" and dealer order number. This data resulted in generation of the precise specifications and all the Chevrolet parts required for that particular car, prepared the file that would generate the "Broadcast Copy" when the car was released, and assigned the next sequential VIN number."

So as I see it, all was based on VIN assignment requests per ordering by customers thru their local dealers at the time of deposit, for example...So, the TRIM TAG is based upon whatever information was downloaded into GM's database for each specific VIN ran...and I will guess that VIN's not special ordered received a random paint/trim combination predetermined at GM to fulfill production demands/supply????

How does this look to all? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

So, let's say...in the event of a special order arriving with a predetermined delivery date(Z10's or Z11's , for example), the assembly plant may have been scrambling to fulfill the orders from the Plant Manager and Division requests, so I suppose the #'ing order may fluctuate to help meet the deadlines that were being expected!?
Mark C. : Is it possible to have an "04L" and an "04E" in the same week or two ...based upon your researching? I am considering that if the "E" was used on the assembly line for current cars coming down the line catching up to these cars, could the "L" represent the need to fill the deadline orders so that "E" & "L" were present at the same time due to the fact that the "E" was over there being used simulataneously? This only occurs on the NORWOOD built cars, correct? So, could have any other chassis besides the Camaro use the "L"? As I didnt recall the time line for the Firebird to be added to the mix at Norwood...??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

The build week code is just a representation of the week the car was scheduled to be built, didn't have anything to do with special orders or anything like that. The 04L may be just a typo that went on for a few days, or it may mean something. Maybe someday someone will figure it out.

Body numbers are assigned as the orders were approved by GM for construction. That means the dealer submitted them to the Zone, the Zone checked to make sure there were no incorrect combinations or discontinued options etc If there were they went back to the dealer for correction and resubmittal. Once they were correct the order was sent to the Factory for Scheduling. At this point the body number (BDY on the cowl tag) was assigned to the car. The number was sent back to the dealer as order confirmation and from then on this was the only number used to track the car until it was built and delivered to the GM side of the plant.


The cars start out on Fishers side with only the body number
identifying it and they start out in a random order based on the options and color combinations available at that time.

The VIN's are assigned in the order the cars are received at the GM "hole in the wall" from Fisher. So if the cars start out in a random order based on the availability of parts the body numbers when compared to the VIN will jump around quite a bit.

That's why looking at a body number is not always a good indicator of when the car was built or whether it matches a certain VIN, at least in 69. You can make generalizations only.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

so has any Firebirds landed with this L code in that range date timeframe??? Or has there been a recorded list yet made alike what is being done on our Camaros???
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

They do exist, the lowest 69 Firebird VIN from a car made at Norwood that I know of is VIN 9N100448, and it has a body number of 500433 which would infer it is the 448th Firebird made at Norwood in 69. It's an 04L built car, it's the only one I've ever seen (I don't keep track of Firebird info). I guess if Firebirds were first made in Norwood on April 19th 1969 they didn't make a whole lot of them for the first 2 weeks. I don't know how many Firebirds were made each month at Norwood after production got rolling, maybe 600 to 800 a week?

Maybe there are lower VIN's with 04B or 04C dates on their tags, I do't know.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, let's say...in the event of a special order arriving with a predetermined delivery date(Z10's or Z11's , for example), the assembly plant may have been scrambling to fulfill the orders from the Plant Manager and Division requests, so I suppose the #'ing order may fluctuate to help meet the deadlines that were being expected!?


[/ QUOTE ]
The plant scheduler knew when the cars were required and when they needed to be built. I don't think it was a scramble any different than any other day. There was no deadline for most cars except pacer being at the track. At 900/day, they were barely a blip.....
Order #'s vs build had no fixed relationship.

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

This is the 1st time Ive held and seen discussions on this as thourough as we are attempting. Just how in depth can we document trim tags? Can Judging be performed currently as to the info you support and offfer like you have so far here? Has the JIM guy doing the VIN research thru GM shared, discussed, or offrered any support to you as well as you to him in relations to supporting documenting these cars based upon the efforts currently being attempted??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

As for the CRG group, sYc, and maybe the '.NET' site, can a combined effort be homogulated(sp) for the purposes of placing a permanent chart for what is currently known? Whether it be here at sYc, or as a combined effort shared? Maybe this is going to far, or in the direction of an NCRS theory, but could this be supported in print in the future? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Z10 black Vinyl Top Car on ebay
 

Isn't there a Pace Car registry already that includes this ?