Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Amazing how intact this car is....I'll resize the photos when I figure out how !!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...20X/verne2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../displayLF.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...isplayside.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...20X/engbay.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../TrunkArea.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...Verneframe.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...wltagverne.jpg

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Very Cool! I dig any survivors! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Some interesting stuff there...I have a shot of the frame with the VIN still crayoned on it but it won't post...

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Verrrrrrrrrrry good pictures of this Car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Over forty, and she looks fabulous! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif
-Sam

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

What a gorgeous car, love the color https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

By the way Bob, you better watch your backside when using that "survivor" tag or you may get some kind of legal letter from a certain group of lawyers https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I could look at this car all day---Very Nice Verne--

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Thanks guys,

I've been working with Belair, trying to get the other photos to work. They were all sent in the same format.
To do the feature justice, I wish I had more pics to share. The tie rod ends, spindles and
coil springs still show the factory paint daubs. The steam cleaning (someone) gave
the engine revealed an "S" crayoned on the front of the cylinder head (signifies 250hp
with Powerglide as on the deck stamp). The engine compartment "black out" treatment is
still there where paint was wiped down the steering shaft and the top of the box, also
the rear face of the rear axle housing and panard bar got the same treatment. This black-out is what shows in the photo of the rear of the trunk floor. I believe it was done with a swipe of a mit. This prevented a rear view of the car from showing primer under the rear bumper.
Little things like wax crayon markings on electrical connectors, and paper tags on wiring
harnesses are there. Believe it or not, I even found a paper label still stuck to the
outside of one of the rear brake drums with the 2-letter rear code. That's how the axle
assemblies were identified on the pallet and matched to the car's build sheet.
When I checked out the car in Ind. before purchase, I tried the rear speaker fader and
the speaker didn't work. That was the only thing that didn't function perfectly. When
I got home, I pulled the rear seat cushion, and I found the speaker wire just hanging there.
It had never been plugged onto the speaker!. So I finished the assembly of the car
(roughly 30 years late) and my "new" speaker came to life for the first time!
I really do appreciate owning and driving this car. I've learned a lot from it too.

The digital photos of the engine compartment make it appear as though the alternator and P/B booster have been restored, but they were not. The original alternator was rebuilt due to a bearing squeal that developed, but not bead blasted or painted. The booster still has it's original finish, with a little oxidation and a lime green paint daub.
Ms. Essie must have been the perverbial "little 'ol lady". She was a light weight, as evidenced by the firm seat cushions, and she was from a time when women wore gloves when they went out, hench no scratches or ring marks on the steering wheel. I'm guessing the accessory Chevrolet rubber floor mats were there from new, since there is absolutely no wear at all on the carpet.

This car is not perfect, by any means; it has a small share of parking lot dings and grime here and there, but in my opinion, this is one car that should never, ever be restored - only maintained. And as far as I'm concerned, the Bloomington Gold/Meecum cry-babies (who want private rights to the English language) can go pound sand. Perhaps their fiberglass-rimmed tunnel vision glasses are distorting Webster's definitions, but to my eyes, this car is a survivor. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
....And as far as I'm concerned, the Bloomington Gold/Meecum cry-babies (who want private rights to the English language) can go pound sand....

[/ QUOTE ]

PREACH IT Brutha ! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

I couldn't agree more Verne ! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

It's only original once. Yours is a true SURVIVOR, and gorgeous !!

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Neat car....It is very possible that my dad painted that car. Depending on what shift the car was built and which one my dad was working at the time.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Congrats Verne on a spectacular car and one that can truly represent what the defination of a true survivor is all about. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Beautiful car https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif, and very nicely equipped for 1963! And I agree, too, about the survivor comments https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif This is a car that defines what it should mean.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

moparts,
Did your Dad work for Fisher Body or Chevrolet? Fisher painted the body from the cowl back, and Chevrolet had their own paint dept. which did the fenders, hood and splash pan. If it's possible that we're lucky enough that he's still around, I'd love to know if he might know the meaning of the very faint "17" stamped from the front in the cowl tag just under the paint code. I've documented many, many cowl tags from these cars, but have never seen that. I wonder if it meant it was the 17th one painted that color?

People who worked in those plants back then are a precious resource today.

Verne.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

He did work the Fisher Body side. I will run that by him and see if he knows anything on the number.

I do have one funny story. One of the discussions was on how each different shift marked the cars that they did. One of the guys that worked with dad said one night on their shift they ran out of the normal marking crayon so they took a ball pein hammer and made a dent in the cowl where their mark was supposed to be. So who knows just because some cars don't have a mark where others do doesn't always mean it was removed.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

mo,
I love researching those assembly line practices. Please ask your Dad if he'd be willing to talk to me, and if so, PM me with a phone number and preferred times to call.
I only have about 1000 questions I'd like to ask him, but I promise not to wear out my welcome. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Verne.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Verne, he is a wealth of information. I have spent countless hours quizzing him. In fact, when I was working on my Camaro, he stopped by the shop and gave me the once around on how the cars were built and why things were the way they were. My first show out with the car, SC in Memphis, I got docked for some of the things he said were right on. Kind of soured me on the whole judging thing.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Would Moparts father be able to speak about these Assembly line tactics at an SC Reunion,or just attend in General?
I for one would enjoy listening to what he has to say.
As stated earler,"People who worked in those plants back then are a Precious resource Today"..

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Or how about signing him up on here. I think we would ALL like to hear the stories. I know I would.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Tom,
I've already heard from mo. Unfortunately, right now his Dad is having some hearing problems, so I'm going to send him some questions.
As I said, having the opportunity to speak with someone who was actually there and who took part in making these cars is a precious advantage to those of us who want to know how it was really done.
If I decided to restore a car, I'd rather know it was restored with historical accuracy rather than to an established judges' standard. Knowing it was right would be more important to me than a $10. trophy.
Thanks
Verne. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I hear you about being historical correct. Rob and I still bug him from time to time about how things were done. And, I guess the most important thing I learned from him, the cars were built on an assembly line, by hourly paid workers, so each car was/is unique. That is why the history of how the cars were built is so interesting.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing it was right would be more important to me than a $10. trophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I will be glad to quiz dad on anything you guys want to know.
To say dad is computer illiterate would be the understatement of the decade so I will have to be the translator. That way I can also make some of the stories a little more politically correct. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif Some of the stories will leave pictures in you head that you just can't erase. But as Tom can tell you we have spent many a hours prying information from his 73 year old mind and we are both still fairly sane. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
Here is some background info: Dad worked at Fisher Body in St Louis from 1954 until they closed that line and then he transfered to the truck side until they closed the plant for good in the early 80's. For the last 4 or 5 years GM flew him all over the country trouble shooting paint at different factories.
I want to say this before we get started: if it is about the painting of the cars dad can tell you quite alot, but when the cars left that part of the line thats when the info gets less in a hurry.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Moparts
Does he remember NOT painting cars,but leaving them in Primer for Dealer delivery?
If so,can he tell us what Bodystyles and cars specifically?
Also,if a Car was designated for a Special Paint color code,not a regular Available code,did he hand write that code on that car somewhere?

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does he remember NOT painting cars,but leaving them in Primer for Dealer delivery?

[/ QUOTE ] He doesn't remember any of the cars that they built ever leaving that way. BUT they only built the big cars at St. Louis. BUT when he went over to the truck line they did send out trucks in primer only to speciality paint shops. So like everything else there is always a lot of BUTS.

[ QUOTE ]
Also,if a Car was designated for a Special Paint color code,not a regular Available code,did he hand write that code on that car somewhere?


[/ QUOTE ] When cars came out of primer there was a guy that his job was to look at the build sheets and mark the trim and paint number on the cowl. The build sheet didn't go through the paint shop, the only way the color and trim was know was by what was marked on the trim tag. The build sheets met back up with the car after out of the paint department. A special paint color that wasn't of the norm would not come out of the 3 or 4 hundred gallon containers that the standard colors were out of. The special colors were mixed and sprayed out of a pot that followed the car down the line. This made sure that special colors would be consistant over the entire car.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to know if he might know the meaning of the very faint "17" stamped from the front in the cowl tag just under the paint code

[/ QUOTE ] He said that is a possibility, or could have been a notation to tell what number hose the special paint was in. ( now I did say eariler that special paint was done out of a pot, but (theres that but again) if they were planning to do alot of these cars they would have had a bigger batch of the paint.)

So there is the info I found for the first round. Hope this helps. By the way dad said he would love to see this car in person.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Thanks for the neat infomation. This is the part of the hobby that makes it interesting. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Mo,
You don't know how much I'd love to give your Dad that opportunity. It would be more of a priviledge (and education) for me though to have him look it over and relate many details from his production experience. If I was only as lucky as Tom to be so close. I will be in K.C. Sept. 15-18, but sadly, not with the car.

As to that mysterious "17" stamped on the tag, I have many examples of tags with (what I call) misc. numbers stamped on them from the front. I call them "misc" because they don't appear in an area designated for something normal, and they don't mean anything "normal". They're off on one corner or another, and sometimes sideways or at an angle. They range from 1 to as high as about 22 or so. I've been trying to make some correlations but still have not felt that I really know what they represent. At first, I thought they might signify the body jig (or "buck") that was used to hold together the particular pieces of a certain body style for welding. I figured that would be useful info if it was suddenly discovered windshields or trunk lids didn't fit right any more. They could go back to that jig and make the appropriate tweak.

Gee, I wonder if his "shift mark" is on my cowl???? If he put one there, there's no reason why it wouldn't still be there. (and by the way....the car had a great paint job!!)

I'll put together a short list of queries and forward them to you soon. This is the sort of thing that just doesn't happen that often, and I'm pretty tickled over it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

You guys don't know how happy you made dad. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif Since he has been having some health problems he hasn't been able to get out and do all the things he normally does. So this is something to keep his mind busy with.

He asked if the 17 looked like it was stamped before or after it was painted? And can you tell if the tag has primer under it or was it installed before primer? When the number was stamped would give an idea what it might be for.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Thank Your Dad for the answers Mo. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif
He could probably answer a few more here,and over at ChevyTalk.com too.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Mo,

I'M the one who's happy!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

If only there was a way I could get the car there for him to see in person. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

Show him the photo of the tag at the beginning of this thread (Belair posted it later, because of some problem with the pic) and it seems pretty clear that the 17 was stamped before paint. (from the outside). I may be able to pry it up a tiny bit and look under it, but I think if it was unprimered metal under there, I'd be seeing some rust creeping out from the edges. Also, on all the others I've ever seen, there was primer under the tag. About 15 years ago, we spoke to a gentleman who had worked at the Arlington, TX plant who said the installation of the cowl tag was the last thing done to the body before paint.

.....................by the way, Mo, I lost my Dad when he was 73 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif
Tell him I said, "Take Good Care" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Thats probally right on the primer under the tag. Dad was trying to remember for sure when they did install the tags. I guess the way he talked that the time of tag installation changed over the years a little.

Best we can tell by looking at the pic. is the 1 and the 7 are two different numbers (not on one stamp)? The only reason I bring that up is if it was a common thing to stamp, they would have a 17 stamp made up. Not that it means anything I was just thinking out loud.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I made this thread a sticky for a while since there was some neat info coming in from Moparts....

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Hello Mo,
I was planning to send more questions for your Dad directly to you, but Belair put this here since so many people seem to relish the history he has to offer. So, here are a couple, if you wouldn't mind relaying them to him.

1. During the '63 model year, Chevrolet stopped painting the firewalls body color and switched to a semi-gloss black. I've tracked down when this change happened at all the plants to, in some cases, just a day or two of production. At the St. Louis plant I know it was done between the 2nd week of Dec. and the 3rd week of January. I was wondering if your Dad remembered this change and if he could describe the new process somewhat. For instance, was the firewall done first, then masked with a formed template of some kind when the body was painted, or was the body painted first, with or without a masking, then the semi-gloss firewall?
I've never discovered any body color overspray around the edges of the firewall under the black (or vice-versa).


By the way, the Atlanta plant was completely screwed up. They never changed over and stuck to it. I have cars in my database all the way to the end of production with original firewalls BOTH ways! Let me guess......when they sent your Dad around to trouble shoot paint problems, I wonder how many trips he made to Atlanta.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Tell ya what. I'll just leave it go at this one for now, Mo. Let's keep your Dad's mind active now..
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Thanks
Verne.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I have one question about the semi-gloss black paint while we're on it. Since the change-over (or say '64+ on any body style) how often was it known to happen that a car would get body color floors and not semi-gloss black? I've seen factory pics and original cars like this and know of one guy who went out of his way to repaint his floors black to earn the points lost at a show. Was it just a supply, equipment or plant issue or what?

Thanks, Paul

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

According to Mo's dad, the body color was applied first, with the firewall painted next. A special device was used to protect the jams from over spray. Edwin drew me a pic of this piece and explained where it went, and how.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I remember reading in NNN about how the cars were built at Norwood. They said (as SYC mentioned) that the firewall & floors were painted, then the body. If there was a paint issue, the car was pulled and repaired. One Nova I had ('64) had original body color overspray on the firewall and a layering of black/body color/black under it. I figured the body/cowl needed a touch-up, then they re-shot the firewall. Somewhere in the mix was some of the dash paint. -I think it was first.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Ok.
Body color painted first.

Paint was then baked in the oven.

Car then went through the anti-rust booth.

Firewall was then sprayed using a sheild around the front.

The firewall paint was not baked on.
This happened just before the car went into trim.

They didn't change the way the car was painted, they just added painting the firewall a different color.

Dad thinks this was done to make sure that area had a complete covering of paint. The firewall area wasn't a major focus point when painting the rest of the car. He said something about the paint being a fast drying paint (and maby a rust inhibitor) because the time from the anti-rust booth and trim wasn't long enough for regular paint to dry without a oven. This even makes sense that they would do it in the anti-rust section.

Dad thinks that the change at St. Louis possibly coinsided with the opening of their new addition to the plant.

On firewall not being painted here was the reply.....if one got missed for some reason (like running out of paint) they would NOT have shut down the line to fix it. Any cars that went by in that time just may have not got painted. This would also apply to other non critial area's, such as anti-rust.

Dad said he spent most of his time in Detroit fixing their paint problems.

Now this part I asked him. If the firewall was painted after, then did they remark any of the paint codes? Answer : Any of the paint codes should be under the body color and firewall paint. After the car left anti-rust they had the build sheets to go by.

Hope this helps.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Mo,
Tell your Dad THANKS! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

One thing leaves me a little confused. I've seen many original firewalls that clearly show the crayoned paint or trim codes (sometimes option codes). I wonder if that's just because the paint didn't stick to the crayon ("grease marker"), and overtime, the paint just disappeared from the moisture and elements. When I've seen those on an original car, I sure didn't wipe them off to see if there was paint or bare metal under them. I left them alone! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

It sounds like you're saying that back when the whole car was painted one color, including the firewall, the firewall was skipped until after the bake oven, then it was shot. I wonder why they wouldn't have shot the whole thing at the same time while the "gun was in hand".

I'll post a couple more questions in a bit, if that's ok. Like Tom C., I could spend hours with your Dad and not run out of questions. The history and the truth are SOOOO important. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like you're saying that back when the whole car was painted one color, including the firewall, the firewall was skipped until after the bake oven, then it was shot. I wonder why they wouldn't have shot the whole thing at the same time while the "gun was in hand".

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok.
Body color painted first.

Paint was then baked in the oven.

Car then went through the anti-rust booth.

Firewall was then sprayed using a sheild around the front.

The firewall paint was not baked on.
This happened just before the car went into trim.

They didn't change the way the car was painted, they just added painting the firewall a different color.


[/ QUOTE ]

That was dads recalling of how it was after the change,
sorry about the confusion.

They did paint the whole thing at the same time at first.

The way I understand dad is it wasn't really skipped, it just wasn't worried about since it was a area that wasn't seen. But it was painted with the rest of the car. It was after they started painting it black that it was painted later. The other thing to remember is the cars were coming off the line at a rate of 1 per min. so painting the firewall in the anti-rust booth probally gave them some more time.

[ QUOTE ]
One thing leaves me a little confused. I've seen many original firewalls that clearly show the crayoned paint or trim codes (sometimes option codes). I wonder if that's just because the paint didn't stick to the crayon ("grease marker"), and overtime, the paint just disappeared from the moisture and elements. When I've seen those on an original car, I sure didn't wipe them off to see if there was paint or bare metal under them. I left them alone!


[/ QUOTE ]

I asked dad that same question and he put it this way, the reason for the marks is because the build sheets did not go through the paint booth with the car. So the marks were there to tell them what the car got as far as paint and trim. They were definetly painted over. I am not sure what going through a oven would do to paint over a grease pen.
And dad doesn't really know much about what happened after the car left his area. Someone out there that worked later down the line might know of some of the other happenings.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

Thanks again, Mo.
I'm learning more and more.
If you don't mind, I have a question about the primer.
The red oxide primer (like seen under my '63 in this thread) seems to be everywhere, even in places where it would be hard to cover by spraying. I'm embarassed that I don't already know this, but were the bodies dipped in that primer, rather than sprayed?
The lower recesses of the floor pans have oval shaped galvanized plates (about 3" by 4") screwed down, with sealer, to cover holes in the floors. I'm suspecting those were drain holes for the "dip". These plates never have any primer on them, although the ones in the trunk were covered with the water based spatter paint.
I suppose they "could" have been used with the jig to position the floor sections before welding them together, but I'd doubt that.

Can you continue this educational exercise and add some knowledge here?
Thanks https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Verne.

Re: Verne Frantz's 63 Impala Anniversary SURVIVOR
 

I will ask dad to make sure but I am pretty sure they were dipped in primer. I am pretty sure their name for primer was bondrite.