Royal info wanted
 

Through what years did Royal Pontiac tune and deliver special packages to Pontiacs? Does anyone have any pics of the span of years?

Re: Royal info wanted
 

I know 1969 was the last year. The first? Can't recall, but probably 1963 or so.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

The first 'Bobcat' package was marketed in 1962 by Royal Pontiac. The last year was 1969 when the dealership closed. George Delorean who owned 'Leader Automotive' purchased the 'Royal Racing Team' membership from Royal and that didn't last long. Milt Schornack also did ' Bobcat' packages through his own company ' Royal Automotive' for a couple of years after that.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Jim Wangers, Frank Rediker, Win Brown and Dick Jesse put the Bobcat Package together in 1961. The 1961 Bobcat Catalina had the letters on the back tail light panel spell out Bobcat using the letters from Catalina and Bonnieville. The years where 1961 till the dealership was sold in April/May 1969. A Bobcat could be anything from a tune up to a full blue printed motor and a custom paint job on the car.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Just got a Pontiac book in today that has several pages on the early Royal cars. The book is MUSCLE - PONTIACS! THE YEARS OF EXCITEMENT. Below is the first few papagraphs from the article titled WANGER'S WINGED WONDERS: A PICTORIAL OF THE ROYAL PONTIAC. There are several pages of black and white pictures of some of their race cars. There are also inserts from some of their brochures. Their first race car was a 1959. For you GTO and Judge fans, this book has about 20 pages on the GTO and Judges.
James

Royal Pontiac, Royal Oak Michigan, began the unofficial Pontiac racing outlet in the early 1960s and, from time to time, they issued racing catalouges of their own which are exceedingly rare today.
"Operation Hot Chief," was the project of Asa (Ace) Wilson, Jr., a Pontiac dealer and hot-rodder enthusiast. Wilson got into the business of producing drag strip Pontiacs shortly after he entered a car in the Daytona, Florida races.The fame of the Royal Pontiacs spread for their superior ability to engineer acceleration into a factory built car with factory built parts. The only nonfactory equipment installed on the Royal Pontiacs were tachometers, special water and oil temperature gauges and lake pipes. Wilson'e cars were extremely successful at the Detroit Dragway during the regular season in 1960. He exploited their fame to attract a great many enthusiasts to his showroom.
There was no great secret to the success of the Hot Cheif; it was simply a car that had been equipped and prepared correctly for its job. The 365 HO engine was an example. It was not a factory-installed item but, rather, factory authorised. Essentially, it was the Tri-Power with particular dealer options, including a special cam, solid lifters, heavier valve springs, larger intake valves, revised combustion chambers, chambers in the cylinder bores under the intake valves and a four-bolt main bearing caps.
Royal Pontiac was still hard at work producing racing Pontiacs up to 1963. In that year, Pontiac was reigning stock car champion. In January, 1963, however, GM ordered a ban on supplting help to racing enthusiasts and "outlaw" dealers, including Royal Pontiac. Basically, that was the end of the great racing Pontiacs. They still won the Grand Nationals but, it was only a matter of time.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Thanks
Hot Chief no 1 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

It's me or this Pontiac "Hot Chief" racing on the 1/4 with the window sticker [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Well your story is pretty close. A few corrections are in order. 1) There were two Ace's Jr. and Sr. 2) Sr. bought the dealership to give Jr. something to do. 3) Jim Wangers sold an idea to Estes and Delorean on a high perforamce dealership program. He was given the OK to find just one to start. Packer Ponttiac was very interested. But Bill Packer Jr. was leaving town for the weekend and would get back with Jim on Monday. While heaading back to his office Jim made one more stop. Royal Pontiac. Ace Jr. loved the idea and woulid not let Jim leave until a deal was set in stone.Side note Ace Sr hated it. Deal made. Bill Packer was more than a little upset. Packer after all was one of Pontiac's largest dealers with three stores. Detroit, Flint and Miami, FL. 4) The Royal racing program began with the '59 Catalina which was set up as a test bed. It had all of the latest including an Isky cam with a Pontiac part number. Unfortunately, while waiting in the pits at Detroit Dragway for the begining of the races, Bill Sidwell, against Jim Wangers' wishs took the Royal car out onto Dix Hwy with a couple of freinds and rolled the car. Bill was removed form the driving chores. The car was repaired but not until the 1960 race season. For 1960 Royal had three cars. 2 '60's, one automantic driven by Winston "Win" Brown and the stick car driven by Jim Wangers. A Pete Seaton entry racing through Royal was also in the finals. The Racing proram was Pontiac back door to the public. 5)As for all factory only parts that's not true. Inital Royal sold Isky cams with Pontiac part numbers. Royal Pontiac published three "Royal Story" parts books. 1962, 1963 and 1968. These where given out at Royals open houses. 2) Royal began marketing a Bobcat Kit in and a Bobcat dealer built car in 1961. Frank Rediker, while not an employee of the Dealership, had developed the kit and was the head mechanic on the race team. 6) the reason the cars had window stickers on the was because they were later sold as used cars. The cars however had the original engines removed and placed on a pallet and a rac motor was put into the car. At the end of the season the paint was stripped and repainted and the race motors pulled and the original motor replaced in the car. Less hassel and warranty issues. That's why it's hard to varify a Royal car. 7) Royal was hardly an outlaw dealership. They prepared almost all of the magazine Pontiac test cars so as not to embarrass the division with the cars performance. YES, the cars were more than plain jean stockers. Remember this was the back door to the public. Bottom line was to sell cars at all costs.8) A few Royal affiliates would not only hit the local tracks. They were constantly doing "market research" on the streets of Detroit. Royal was only a few blocks off Woodward Ave. Jim Wangers was always on hand with more than a few "hot" Pontiacs. 9) Royal formed a mail order business called the "Royal Racing Team" in 1962/1963. You could join for a couple of bucks and get discounts on Royal Pontiac parts. The mail order business hit it's peak in 1966 with the "Geeto Tiger" program. Over 5,000 members by the time the dealership was sold in 1969. The story goes alot deeper than the story book you just bought. Unfortunately there is a past, glorified porter, from Royal that is constantly resurfacing. I read he calims to have invented Royal and the Ram Air program. This guy wasn't even a line mechanic. Whenever Royal sent him out with another Royal Employee or even "Doc" Watson, this guy couldn't even post as fast a time. The magazines bare this out. The Royal Story keeps getting better and better. There was always a close working relationship with Royal Pontiac and the corp. while Knudson, Estes, Delorean and Wangers where there. Knudson went onto Ford and took his freinds and business partners, Mickey Thompson and Smokey Yunick with him. Delorean went on to Chevrolet and Wangers went onto Hurst than his to own Chevy Dealership in Wisconsin. Sad, very sad.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

What I posted was quoted word for word from the book I have. I am not familar with the Royal race history. I was just trying to supply what little info I had for someone that asked for Royal info. I will try to scan some pages from the book when I get a chance. All the pictures look like they pages from the brochures.
James

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Sounds like you were somewhat close to this action Bobcat...

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Sorry, I get a little carried away, too much information,LOL

Re: Royal info wanted
 

I like reading it....how dod you gather this type of info hmmm ?

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Belair62, TIme machine. Move to Detroit and relive my life. LOL

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Hey, Belair62, I had a 61 Impala Convert Red white top 283 170hp Powerglide, in high school. It was orginally my mothers car. Just before I turned 16 they gave it to me. The rear end was starting to howl. Since we owned a scrap yard we had a '63 Biscayne 2 dr sedan with a 4:11 posi. Swapped the whole pig into the '61. The day I turn 16 I had the car parked in front of the house and some drunks in a pick up slamed into the frontend. My parents saw it, I slept through it. Woke up next day walked around the backend went to open the drivers door and it was stuck. I stepped back and saw my front end was now customized.
Well, at one of my uncles yards, down from ours, they had a '61 BelAir with a good front clip. You'll never guess. The front fenders where FIBERGLASS. By the time the car came back from the body shop we had a 1960 Impala come in with a 348. I couldn't pass it up. So now I had a 348, 4:11 Covertible that got it's rearend kicked everytime I went up against one of those new 1967 Camaro SS 350. Oh, well.life is good. LOL

Re: Royal info wanted
 

[ QUOTE ]
Belair62, TIme machine. Move to Detroit and relive my life. LOL

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks but you sound older than Sixtiesmuscle !!!....Glass fenders on a 61 Belair? hmmmm

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Yes, fiberglass. Back than we didn't have cheap Chinese produced sheet metal replacement panels. The new GM parts where very expensive compaired to the value of the car. It was comon to have aftermarket fiberglass replacement fenders becuse it was cheap.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Bobcat,
How can you refer to Mr. Schornack as a "glorified porter" and that he "claims to have invented Royal"?

In Steve Stratham's book, "GTO: The Great One" Schornack claims he wasn't even HIRED by Dick Jesse at Royal until 1963. He states that he beat the Royal cars at Detroit Dragway with his 1959 Catalina, and so an impressed Jesse offered him a job at Royal.
How could Schornack NOT even be a line mechanic at Royal when he was HIRED by performance manager Dick Jesse himself and worked 6-days a week doing Bobcat conversions?

Also, Schornack explains his involvement in the testing of the RA V in Florida -- with Mr. Wangers, among others. If Shornack was such a poor racer, then why was he even IN the '69 GTO? There are photos of him in Statham's book racing the crystal turquoise '69 GTO with the RA IV -- which they later installed a Ram Air V into. Who put the RA V into the car... Mr. Wangers... or Schornack.

I am not biased in your Wangers Vs. Schornack mud-throw. I think BOTH men made their own contributions toward the legacy, but to completely denounce Schornack's involvement is wrong.
Please feel free to access miltschornack.com and click on his RA V page-- Schornack bought one of the factory RA Vs.
How'd he pull THAT deal off with no involement with PMD?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I am sure you'll have the fortitude to answer: Where did you get this information from? Were you THERE? Did you know George DeLorean? Schornack? The Wilsons? Dick Jesse?

If so, this would put you in the late 60s-early 70's age-bracket, which I don't think is the case.

Finally, I have located a guy who is providing me with photocopies of dozens of old magazine articles concerning Schornack; you have piqued my interest with your debasing attitude toward this individual.

Thanks for any help you can provide with your answer.

~GOAT72
(newbie)

Bobcat said:
<i>Unfortunately there is a past, glorified porter, from Royal that is constantly resurfacing. I read he calims to have invented Royal and the Ram Air program. This guy wasn't even a line mechanic. Whenever Royal sent him out with another Royal Employee or even "Doc" Watson, this guy couldn't even post as fast a time. The magazines bare this out. The Royal Story keeps getting better and better.</i>

Re: Royal info wanted
 

The pics I sent Jeffh here contain pics of Milt driving the RA V car and there are other pics of him around/working on the car. Can't seem to shrink them. I can e-mail them or contact Jeffh on this site. Here is pix of '69 FB he was driving for Royal also. Beautiful Orange/white car. Black & white only photos.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Same car front view.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

JLP

Nice, don't think I've ever seen that car. Love the burn off, very cool. Too bad they aren't in color, I bet that was a sharp looking car.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

In answeer to your questions. It was pretty hard for Dick to hire anyone. He was not the GM. McQueen was. Nor was Dick the new car manager. Dick Was the High performance salesman. Chuck Broomfield was the only mechinic initially doing the Bobcat conversions. Than later came Dave and Sid Warren. I know you have no idea how small Royal was in comparison to todays dealerships. YES I DID KNOW AND DO KNOW THESE gentleman.es I was around the dealership. Since you like books, I'm sure you most own Jim Wangers Book "Glory Days." Turn to the Introduction chapter and read the introdution paragraph. Find my name? Next time you watch Speed Channel's "MuscleCars" Hurst segment you'll find my name in the credits. If you get the History Channel segment "History of the Automobile, The Firebird" My family is in it and I am in the credits. I'm sure you don't however get the BBC's Jeremy Clarkston's show I'm in his film and credits for the "Deroit's Auto Industry." SO,NO MY KNOWLEDGE IS NOT BASED ON SOME FANTISY BOOK YOU READ. The books you read did not interview Dick Jesse, he's been dead a good 20 years. Ace Jr. since about 1989 Ace Sr. about 10 years. Yes, I do also Know Mac McKellar, Jack "Doc" Watson, John Sawruk and JIm Mattison to name a few who you may have heard of. Mine is not opion but based on first hand knowledge. You can read more of my resume on other posting.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Maybe you would have to had Milt steal an engine from you or one of your friends over the years, to understand. Look up a surgeon in FL, Bobby Gingle, or in Detroit and man who owns a Steel processing plant, James Gannes. These two would love to tell you about Milt.
Installing and removal of an engine at the drag strip hardly constitutes engineering involvement. Particulary when you spin a bearing after 5 runs and are told NOT to open it up. Just ship it back to PMD untouched.
As for Milt's resent Brown Ram Air V. That is another in a long line of Milts dellusions. Jim Wangers bought that brown car just after leaving the ad agency in April 1969. It was a Ram Air IV car. When JIm was ready to sell it he sold to one of Milts friends in Ohio. Milt convinced that gentleman to install a ram air V into the car. The car has a "Royal Automotive" painted on the lower front fender. Not Royal Pontiac. Royal Pontiac had been sold and Milt was fired from Leader Automotive, George Delorean. (Yes I know him). The gentleman had the car till a few years ago. I'm not sure if he took ill or past away, was the reason for the sale. This was not a PMD mule. This was engine swap was done by Brain Ballish at Milt's Royal Automotive. May be you should contact Brian he can tell you how the IRS came after him because MILT never paid his withholding and other taxes, along with bounced pay checks.
You have got to be kidding. Your going to read magazines as your source of info and rely on Milt's site? LOL, Why don't you just read the "STAR" or "ENQUIRE" for your daily news.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

You guys are too much. Good by and have a nice fantacy life.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Bobcat attempted to spell:
""SO,NO MY KNOWLEDGE IS NOT BASED ON SOME FANTISY BOOK YOU READ. The books you read did not interview Dick Jesse, he's been dead a good 20 years. Ace Jr. since about 1989 Ace Sr. about 10 years. Yes, I do also Know Mac McKellar, Jack "Doc" Watson, John Sawruk and JIm Mattison to name a few who you may have heard of. Mine is not opion but based on first hand knowledge.">>

*********** So Steve Statham wrote a "fantasy book" and because you're a chiropractor this makes YOU the expert that we all should listen to? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Oh, and Tom DeMauro at HPP... he's lying too?
Is his book also a "fantasy"?

Question: Where you ever removed (a.k.a. booted) from a local Pontiac club that you were involved in? Do you hold any animosity toward its members? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
Just checkin' so we all know where you're coming from!
Thanks!
G72

Re: Royal info wanted
 

[ QUOTE ]

Installing and removal of an engine at the drag strip hardly constitutes engineering involvement. Particulary when you spin a bearing after 5 runs and are told NOT to open it up. Just ship it back to PMD untouched.
You have got to be kidding. Your going to read magazines as your source of info and rely on Milt's site? LOL, Why don't you just read the "STAR" or "ENQUIRE" for your daily news.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, "Bobcat" I'm going to listen to YOU, an obviously angry (about something) man who thinks that spouting negative information concerning a man's financial problems constitutes and validates changing the course of REAL history.
Actually, I'd rather read books by Stratham, Zazarine, DeMauro and yes, even Jim Wangers, (read it twice) before listening to you.

As far as the brown Ram AIr V car is concerned: if it was in fact rebuilt as a Ram Air V, then WHY is it one of Milt's "delusions"? NOBODY could get a factory RAV, so Milt found the car and purchased it. He doesn't claim it was a "factory" RAV.

If Milt couldn't race a car, then why was he in Florida, testing the RA V? And if Milt removed a RA-V from that Florida car and installed another one which was shipped FROM PONTIAC overnight after the first one blew, then why would you say he wasn't involved in any aspect of "engineering"? It's obvious that Pontiac engineers trusted Milt enough to ship him a 2nd RAV and let him install it.
And wow... I've NEVER heard of anyone spinning a bearing after 5 runs at a dragstrip! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]
I guess Milt's the only guy who's ever done THAT! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Finally, If you have a Bobcat '68 Firebird, I'd say the odds are pur-rrrrrty decent that ol' Milt layed hands on your engine at some point. Or perhaps he even BUILT the whole thing! I mean, he DID work on the performance vehicles at Royal.

And if he DIDN'T, then Steve Stratham, Thomas DeMauro and the rest of 'em are all liars and you, Bobcat, are the new Royal Bobcat Minister of Information.

One more thing: I have met Mr. DeMauro and Milt Schornack. I had dinner with them. Milt has SEVERAL scrapbooks full of photos from his days at Royal. It's funny how a guy who "was not employed there as a mechanic" has so many stories and photos to back him up.

I think it's YOU, not us, who is living in a fantasy world, my friend.

~GOAT72

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Bobcat assaulted the English language with:
"In answeer to your questions. It was pretty hard for Dick to hire anyone. He was not the GM. McQueen was. Nor was
Dick the new car manager. Dick Was the High performance salesman. Chuck Broomfield was the only mechinic initially doing the Bobcat conversions. Than later came Dave and Sid Warren. I know you have no idea how small Royal was in comparison to todays dealerships."

Bobcat,
I'm sure you were there, but you HAD to have been just a kid. (??)
Next, Dick Jesse was the performance salesman, yes, but he was INUNDATED with performance sales (over 5,000 Royal Bobcat club members when it was all said n' done)so he had to hire another mechanic to handle the load.

I quote:
""To beat one of their cars (Royal) was a high-profile victory indeed. After seeing Schornack in action, Dick Jesse, the performance salesman at Royal Pontiac, invited Milt to come and discuss job opportunities"
Page 80-81 GTO: The Great One, Steve Stratham.

Finally, in my 2+ hours of conversation with Milt, he never once had a negative word to say about Jim Wangers or anybody else. The guy is about 72 rr 73 years old now and he just likes to tell stories about his days at Royal. For you to trash the guy is absurd and inherently cruel. I'm certain you have angered folks in your past -- I certainly have. But why do you display such hatred for this guy?
It's not right to trash him on these boards and I am glad I stumbled in to defend him.

I will not help you create a Wangers v. Schornack agenda. As I said, BOTH men made tremendous contributions to the GTO legend.
I have nothing but respect for both of them.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]~GOAT72

Re: Royal info wanted
 

GOAT72

You need to identify yourself.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

[ QUOTE ]
GOAT72

You need to identify yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]


No offense, but no... I don't, Steve.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Let me just say that I am a writer and have done considerable research on Royal, PMD (from 1962 through 1973) and the Woodward Ave subsculture that evolved from what I like to call the "factory muscle car wars."
My screenplay is currently at The William Morris Agency. (heard o' them??)

I know that everything that "Mr. Bobcat" is saying is biased toward one individual's beliefs, but out of complete respect for that individual, I refuse to lower myself to Bobcat's level.

The classic car hobby is supposed to be "fun". I have only met wonderful people who would do anything to help his/her fellow hobbyist. There is no room in this hobby, or on this forum, for someone who choses to smear others and/or air their personal and financial shortcomings in public. It's not fair.
I am glad I joined the Yenko.net boards in time to defend a nice older gentleman like Milt, who takes great joy in helping others with free advice and tons of great memories from the good ol' days!

Thanks for reading my posts!
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif[/img]
~GOAT72

Re: Royal info wanted
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since you like books, I'm sure you most own Jim Wangers Book "Glory Days." Turn to the Introduction chapter and read the introdution paragraph. Find my name?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric,
There is a quote: "My friend Eric Schiffer is driving my 1969 GTO Judge. The Michigan license plates read: Wangers."

So you were:
a) driving Jim's car
or
b) you purchased Jim's car.
Congratulations... you are now a Royal Pontiac expert!

Gimme a break... based upon your photo, you were probably approximately 8-14 years old when Royal was in its heyday.
There's no way you can be over 50. So how could you have "been there"?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
~GOAT72

Re: Royal info wanted
 

If you expect me to listen to anything you have to say, you have to identify yourself. I don't care if you do or not, but your opinions are meaninless without.

A few things come to mind about a person wanting to talk smack from behind a curtain.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

I agree with Goat72 , You cannot bad mouth someone just because of what someone has said, at one time, read the Pontiac Bible ( commonly known as ) Pontiac Musclecar Performand 1965-79 gto/firebird/superduty/ram air by Pete mcCarthy and John Angeles Its awesome and has most if not all the information other than from themselves or guys who worked and owned Royal Bobcat!! My 2 cents!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

The contrabutions of Milt Schornack to Royal Pontiac are undeniable. Milt was a central figure in preparing,scheduling,managing and driving the famous 'Royal Bobcat' cars for magazine features along with drag strip engineering tests. His name and photos of him were a constant sight in the majority of these magazine tests from that era.Milt was also the driver of the C/S 1966 GTO driven in competion for Royal in 1966.
It is interesting to note that in most reference to Royal Pontiac in general non road test text that Milt was quoted or referenced for his knowledge to Pontiac cars. Milt was the contact person in the 'Royal Racing Team' ad's that appeared in that time frame. Milt also appeared in the November 1968 Car Craft magazine 'All Star Drag Racing Team' selections. He is shown in that photo with the likes of Don Garlits, Bill Jenkins,George Hurst,Dick Landy amongst others. Milt was accepting the 'Stock Sponser' award for Royal Pontiac. That was quite some company to be associated in photo with. I don't believe a 'glorified porter' would have been sent to accept such a prestigous honor for Royal.
I know Milt personally along with Jim Wangers.I consider them both good friends. I don't want to get in to a Schornack/Wangers contriversy on who did what. I can say that I have "NEVER" heard Milt say he was the originator or designer of the 'Royal Bobcat' package. He always acknowledges that his employment started after the fun began.I also have never heard him diminish any others role in Royal or try to grab more attention to what his role was.
Milt has never tried to make an 'illusion' on his brown Ram Air V GTO. He has always stated it was converted by the first owner by 'Royal Automotive' -not- 'Royal Pontiac'.If you look at the photos on Milt's website he shows a photo of the front fender highlighting 'Royal Automotive'.This car does, I believe carry significant historical importance. It was I believe sold through Royal Pontiac and it was converted early in its life to Ram Air V.
Milt has had problems in the past. Who hasn't? Those issues Milt has had to deal with privatly.
I do find it terrible that such an ignorant person would spew their dislike about someone in such a away. It is truely a classless , angry individual that would slander a mans name with out actually being involved in Royal Pontiac during the glory days and to bring third party accusations from the past to an internet public forum.
We are extremly lucky as enthusiasts to have both Milt Schornack -and- Jim Wangers with us today to be able to share there accounts of this fabulous time in Pontiac history.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Well said Bob.

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Just had to check the board for some comic relief. You guys didn't fail me. You truly want to rewrite history though with your blind faith.
Hey, thanks for the complement. But, Yep, I am older 50. No, Milt is not in his '70's but I'm sure he appreciates the compliment too.
Sorry, But you'll have to look into things much closer. In all of those "OLD" magazines with Royal Photos and you'll see it's Frank Redicker,Winston "Win" Brown, Clarence Walters, Chuck Broomfield, Sid or Dave Warren doing the heavy work. Pete Seaton got his start hanging around Royal, as did Jack "Doc" Watson.
I wonder if "Royal" ever won a race with everyone beating them.
Undeniable contributions? Milt didn't start "looking on" at a Sun Distributor machine, a heads cc'd chamber, or an open engine compartment while at Royal until the 1965 magazines. I read one books which you reference that Milt said he should have patented the ram air system he worked on in 1965.
Too, bad that the '61-'62 Chevy's where already using it on their NASCAR racers. Z-11 program and 409's
I don't know how it could be possible for Milt to do all you think he did. For example trailer and drive the 1966 "Royal" race car. Trailer and drive and the four "Geeto Tigers," be the "Mystery Tiger" at all of the Geeto Tiger events,(there would be two teams at two different tracks at the same time), work on customer cars, answer all of those "Royal Bobcat" questions, take out all of those magazine test cars,etc, etc. Heck of a guy. LOL
In the back of the many 1965-1966 car magazines where "ACE Wilson Royal Pontiac/ Royal Racing Team" ads. with a contact person of, John Martin. Later no name because the duties where shared with Dennis Frazho and later Milt.
You should go back to "SPEED AND CUSTOM" magzine in August, 1963 and you still only see Dick Jesse, Jim Wangers and Frank Rediker.
I guess you haven't come across the History Channel" History of The Firebird" With me in the credits. Or, Speed Channel "American Muscle Car, Hurst Corp" with me in the credits
As for my '68 Firebird Brian Ballish is the one who came up with the RA IV 455 combo in the car. Diamond/Elkins did the head work. Say. why don't you find "Popular Hot Rodding" March 1971 and tell us who's pictured putting the engine in my car. Frankie Albrick did the street racing with this car. He too is only in his early 50's.
Boy, with your theory, the dealership service department must have just about closed down completely with Milt being on the road so much. LOL
Now the factory had two (2) Ram Air V engines in Florida. LOL Milt must have trailered the white with gold "Bobcat" hood striped '69 GP, '69 Judge, '69 Trans Am and the '69 GTO Crystal Turquse with the white striped "Bobcat" down all by himself. Changed the RA IV out for TWO (2) not 0ne (1) but TWO (2) Ram Air V engines. WOW!
Go back and rad some more articles. Jim has it in his book. Might be easier for you to find.
Than afterwards call Brian and than ask Jim Wangers for more confirmation on whom did what. Brian is in his early 50's too.
As for the "Car Craft Allstar Team" Brian would love to talk to you about that too. That became the only jacket Milt ever wore for years.
Thom DeMauro. He definately didn't know how to spell Royal until resent years. Thom will tell you he doesn't have time for extensive research. That he has to rely on the few people he comes in contact with. He has to get out a magazine for entertainment.
It's amazing the only people that can profit from your refusal to beleive reality is the one's you are blindly defending.The ones who have motive to future profits. LOL
Kicked out of local GTO club. That's even funnier. Keep up the story book. The chapters are getting better.
Hey, when you get time check the State of Michigan Corporation registry and trade marks and federal trade marks for Royal Bobcat/Ace Wilson's Royal Racing Team and GeetoTiger. Let me know who's name is on it and for how long.
As long as you have Jim's book, look on page 143, Dennis Frazho, John Politzer and John Kosmala would all be in their 50's too. LOL
Milt's current brown '69 GTO was owned first by Jim Wangers. (First Owner?) Jim only had a Ram Air IV in that car. Yes, Milt's Royal Automotive did do the Ram Air V converstion, but for the second owner. Now it has a Ram Air VI designation on the hood. Please explain. LOL
Unfortunately those who you appear to idealize have made a career of taking advantage from your thrust for more. Really, knowlege is good, blind faith is just that.
Thank you very much for todays entertainment. I've got to send this to Jim and some others.LOL

Re: Royal info wanted
 

If we knew everything about our heroes, there might not be too many. Many didn't even ask to be put on the pedestals. In the mean time there are countless numbers of unsung heroes that go unnoticed. Happy New Year. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Bobcat,
Rather than diving into your pig-stye of misinformation (and horrific spelling), I will simply respond to a few of your ridiculous claims and display your lack of credibility to this forum.

[ QUOTE ]
But, Yep, I am older 50. No, Milt is not in his '70's but I'm sure he appreciates the compliment too.

[/ QUOTE ]

********Bobcat, I am happy that you "am older 50." Congrats!
Milt Schornack is in his early 70's. How do I know this?
I ASKED HIM.
So you are wrong about Milt's age. Not a big deal, but just another example of your inability to focus in reality.
************
[ QUOTE ]
<<I wonder if "Royal" ever won a race with everyone beating them.
Undeniable contributions? Milt didn't start "looking on" at a Sun Distributor machine, a heads cc'd chamber, or an open engine compartment while at Royal until the 1965 magazines.

[/ QUOTE ]

****************
This makes sense, since Milt didn't start at Royal until October of 1963. With the racing season all but over, Milt would not become involved until 1964. If it took him a WHOLE YEAR to get into a magazine, I envy him!

[ QUOTE ]
I read one books which you reference that Milt said he should have patented the ram air system he worked on in 1965.
Too, bad that the '61-'62 Chevy's where already using it on their NASCAR racers. Z-11 program and 409's

[/ QUOTE ]


**********Milt's Ram Air device was a self-admitted, "very rough prototype," which Pontiac engineers reworked. If others were working a Ram Air set-up, that's fine, because NO ONE HAD PATENTED IT at that point, so Milt could have applied for the patent. Period.
Secondly, if Chevy had it on NASCAR cars, then it was NOT a street application. Milt was trying to develop a ram air device for Royal Pontiac -- not NASCAR.

[ QUOTE ]
In the back of the many 1965-1966 car magazines where "ACE Wilson Royal Pontiac/ Royal Racing Team" ads. with a contact person of, John Martin. Later no name because the duties where shared with Dennis Frazho and later Milt.
You should go back to "SPEED AND CUSTOM" magzine in August, 1963 and you still only see Dick Jesse, Jim Wangers and Frank Rediker.

[/ QUOTE ]

**********Again, Milt started in Oct. '63, so why would he be in your "magzine" in August of that year?
You grasp... and you fail, Eric.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you haven't come across the History Channel" History of The Firebird" With me in the credits. Or, Speed Channel "American Muscle Car, Hurst Corp" with me in the credits.

[/ QUOTE ]

********* .....and those credits were forrrrrrr......?
Maybe because you OWN an older car.. or perhaps some historic paraphernalia?
They certainly can't be because of your distorted views, which are based out of personal hatred for a fellow human being.

[ QUOTE ]
Now the factory had two (2) Ram Air V engines in Florida. LOL [ QUOTE ]


********* Sorry, Eric, the books say he swapped One (1) out. period.
I don't know where you got the notion of 2.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the "Car Craft Allstar Team" Brian would love to talk to you about that too. That became the only jacket Milt ever wore for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

********* ah........ and there's something wrong with that?


[ QUOTE ]
Thom DeMauro. He definately didn't know how to spell Royal until resent years.

[/ QUOTE ]

********
And you can't spell "Tom."
Nor can you spell "definitely" or "recent" for that matter...

[ QUOTE ]
Thom will tell you he doesn't have time for extensive research. That he has to rely on the few people he comes in contact with. He has to get out a magazine for entertainment.

[/ QUOTE ]

********It is obvious you are pulling stuff directly from your BACK SIDE.
Tom DeMauro DOES have time to research things, and he'd better, because he runs a magazine! He ALSO wrote one of those "book things", Eric. It was about the GTO. He had to do extensive research in order to write this "book thing."

If you begin to cite Tom DeMauro as one of your "buddies" he'll probably gag up a lung when he hears of it.



[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing the only people that can profit from your refusal to beleive reality is the one's you are blindly defending.The ones who have motive to future profits. LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

********Wait a second. Is Jim Wangers profiting?
Are you blindly defending him? To the point of slanderous and libelous assaults on another person?

Again, we ALL enjoy, appreciate and RESPECT Mr. Wangers and Mr. Schornack for their contributions. For you to completely dispell one's very existence is ignorant.

[ QUOTE ]
Kicked out of local GTO club. That's even funnier. Keep up the story book. The chapters are getting better.

[/ QUOTE ]
***** I have it from not one, not two, but FOUR different sources that you were voted out of the Woodward GTO Tiger organization.

From these sources I also know that you have a history of being abrasive with your peers -- people who are simply trying to enjoy the hobby.

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately those who you appear to idealize have made a career of taking advantage from your thrust for more. Really, knowlege is good, blind faith is just that.
Thank you very much for todays entertainment. I've got to send this to Jim and some others.LOL


[/ QUOTE ]

**********Eric, for some reason you fail to garner ANY information from books, magazines and newspaper articles. You shun everything that is accepted in your own display of blind faith.
Everything you say is based on hearsay. You claim it is "first hand" but you were obviously NOT there. Even if you're in your 50's, you would have been only 10 years old when Royal was in its glory.
You heard this information from ONE SOURCE-- this is NOT "first hand". Is is second-hand or "word-of-mouth" at best.

How can SO MANY PEOPLE be wrong, and only YOU are right?

And what do you hope to accomplish with your insulting words and revisionist history?

There will always be room for more stories from the guys who were there in the 1960s. We all love to hear them speak and read their words.
Why don't you stop your hate campaign and just enjoy the hobby?

Just because you are friends with Mr. Wangers does not make you the authoritative voice of Royal Bobcat history. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Happy New Year, Bobcat.
Peace.
~G72

Re: Royal info wanted
 

Keith. truer words were never spoken. Have a Good New Year. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

GOAT72, may I suggest some anger managment classes for your condition. Your working yourself up, much to much. Take a deep breath. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Re: Royal info wanted
 

This is a long story [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
probably better with pics. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

For my Royal CD. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]