RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Dajudge

Way back you asked me if I was writing articles in the Goatfinder about RAV:

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Are you the same guy who has been advertising in the Goat Finder about the same topic for some time now?

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Was that in reference to this?

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"'UPDA TE FROM LAST MONTH Regarding the controversy stirred by Steve Hoog's letter about Factory RA V Tunnel-Port cars last month we have the follow*ing additional information to share with you: The car in question is a Sliver/Black '70 RA IV/4Sp JUDGE with a 4.33 posl rear, from KNAFEL PONTIAC In Akron, OH. There Is a me*mo on the build sheet "memo 2-38" which lists a price of over $200, not $15 as incor*recdy reported last month. The car is an Original 19,000-Mile car. The RA V engine was blown up when the car was 2 yrs old. It sat stored until the current owner bought it 4-5 years ago, who's name we do not have permission to reve'al. The owner contacted PHS who were very vague in their response to the car. He then contacted Bill Knafel himself and he remembered this particular car being delivered to his dealership with a RA V engine already installed. This is what Knafel had to say:
"We had a number of 1970 GTO JUDGEs delivered to us with RA V engines. Plus, we also Installed a number of the RA V engines at my dealership. After all of these years, as well as we can ascertain, this car was Originally delivered to my dealership with a RA V engine. For doubters call me:(330)-836-0338." Knafel later wrote some articles for Smoke Signals magazine (as well as for the GOATFINDER) which mentioned this car specifically. The owner has nearly one hundred Pontiacs, all rare and collectable, including a '71 LeMans SportlGT with a 455HO Ram Air/Automatic, which the books say could not be ordered, yet the car exists, and Is fully-clocumented!



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No this wasn't me, my guess is it was Bill's son:

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Knafel, W J

2678 Abington Rd
FAIRLAWN, OH 44333
330-836-0338

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I did write one private email to The Goatfinder in reference to a quote by The Goatfinder that was posted on Sean Mattingly's site. The Goatfinder published it without asking my permission.

Then you said this:

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I really believe in my heart that this whole RA V hype job is all about the money.


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No it's not about money. No one has sold anyting from the debate that took place a year ago, it's about history.

Then:

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Hey Steved you want me to let it go? Look back at page 9 post # 59392 just recently you stated that you spoke to a gentlemen "who used to run cars through the assembly line that would end up in engineering only a few feet away." You don't like to be corrected when you are caught. I am just pointing this out so people do not mistake you for the expert that you think you are.

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Yes I did talk to several people on the phone and I some what remember this one person saying things similar to this.

If he was wrong, that makes the entire RAV debate null and void?

After GTAA asked some questions and I referenced the forgone debate, I went back and read some of it. It seems I left some stuff unfinished. I didn't want to restart the original thread, and I SURE don't want to start any negative business back up. Just trying to answer your questions in a peacable way.

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Dajudge

I kept thinking, "something is not right about your contradiction about the engineering building".

Granted I have never been to Michigan and not even seen photos, but I will try to find out more about this. Either the guy you talked to was wrong or the guy I talked to, plus a guy the lives here and I talked to in person is wrong.

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I have also done my own research and contacted GM and spoke to a person who works in GM archives the engineering dept was no where near the assembly line and they also stated that all legacy documentation is now in the hands of PHS

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The guy that gave me the perfect build sheet for the 70 Judge is the one that I talked to on the phone, I can't imagine how else he got that sheet if he didn't work there like he said. Which also validated his reference to the engineering department being a few feet away, to me anyway.

Then... Roy Phillips (long time dealer employee in Tulsa) was awarded a trip to the Pontiac plant in the early 60's. He had a camera, and I posted those pics. He said "there were these double doors right off the line that they let me go in, and it was The Hobby Shop but they wouldn't let me take my camera in there. There were two guys running a SD head casting machine, they were making them right there before me."

I don't have any reason to doubt either of these people, not that they couldn't be wrong. And then, maybe the guy you talked to is wrong?

Then I thought, what if your guy was thinking about the Milford Grounds which is about 25 miles west of Pontiac. Do you suppose that could be where the descrepency could be?

I also know two people who have been in the records room, which I believe is in the basement of the old Pontiac building. Maybe Jim was allowed to move everything since then. I also was told or read (don't remember which), that there is a cage in that room that NO ONE is allowed to go in. Not even Belair. J/K

I'll try to come up with some more info.

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Steve ,

The people I have spoken with worked at GM at the time and they were talking about the Pontiac plant, it was a huge facility and still is.

I am not going to be negative in any way shape or form. People that are considered experts regarding Pontiacs have stated that "No Pontiac left the factory with a RA V installed" Among those experts are John Sawruk and Jim Mattison.

In life if you do not have concrete evidence to support a statement and I mean paperwork not verbal story telling from the past you lose credibility in any endeavor you are pursuing. Facts and supportive documentation are imperative whether you are buying a high dollar car or making a sales presentation to the board of directors a company. I cannot go into a meeting and make a presentation and discuss ROI and life cycle costs etc., without facts and supportive documentation.

That is all I have said all along unless there is documentation in the form of original paperwork to support a RA V engine installed at the factory then you must then assume it was installed at the dealer or even the original owner dropped it in.

All of the cars discussed previously are very interesting and have great history, I have the utmost respect for their owners and in no way am I speaking in a negative fashion about them or their cars.

Everyone here knows how I feel about this topic and I consider it a moot point unless original documentaion surfaces. Respectfully, Mike

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

wont this ever die?With so few,like 6,castiron exhaust manifold made and NEVER a set seen on a supposed factory RA V car.The factory would not have sent a car out with headers.IMHO,Tom

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

OK guys, maybe I incorrectly titled this new thread. Maybe the administrator can change it to what it should be:

"Where is the Engineering Building"

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

At this point I think the exhaust manifold issue should be given to Marty Schorr.

I would guess there were more made than is known, but that's just a guess.

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I talked to George Delorian,he told me as good as he could REMEMBER it was about 1/2 dz.Same with the gen 1 birds.Tom

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I just got off the phone with another GM Engineer who still works there, in Powertrain. Which sits on top of the old Engineering building, the tunnel is still there apparently.

Engineering was connected by an underground tunnel to the administration building which is about a 5 to 10 minute walk. The production plant was about 500 yards from the engineering building, so they were like a tripod of buildings. He said most of the production buildings are gone and that you can still see some of the foundations.

I asked him to give a general perception of why cars went to engineering and he said basically to make mules. He said there were several other reasons why cars went there, and that there were actually enough parts there to build a car. He said they would grab cars off the assembly line like we might grab a bolt from the bin and there was never any paperwork. So PHS would be of little use for any car that ended up in engineering, I hated to hear that but that's the way it is I guess. He said any car built without dum dum would be skipped on the production by a walk through with an engineer, which is the exact same thing the guy that gave me the build sheet said.

He also told me about the black 70 RAV that ran around the facilities, just as the other engineer I talked to some time ago. So I would suspect that car to be as told, probably no PHS on it either. I asked about his opinion on Marty Schorr's accounting of Milford, he said it was possible but he wasn't involved with Milford and could not collaberate that.

He said the facilities as he descibed were basically laid out in the late 60's, so the guy from Tulsa that went there and saw the SD room apparently saw the older layout. He had never heard of "The Hobby Shop", so I now suspect that to be term used with the older SD room.

I dig this kinda stuff!!!! I asked if he would try to find some old pics of the engineering building, he will try. I love pics and that would be some sweet stuff to see.

So that's it for now.

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Here are the exhaust Tom refers to, for the F body. Tom, I think Lance or some one has a set of A (maybe more?). Pic possible because of Andy and Musclecar Review, because I sure don't have a set in real life.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/ravexhaust.jpg

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I have a set on my T/A,they are made for the 303 short deck block,the oil filter does not have a adapter,it screws onto the side of the block.Tom

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Tom

The aluminum block is 303? For some reason I thought it was 400, my memory is floating away!!!

What are these manifolds?

http://www.empgmc.com/race/hotrodravt.jpg

Full Size

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I pulled the alu RA V from the car and replaced it with a complete 303 short deck SCCA motor.The new HPP mag should have a article on it.The Hot Rod mag cover is a complete 400 motor.Notice the oil filter is setup like a long branch motor.The 303 block has the filter screwing into the block from the side.

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Yes now I remember you telling me about the swap, my bad.

So are the manifolds on the Hot Rod cover the A body? My copy is at home, so I can't see what it says about them right now.

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not sure if those are A body.There were a few diff designs which are shown in Petes book.A A body set was on a engine sold by John Glasco a few month ago if I recall.As I recall if you parted the engine out the exhaust manifolds sold for the $18000 range.Maybe he can confirm.Tom

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Tom

There was a local guy here in Tulsa from the 70's and 80's that ran regular in a car called Judgement Day, he was my idol. His name is Terry Drenner and he is going to give me so very cool stuff on his car. I will also have it on our EMPGMC race page ASAP. Here is what I have so far:

http://www.empgmc.com/race/judgementdayt.jpg

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And Terry wrote this to me with the first pic:

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The Tulsa strip with the ram air five engine 477cid I will sent photos off the engine next. These photos are 96ppi jpegs about 5x7 image size. This will get your blood pumping!!!


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Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Tom

Gary has a RAV 400 in his 69 Bird and thought the manifolds looked exactly the same as the pic. After you mentioned they were on the 303, he's now wondering what all the differences are. He has 303 heads but not a block and thinks the machined exhaust services look identical to the nekked eye. Are the manifolds the same for 303 and 400 F? Head surface the same? But the filter mounts are different on the block.

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Tom

Seeing this gets my blood boiling!!! The car ran low 10's, said he got to be good friends with Howards in CA.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/judgementravat.jpg

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http://www.empgmc.com/race/judgementravbt.jpg

Full Size

http://www.empgmc.com/race/judgementravct.jpg

Full Size

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

303 heads are very simular to the 400s,smaller unmachined chambers,takes a long reach plug and usually have smog ports in the exhaust.The block is way diff on the short deck,has a filled in lifter area like a SBC,has the oil filter diff.The 400 exhaust wont fit on a short deck 303 setup as the pass side will hit the filter.Im sure the 303 version will fit on a 400 setup.Remember there were 2 diff 303 setup,std deck with a long rod and the short deck.The short deck has 2 1/2 mains and was WAY more competetive but because they only made 25 of them,they were not allowed to compete.The std. deck 303 was a dog.Tom

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Tom

Thanks for the info, hopefully Gary can figure it out from there. He said he would try to get us some pics of the motor for comparison.

I grabbed the Hot Rod at lunch, there is nothing to indicate what they went on. The right side looks like it might clear the A body from but not the left, looks more like F or big car long branch from this pic.


http://www.empgmc.com/race/ravht.jpg

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

I think they had a proto set for the 366 NASCAR project,might be those as the outlet looks very large compared to my 303s.Tom

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Tom Goad is going to be down here next month and I'll just put it on him. I don't know how deep in the RAV program he was, so it's time to find out.

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Those are some sweet looking manifolds. Imagine if Chevrolet put a decent set like that on a big block Camaro.

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Terry with the RAV Judgement Day passed this along:

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Steve,
I really started with a ram air three 428cid with a tri power set-up (I have one photo off that engine) I will send later. Then I went to a 440cid ram air iv and ran that for some years with different carb and cam set-ups from 2 afb's and then to a 1050 dominator. Played with different intakes, gears, and the list goes on. The ram air v was the big project it was a 455 4 bolt main block with 8 sleeves and then bored to 4.250 with a standard 4.21 crank. The block was o-ringed and I had to make my own copper head gaskets, total of 477cid. The roller cam was a Howard with a intake lift of 778, ex. about 740 if I remember right. I also made a special water system for cooling; you can see some of the plumbing in the photos. That was two Gary Williams 1050 pro stock dominators at $1500.00 each on top (and that was back then). Big block Chev push rods, Ridgeway stud girdle. Springs and all that stuff was Comp cams. Rear end was a Chev 12 bolt with a 5.14 gear. The turbo 400 trans. was my own build with a Tci brake and a 5500 stall conv. These are some things just off the top of my head, if you need more just ask. The car ran in Tulsa, Las Vegas Nev., the Texas Motorplex and orange country in California I ran the best ET and mph in Las Vegas at 9.82 148mph. here in Tulsa was a 10.02. I think I still have the et slip for Tulsa. I lost two motors before I got the combo right, the v engine is not like any other Pontiac there is a large load on bearings a other parts because of the large tunnel port heads they flow a lot of air. The valves I used were out of a ford tunnel port they were Manley stainless. The list goes on! The last motor I used was a big block Chev with Pontiac alum. pro stock heads 515cid this motor was only used for testing because I had ordered a dragster and was waiting for it to be finished. I will also send photos of the dragster too. The rods in all Pontiac motors were Bill Miller or Howard alum. rods. Later on I used Childs & Albert. The best time in the dragster was at Mo-Kan 7.82 at 170mph. The ram air v motor were $10.000 each at that time to build. The dragster engine was &18000.00. When I look back I can't believe I did all this, how far do you want to go with this? Terry


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I did sell that RA 5 motor with the factory GTO exhaust manifolds a few months ago(wrong block),it brought alot more money than i thought it would,so i did give the guy the factory mag pulse distributor,and the complete mag pulse ignition system. It was a neat piece! I would posta couple of pics if i could figure out how to!!

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If you can't figure it out I can post them for you John... [email protected]

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John,did you have the wireing piece that went between the box and the dist.I have the 2 pieces but dont have the inbetween harness.I REALLY want those exhaust manifolds but after putting the numbers together I figured he paid 18K for the exhaust.I was in it for awhile but it just got INSANE.Tom

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This is the engine bay of a 69 RAV (400) Firebird as prepped by Royal Pontiac. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

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RA IV lower pan and no power steering cooler?

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Having some fun with 11 second Bird. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

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Yep, strange looking, isn't it? This was the Royal Pontiac 350 F/S car that Royal prepped and ran using the 350 H.O., then later used the same car to test a RAV 400. The car has double hood tach nacelles too.

With the RAV, it ended up running 11.65 at 121 mph, and it was a tired test engine.

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Tom,i had the complete harness with everything including nos coil,and rebuilt amp,it worked great.The price of the parts was quite surprising,but the exhaust manifolds dont pop up for sale very often.I actually crated the motor and trucked it.The exhaust manifolds were picked up by hand in a new suitcase,and were driven 2500 miles across the country!I wish i would have done a couple of things different when i did that motor,i think it would have ran considerably better,although it was still a handfull on the street.Steve ,i think the manifolds on the hot rod cover,may be the same as the ones Bob Mullikan has on his Judge,he and i actually raced each other a couple of times at the gto nats in 91? Pretty rare to see 2 Ram Air 5 GTO,s with factory exhaust manifolds drag racing!!

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John...those pics are huge files...can you send seperate e-mails for each photo ??/

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Bill Schultz's '69 Royal GTO that was at SCR7...it was a magazine test car back in the day...was it a RAV?

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John,any idea where I can find the inbetween harness,I have everything else,NOS coil,dist and the box.Dave Fiedler made sure everything worked but did not have the connecting harness.I want to put it in my 69 T/A but dont want a trashed up looking harness.Tom

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Belair

If John's files are too big, I have unlimited email size at [email protected] and I can resize and post on my server if needed. I would really like to see them.

John

That other GTO is probably the one Gene Ingle first raced from our dealership. I have pics of it launching at 91 Nats but not you? Would love to see your ride on the track if you have one of those? For the life of me I can't see how that left side manifold in that Hot Rod would fit between the frame rails of an A body, but you never know. I also wonder if they are aluminum.

Then why some one doesn't take a set of the A body manifolds to one of the two places repo'ing them, I'm not real sure. With so much money involved in the rare originals, a couple of copies you think my sell for several thousand in them self.

Steve

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Steve,would cost a ton to make molds,which would you make GTO,Bird?Then how many insane people like myself are out there?Not enough im sure.AND who would give theirs up to make the molds?NOT me.Tom

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Insane https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Actually Gary has kidded around about it, I might just get a hold of one of the companies tomorrow and find out what the scoop would be. I've also wondered how long before some one is making the heads in aluminum RAV style.

Wish I could help you on the harness, but I'm sure you know the few RAV guys I know plus about 20. I doubt a part number would do any good, but if you have it... send it over and I'll check it out from the GM angle.

Steve

Re: RAIV and RAV more continuation....
 

Tom although I don't know what the conectors look like...couldn't one of the aftermarket harness companies make one up for you...if you knew wire lengths,colors and connectors it should be do able...

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First pic...

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/109655-RAV1.jpg

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Second one...