1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Imagine my surprise to see a very well done 69 Trans Am clone not 6 blocks from my house! Not knowing Pontiacs very well, I assumed that this was not a real TA because of the convertable top. The owner indicated that it was in fact a clone, but indicated that 7 or 8 TA converts were made in 69 making them 6 figure cars today. The car was very well done with the correct white and blue paint scheme, blue deluxe interior, power windows, tilt, gauges, console, 400 motor,auto trans, 10 bolt multi-leaf, vintage air, etc.. What is a well restored (#2), highly optioned, TA clone convert worth?? Any quesses?

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

They made 8 real ones....2 sold last year for over 200K

Lotsa 69 T/A clones popping up hardtops & converts, I would say 20K. Unlike Yenko clones the T/A clones have not appreciated much over a standard firebird. Because there wasnt'a secret Pontiac bigger motor COPO option. And they haven't been in a recent dumb movie.
--------
T/A's had a unique vertical stacked gauge arrangement with woodgrain insert that almost all standard firebirds do not have. Usually a good way to instantly tell a clone. Other than a Vin check with PHS. As well as all T/A's were ram air cars, with a unique one year ram air system.

Both of the above are very rare & expensive to purchase,(like as much as the paint job) and most cloners do not bother with them.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Hi; I would like to add some insight on 69 Trans Ams. The stacked gauges were not standard. A rallye gauge cluster with a clock was, it was code W63. This is the same cluster that a Firebird could be had with or with a hood tach. Please note a hood tach was not available on a Trans Am. The instant kicker is the steel hood. It is the single most expensive part of the car period. These cars all had a functional fresh air hood, however they were not all Ram- Air Cars. Only 55 cars received the Ram AirIV engine in 69.I had the Automatic Original paint 69 Trans Am at Fall Carlise Last year, where I sold It. It did not have stacked gauges in it. I currently have a 4spd 69 Trans Am That does. It is currently undergoing restoration and Is for sale. I also have a 69 400 Firebird Conv, White, loaded A/C P/W, P/T, Auto ,T/A rear spoiler and many other factory items for sale. Both have PHS docs and are the real thing. The Firebirds are just starting to come alive and will be right behind the Camaros before long.You should be able to buy a very nice conv in the 25-30 range I hope this Helps.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif Jim

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

I thought they were all Ram Airs, just not all Ram Air IV. Weren't there 56(?) R/A IVs, and the rest Ram Air III? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only 55 cars received the Ram AirIV engine in 69.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just saw that, sorry. Don't mind me. I'm an idiot with a short attention span.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

THEY WERE ALL RAM AIR...MOSTLY RAM III'S I HAVE A 69 RAM AIR FIREBIRD [NON TA] WITH THE IN-DASH TACH AND THE STACK GAUGES, DELUXE INTERIOR AND AIR WITH A 4 SPEED.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Having owned a complete numbers matching 69 Trans Am 4 speed car I would like to make a few comments. The 69 T/A did not come standard with a Rally Gauge package and clock, these were options. Rally Gauges did not become standard until 1970.What did come standard was power steering and brakes.They also had a power steering oil cooler that mounted on top of the core support just in front of the fan shroud which was notched to acommodate the mounting clips. The standard engine was the RA III. The TA had functional air extractors on the fenders as well as a unique hood and ram air pan set up. They also came standard with a wood wheel in the early cars and the formula wheel superceded this later in the production run. Ram Air birds and TA's had long branch ram air exhaust manifolds.If you ordered an indash tach and gauges the tach took the place of the Rally gauges and you then got the stack gauge set up. My TA was in building T at last years GM Carlisle event. These cars run and handle very well. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

PONTIAC REFERS TO THE STD TRANS AM ENGINE IN TWO FORMS, THE L74 HO 400 ENGINE, IT IS THEN REFERED TO AS THE RAM AIR III MOTOR IN THE ADVERTISING . USUALLY WHEN PEOPLE REFER TO THE GOLFBALL SIZE PORT RAM AIR CARS THESE ARE THE IV'S. THE III'S SHARE THE STD HEADS AS YOU KNOW. CHECK OUT COLUMN 34 OPTION 8 ON PHS'S FORM'S AND THIS SHOWS THE SAME. IT WAS JUST A NAME GAME. THEY DO RUN GREAT AND HANDLE GREAT. I EVEN HAD ONE OF MINE TO THE DRAGSTRIP LAST SUMMER. THE STARTER ABOUT HAD A HEART ATTACK, BUT YOU HAVE TO DRIVE THEM.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif JIM

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Hey, Jim, former DE resident here!

It's my understanding that the engine is called the 400HO, and one could order Ram Air with it. The latter is often called the RAIII. This engine was standard on the Trans Am.

The GTO never had this HO/RA option. RA was standard with this engine in the GTO.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Last summer at the T/A Nats I saw a very nice original paint low mile '69 TA. This car had the D80 Fisher body code on the cowl tag indicating the factory installed rear spoiler. Did any other '69 Firebirds get a rear spoiler from the factory? If not, is this a good indication of a real '69 TA?

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

The only way to tell for sure is to contact PHS and get a copy of the build sheet.

As a rule of thumb, the quickest way to identify a 69 Trans Am is that the paint code should be 50-50 (white/white), and the code D80 should appear on the data plate. The D80 code was the rear spoiler, and the spoiler was not available on regular Firebirds.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Thanks guys for the info. The car does have the steel RA hood and the stacked gauge assembly. The going price is right in the range that you specified. I have contact info for anybody that might be interested.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Well then they spent some money to make it a decent clone.

All 69' Trans Am's were RAIII or 1 of 55 RAIV's, so they all had ram air.
The standard gauge package is not the same as the vertical stacked gauge package, which was available on both birds & T/A's. 80% of T/A's have the vertical gauge set up. This was a transition gauge package between years 69-70. To buy one now complete is about $3500-$4000. I had 6 cyl 69' bird with a factory in dash tach! and it did not have vertical stacked gauges.
As far as GTO's there were 3 step up performance engines available the 400HO the 400RAIII and the 400RAIV. The 400HO is the same engine as the RAIII without ram air. Ratings were 360HP, 366HP, 370HP.
------------
I forgot about paint codes, Mike is right again as usual, paint codes on the trim tag is a good way as well. And of course PHS.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

I have a PHS documented 69 T/A,it has std. interior,and no stcked guages.ALL T/As did not have the stacked guages.They were a option on all birds I believe.A friend has a set in his Sprint.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

I agree tjs44. Had same situation here. But 80% of the time T/A's had the vertical gauges at least thats the figure quoted in the "Firebird" book by witzenberg. But you never know.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as GTO's there were 3 step up performance engines available the 400HO the 400RAIII and the 400RAIV. The 400HO is the same engine as the RAIII without ram air. Ratings were 360HP, 366HP, 370HP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gonzo, this is incorrect for the GTO. The only 400HO was the RAIII. It's correct for the Firebird but with different hp ratings.

The Trans Am should be thought of as being analogous to a Judge, for the most part.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Very true. The 1969 Trans Am was essenially a striped and winged 1969 Firebird 400, with the same options available on both cars. But where the 69 Judge was just a GTO with a wild paint color, stripes, emblems, and a wing, there was really no mechanical differences between the GTO and the Judge.

The 1969 Trans Am, like the Judge, had a unique paint job and a rear wing, but the Trans Am did actually have some additional special parts.

The 1969 Trans Am used a special hood with long, tapered scoops, and the front fenders had functional air extractors. There was also a special front spoiler (basically a piece of flat Lexan) that kept the nose down at high speeds. All three of these items had special part numbers.

And contrary to popular belief, the 1969 Trans Am did not have a rear sway bar.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Although this is getting a little silly now.Here's something for thought.

The terms RA 1, RA2, RA3...are not Pontiac terms or references to their prooducts in the 60's. According to Pontiac you had a HO motor or a HO motor with the ram air option. They weren't responsible for the names associated with them. It was Pontiac engine builders, and guys like you and me that call them RAIII's or RAII's. Only in 69' did Pontiac catch on and actually call a engine a RAIV. Until then there were no cars with RA1, 2, or 3 stickers or emblems. You either had a HO motor with the ram air option or you didn't.
Although NOW Pontiac people can endlessly debate subjects such as RAIII's, According to Pontiac in 69' it was a ram air optioned car... Thats it.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Silly is in the mind of the beholder...it's actually good stuff....how else does everyone find this kind of stuff out ! I look forward to seeing this other brand info. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Let me see, in 68 you had the RA II and base 400(HO) and in 69 it became the RA IV and base 400(HO aka RA III). I've never really followed the Pontiac engines that closely. Oh, and there's a 69 TA conv clone that shows up at the local Hooters cruise night once in a while. They are still cool to look at even if it's a clone. That TA look is awesome.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

The most important part of the 69 Trans Am was the its road gripping suspension. the special 1" sway bar on the front, mated to special springs and shocks front and rear. A 3:55 HD 10 bolt Posi, rounded out the back end and a special varible ratio steering box, enabled it to turn like on rails. These were truely a blast to drive. The Camaro doesn't even come close in the ride and handleing dept. There were also a few built with a Blue vinyl top, and even more wierd, one with a green interior, and a couple in red, . Black was also avaiable, so they are not all blue inside. This summer I looked at a yellow 69 bird race car for sale , it had a real rear spoiler, a aftermarket hotrod hood on the out side. Upon closer inspection it had disc, A/C P/S multileaf, and what was originally a blue interior dyed black. It was a 50 50 blue int car with real spoiler. PHS docs confirmed it was a very optioned Firebird in the right colors, so the Hunt goes on!.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gifJim

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

One correction, Pontiac actually did use the term RAII in 1968. It was used quite boldly in their ad for the 1968 Firebird, with a title "Announcing Pontiac's new RAII..."

Quick rundown of the Ram Air engines, for those non-Pontiac guys... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Ram Air was first offered as an over the counter kit in mid-year 1965 for the tri-power. The kit had the pan, seal, and instructions on how to cut the hood scoop open.

Popularity grew, and Pontiac added Ram Air to the option list in 1966. The kit was delivered in the trunks of GTO's, and had to be installed by the dealer. One of the stranger stories with this setup was that apparently these kits were removed by some inspection workers, thinking that line workers were smuggling parts out of the factory.

In 1967, Pontiac introduced their "Ram Air" engine, which had 4.33 gears out back as standard equipment. Very rare cars. The old high output 400 was dubbed 400 HO.

In 1968, the Ram Air engine continued, as well as the 400 HO. At mid-year, Pontiac released a round exhaust port version of their Ram Air package, and called it Ram Air II. The old 1967 engine was now referred to as Ram Air I.

For 1969, a new engine with redesigned round port heads, aluminum intake, wild cam, and 1.65 rocker arms came out. The original prototype used a funky Ram Air baseplate, and drew air from both hood scoops, as well as air from two large 4" tubes coming off the bottom of the baseplate and running up through the core support. This meant there were 4 ways to get air, and they called it Ram Air 4. Pontiac Engineers decided the air cleaner was too much (although it showed up in a few road tests), and the stylists like the roman numeral designation IV (they said it looked better on the hood scoop), hence Ram Air IV. The Ram Air II was gone.

The old 400 HO was still there, and was marketed as such in the brochures. It was to be the standard 69 Judge and Trans Am engine, and optional on the GTO and Firebird.

In 1970, things remained essentially unchanged. The term "Ram Air" had become so popular, and was so synonomous with Pontiac performance, that the 400 HO was now being called Ram Air III. This actually worked well, as 400 HO didn't signify that it was one step below the Ram Air IV.

All these engines went https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif pretty well.

A lot of people in 1969 wondered why Pontiac went from RAII to RAIV, but it really wasn't a jump in series, it was a simply a better sounding name than Ram Air III.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Da Judge, hit nail on head! I'll expound just alittle. Most all TAs had the ralleys & decor(they are listed as option, & well show on PHS) Judges had them as standard equipment.
I have a 69 raiv TA,100% #s match. It is done to concours level. No console, or ralleys just poverty caps, stack tach & gauges, close ratio 4spd . They are great cars, & ex. rare

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

[ QUOTE ]

In 1968, the Ram Air engine continued, as well as the 400 HO. At mid-year, Pontiac released a round exhaust port version of their Ram Air package, and called it Ram Air II. The old 1967 engine was now referred to as Ram Air I.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike's right, but I'd like to clarify two things: the quote above . . . the RAII replaced the RAI mid-year. They did not run concurrently. Also, through 1965-68, Ram Air was available as an accessory package on the GTO's lesser engines. The 1968 GTO that Hot Rod tested has this even though it was the standard 400/350 engine. Further proof is that the car did not get 4.33 gears (for some reason, Ram Air Firebirds received 3.90s instead.)

Here's the engine roster for 1967-69, excluding the 2bbl. engines:

1967
400/335
400HO/360
400RA/360

1968
400/350
400HO/360
400RA/360
400RAII/366

1969
400/350
400RAIII/366 (no relation to the RAII, despite similar rating.)
400RAIV/370

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Great info! I also have that Hot Rod test, and it's very vague as to what that GTO actually had under the hood. I think there was as much confusion back in 1968 as there is today! Imagine in consecutive model years, Pontiac went from a 389 (66), to a 400 (67), to a mid-year RAII (68) with round port heads, to a RAIV (69), to a 455 (70), then a 455 HO (71/72), then an SD455 (73). Talk about yer quick engine development. Nowadays, manufacturers keep the same engine for years, maybe tweaking the computer here and there and marketing it as a selling point.

The Ram Air setup was available as a seperate option without ordering the Ram Air engine. I believe the 1969 Firebird option list has a code for Ram Air Inlet, which allowed a buyer to get a Ram Air setup without getting the RAIII or RAIV option.

Pontiacs are too confusing. I'm going back to Buick.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Notice specific reference to RAIII. Granted parts cataloging does not indicate what was on the original order sheets, however it is a GM publication. Whether GM referred to RAIII at point A or B, is not so much relevant to the fact that GM did reference RAIII.

Notice also 67 listing for Ramair, not just a matter of a pan in the trunk? I would imagine this meant cam in engine from assembly line.

GM is not an exact science, explore the facts with caution.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Steve, yep, as I stated above, Pontiac started calling the 400 HO the Ram Air III in 1970 in their internal documents, but not on the window stickers or on the order forms. Pontiac also never had hood scoop decals that said "Ram Air III", they simply said "Ram Air".

And yes, the 1967 Ram Air engine (later known as Ram Air 1) was a different animal than just getting the Ram Air option on a 1967 GTO. The 1967 Ram Air engine included the Ram Air setup, but also a different cam, better valvesprings, and 4.33 gears. They were sort of the shotgun version of a GTO, designed for dragstrip duty and street racing.

Cool cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Sounds like the Drag Pack combination on the Fords.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Mike

Wasn't directing that at you, yours was just the last post to reply from. My bad.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Steve, no problem! I realized you were commenting on other posts. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Back to the T/A clone topic, another odd thing about the 69 Trans Am's were the grilles. The standard 69 Firebird used silver/gray grilles, the Firebird 400's used the same silver/gray grilles, but had a unique chrome trim surrounding each grille, while the Trans Am (built off the Firebird 400) did NOT use the chrome 400 grille surrounds. They simply blacked out the grille.

Other discrepancies are the front bumper arrowhead emblem, which all Trans Am's and Firebird 400's had (but many promo photos show Trans Am's without the emblem), and depending on the build date, sometimes the blue stripes on the rear deck went under the spoiler (leaving the spoiler white), and sometimes the stripes went over the spoiler.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

"1969
400/350
400RAIII/366 (no relation to the RAII, despite similar rating.)
400RAIV/370"


This is slightly off but , here goes beating a dead horse.
I have the Pontiac sales brochures from both 1968 and 1969 early and revised additions, I found them the other day and looked up what Pontiac had in their announcements.

The 68 stuff is correct as written before.
In 69'
The engine GTO options were

400/350 HP standard GTO
400/360 HO (Known as the HO engine)
400/366HP RAIV... Originally rated as 366hp in Pontiac Brochures early on. With Arrival of the Judge this became 370HP. And the 400/360 HP HO motor with ram air in the Judge became LATER known as the RAIII. You could buy a 400/360 HO motor non ram air in either a GTO or rated lower in a Firebird.

The Only differences in any of the D-port motors was the camshaft durations, they all had the same lift. And used all of the same engine parts. The HO motors and the RAIII as LATER known used the same camshafts, but the RAIII obviously had ram air. If you were to order a 69' Judge it came standard with a "RAM AIR 400" there is NO mention of a RAIII motor.

The previous comment about RAIV's name coming about because of 4 ways to get air into the motor was correct. Until they found the system to complicated to build. It had NOTHING to do with the chronological order of 400 ram air engines.

http://www.stockmusclecars.com/68-engines.jpg

http://www.stockmusclecars.com/69-engines.jpg Again there are NO stickers or emblems on any GTO's or Firebirds designating a RA1 / RAII / RAIII engine.
Only ram air or RAIV

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

You are incorrect about the 400HO/RAIII for the GTO. In 1969, the 400HO was only available with Ram Air, hence the Ram Air 400 or RAIII. NEVER was it available without Ram Air.

Also, to clarify, the first Ram Air engine to receive a number designation was the RAII. The first Ram Air to receive decals were the 1969s.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

442w30 .........dude, I am looking at the Original Pontiac 1969 sales album literture(printed by Pontiac), there was a 400HO without ram air. Look at the image I posted.

Its getting kind of silly now, who cares anyway, they are basically the same engine, one with ram air and one without.

If you personally want to believe there was no 400HO engine in 1969. Well thats up to you. I'm done with this silly topic.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Hey, if you can't deal with a civil discussion, that's cool. You were the one who brought it back from the dead.

I am curious why you say "it's from the brochure, so it must be true!" when they obviously got the hp wrong. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Brochures are not a good source of accuracy.

If you look at 1969 GTOs, you'll see that all the 400HO cars are Ram Air cars. Look at documented production figures and you'll find the same thing.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

69 T/8 M.T. Ram Air-III or H.O.
further done
All V/8 400 exc, Ram Air or H.O.
then
69 F/8-T/8 Ram Air-III, IV or H.O.

F=Firebird T=Tempest (GTO)
8=V8

I also remember 69 GTO's coming through our dealership without Ram Air but having H.O.

This was on the paperwork from GM, unfortunately some one took that from my possession years ago.

The above GM published catalog should do it on the matter? Also note I had already posted this catalog page in this thread, the answers were before you all along.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...arleySucks.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

"further done" should be "further down"

This is a perfect example of why NOT to have tropical drinks in the back seat of a Pinto with Belair.

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

Should do it on the matter? Not quite. Trying to gather evidence. Will be back, Watston!

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

I don't want to sound like a negative person here, but dealer brochures and parts catalog listings have no meaning to what actually happened. Look at the 1971 LS6 Chevelle engine option that is listed everywhere, but was never actually available. Also, the MN6 dual disc clutch for 69 Camaros, it was listed, but none were ever ordered or delivered. I think it will really come down to looking at original documentation and original engines to determine what the engines were called. What does PHS say and what does GM of Canada show for these engines?

Re: 1969 Trans Am Convert Clone
 

[ QUOTE ]

I also remember 69 GTO's coming through our dealership without Ram Air but having H.O.



[/ QUOTE ]

You do? Weren't you only 5 or 6 years old in 1969?