Harrell Camaro
 

I got ahold of the original owner of my Camaro and he had pictures of it from 1973! I did my best to take pictures of them with my camera. They came out OK considering the pictures were matte finish. This is an orignal Harrell car. The flares and shaved emblems were done by the original owner. The car still has the same paint as in the photos, but it is faded and worn.
http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...harrell70s.JPGhttp://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...arrell70s2.JPGhttp://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...arrell70s4.JPG


Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Jason,
Neat car. Old pictures like that are priceless! They speak volumes and remind us of how these cars really were. Thanks for the cool post.

Andrew

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Jason,

What a great gift from the original owner! Most only have dreams about what their car looked like 30 years ago. Do you care to share more about your fantastic find? Was the original owner helpful? BTW, you have mail!

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Is it a COPO 427 Harrell or a 396/427 SS Harrell converted car? My guess is a COPO with the ZL/2 hood. Auto or stick. We are working on both types. The COPO is a auto on the tree, the SS a 4 speed...BKH

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

The car is a converted SS 396 car. It is a auto with console. I don't think the hood on the car is original because the owner told me stories of the original hood flying off more than once. Right now it has a stinger hood on it. Once it gets here I will be able to tell you more about it.


Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

The car has arrived! I can't find my Chevrolet by the numbers book though. I thought some of you guys may be able to melp me with a few numbers.
It is an O1B car.
Alt- 1100690
Master Cyl- 5468309
Rearend- BT Code

Any help would be greatly appreciated,


Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Here are a few pictures as it looks now. I took these pictures as soon as I got the car home. Its amazing what over 20 years of storage will do. The interior is like brand new. The paint is faded and peeling,but there is no rust. It even still has the 4 tube exhaust system. I thought I would just give an update.

<center><A href="http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/viewimage.x/00000000/bronc066/engine1.JPG">http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...ds/engine1.JPG<font size=1>
Click image to view larger version</font></A></center>

<center><A href="http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/viewimage.x/00000000/bronc066/interior1.JPG">http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi.../interior1.JPG<font size=1>
Click image to view larger version</font></A></center>

<center><A href="http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/viewimage.x/00000000/bronc066/rear1.JPG">http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...mids/rear1.JPG<font size=1>
Click image to view larger version</font></A></center>

<center><A href="http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/viewimage.x/00000000/bronc066/trimtag1.JPG">http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...s/trimtag1.JPG<font size=1>
Click image to view larger version</font></A></center>

<center><A href="http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/viewimage.x/00000000/bronc066/trunk1.JPG">http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...ids/trunk1.JPG<font size=1>
Click image to view larger version</font></A></center>


<CENTER>





[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-06-2001 at 03:28 AM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

The car you have is very close to the SS427 Harrell Camaro we are working on. The color and build date are the same. I canot read the body number clearly, our reads 226003. Some things from a quick glance that are different. No console, I have yet to see a Harrell Camaro with one. Are you sure its factory. The tach on all the ones I have seen have been on the dash top and were Sun units. I have never seen that older SW version mounted at the roof line. The gauges have been under dash not in the dash. The early cars used Harrell plaques on the dash, header, and deck lid. Are yours still there. From the picture the upper alternator bracket is incorrect as is the alternator. The cars used 837, 37amp units. The master cylinder and rear code are the same as ours. Door trim is from a 68. Overall it looks much the same...BKH

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

The "door trim" is painted on. It is an original console car. I have yet to get the paperwork. What is the alternator for? The full rear code is BT 0113G2 E. The housing date A89. The original owner told me that Harrell installed a steel ZL-1(L-88) because they were having trouble with the aluminum ones cracking. I see on Harrell's ads that you could get a steel head L-88. It looks like the car still has its original heads. This confuses me since the original heads are closed chamber. As far as I know all L-88's used open chamber heads. The engine has casting 3935439 and the date is D 11 8. The number on the front is CE950807. The heads are dated L 4 8 and L 12 8. The original owner said he could not remember if he put the gauges in the car or they came that way. He had two similar cars at the same time and he had trouble remembering what he did to which. I am going to start looking for a build sheet soon, even though I have heard they are scarce in 69. The number on the tag is 209863. The VIN is 12437N580930
The Harrell emblems are long gone. All emblems were shaved from the car long ago as seen in the early 70's pics above.

Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Jason:

The "439" block was used in late '68 [Passenger = 427 (390hp/2-bolt, 425hp/4-bolt Corvette = 427 (390/2-bolt, 400hp/4-bolt, 430hp/4-bolt, 435hp/4-bolt)] until early '69 [Passenger = 427 (335hp/2-bolt, 390hp/2-bolt, 425hp/2-bolt) Corvette = 427 (390hp/2-bolt, 400hp/4-bolt, 430hp/4-bolt, 435hp/4-bolt)].

As for the heads, from '67-'68 the L-88s did in fact use a closed chamber aluminum head, along with the '68-'69 L-89 cars. The L-88/ZL-1 switched to an open chamber aluminum head in '69.

Looking at your pictures, I noticed the heads were painted. Are they aluminum heads or iron?

[Edited by Chevy454 (12-06-2001 at 03:52 PM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

The heads are iron. As I understand Harrell would use the steel heads off the car on the L-88 short block.



Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Sooo...which heads are on it? 840s?

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Don't know yet. I haven't pulled the covers. I looked at the dates through the breather holes.


Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I bet there 840's...BKH

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I checked the heads. There are in fact 840's.
What is the BT code rear? Did any X66 COPO cars come with an SS emblem on the steering wheel. I checked the trans code today. It has a CX code on the tag. As far as I can tell this code was only used on L72 and ZL1 cars. Any input? I also want to thank everybody for all the help!


Thanks,


Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-06-2001 at 11:19 PM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

According to the ByTheNumbers and MacNeish's
'69 Z/SS fact book, BT rearend is 3.55 POSI. Assembled Jan 13th, '69 in a carrier cast January 8th, '69. Produced at Detroit Gear and Axle, 2nd shift.

Again, re MacNeish's book, the CX trans was behind all solid lifter big block Camaros that year, be they L78 396's or L72 427's, or ZL1's, I suppose. "This trans utilized a different valve body, extra clutches, and a higher shift point than the "CE" Turbo 400"

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Thanks for the info on the codes. I was going on the info from the CRG site.

BKH,

What type fuel pumps do your cars have? This one has a Stewart Warner unit behind the passenger wheelwell.



Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

It has the stock AC mechanical unit. No evidence of a fuel pump ever in the trunk. Does this car have the liquid tire chain option? ..BKH

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Fred Gibb sold alot of CE replacement motors, especially at the race track. I have a reliable source who worked for Fred Gibb, he mentioned selling lots of motors, shipped on pallets, stacked to the ceiling in the shop. They ordered them 50 at a time. Also lots of transmissions, anyone ever hear of a CE M22 or M21?

I can only reasonably theorize that Dick may have ordered some of his blocks, especially in '68-'69, from Fred. They were at the track together quite a bit in the 68-71 era.

Delivery of motors and tranny's to customers at the track was an everyday occurrance, per my source.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

BKH,


Are there any numbers I can check to see if the alternator bracket is correct or not? I thought the bracket as well as the water pump and crank pulleys were incorrect because they were chrome. When I checked further the water pump pulley is the original, it has just been chromed(has 3947824BV stamped on it). Is there another reason you thought it might not be original?


Thanks,

Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

It'hard to tell, but a 69 upper bracket does not have an adjustment hole...BKH

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Do Norwood cars usually have a build sheet? I have looked under all of the seats, under the carpet, and behind the seats. I have not pulled the door panels. I also haven't taken the gas tank out because I believe if there was one there it would have been taken out when the tank was modified. The car keeps amazing me though. The floorboards are absolutely perfect and the carpet still has the original date tag on it. Is it worth taking the door panels off to look for a build sheet? Any other places?


Thanks,


Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Jason,
I have yet to find a build sheet from a 1969 Norwood Camaro and let's say that I have looked for at least a few.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I know of at least 1 Norwood car with the broadcast sheet and it's an original JL8 car. He also has the window sticker. That is pretty rare to find the sheet on a Norwood car though.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

That's what I figured. Does anyone have an L-88 service replacement carb they would want to part with? The one off this car had been stolen before I got it.



Jason

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I have three broadcast sheets on my old 69 Pace Car. They are the same except one has an error on the key codes. The dealer owned this car for 12 years and kept everything.
I do not have the ability to post these but I can FAX to anyone that would like to see them. I still have the original paperwork on this low mile car as it burnt up in a severe fire. I always wonder if that car is back on the road.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Would it be better to restore this car to the way it came new from Harrell or to the condition it was in the pictures I got from the original owner? I haven't decided whether I'm going to restore it or sell it yet. Just curious to get opinions. Also does anybody know if Harrell used the L78 carb on an L-88 conversion?


Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-27-2001 at 03:09 AM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Jason, you would be better off to leave it as it is and show it that way. Get the car mechanically sound and put the slots back on it and give it a good cleaning. It will draw more attention this way since you have photos from when it was originally modified. I have found that when a car is in this condition and still running, people seem to draw to it more. They like what has not been messed with and restored. This car has character and loads of it!

I have a couple of old hot rod Camaros pushed off to the side that are covered in dust and have faded paint, big tires and wheels and other period correct hot rod parts on them, basically like yours. Those cars get more attention than the frame off cars I have sitting 20ft away that I am working on. Show it that way for a year and then restore it back to the way the pictures show it: fender flares, slot wheels, big tires, high ride height, and Monza exhaust. It is one bad hot rod............RatPack.............

Whitetop don't you agree?

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I agree with Ratpack. I was at a Street Rod Nationals show last year and there was a original '50's flathead powered 1932 Ford Roadster that was in storage since the late '50's. The paint was cracked/dull, interior was coming apart and the chrome was dull and hazy. The car was not as nearly as perfect as cars built today. The welds were not great, detail was just not there. This was how most of the cars were built back then. However that being said, the car had a huge crowd around it all day. There were other '50's style hot rods(recently built cars to look like they were from the era) there but were not getting as much attention as this one. You saw a look on peoples faces when they saw the car you do not see often. People like to see something that is original as it was. I think some "patina" adds character as long as it is not excessive.
I would clean up the Camaro and put the wide slots/tires back on it. Of course I'm biased towards Day 2 cars but I have to say what I saw with the '32.
Dave

[Edited by whitetop (12-27-2001 at 10:21 AM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Hey 68TopStock, this is just a reply to your 12/8 posting about CE trannys. I think CE was reserved for counter engines,or otherwise called "crate engine". I myself have never seen it stamped on a tranny case, I just haven't been able to check them all yet! The following is just my observations, open to criticism, or enlightenment.
Any transmission case I have seen with CC, or CT stamped on it followed by a number, would be a replacement (counter) bare case, or replacement complete assembly. The single digit following CC or CT, would be the year. Examples; CC9,or CT0 would be'69 and '70 respectively. It usually has a five digit serial number near it also.
If the case also has an assembly date, then it was a complete tranny when sold over the counter. For example; CT9 P9B21C. If just CC9, it should have no assembly date, which means it was a bare case only.


[Edited by Warren Malkin (12-27-2001 at 10:50 AM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I wouldn't worry too much about the paint unless bare metal is showing. Looks like only the horizontal surfaces need touching up. Buff the sides of the car and then paint the horizontal surfaces and "blend" them in with the sides. Don't worry about perfection as it will look fine with the sides of the car being shined up a little..................RatPack.................

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Can't say I have ever heard of "CE" as Chevrolet Engineering, but I don't claim to know everything! Does anyone have any sources at GM that can identify the prefix "CC", "CE", or "CT" on driveline parts?

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Like that episode of PBS antiques Road show where the owner cleaned the "Patina" off of here Tiffany style lamp.She depreciated it 50-60%.
Our society has a bad habit of cleaning everthing up real good.Only now there are very few survivors left to see how they originally came!

In regards to "CE" service replacements codes.
This from the 1969 Chevrolet Dealer Service information Bulletin 69-I-1.They produced one of these pamphlets each year.

"Service replacement Engines and Trans will be Identified by the first letter for the GM division that produced it".
C-Chevrolet
L-Oldsmobile
K-Cadillac
B-Buick
P-Pontiac

The second letter will indicate the type of unit,E=engine,T=Transmission.

The following number will designate the model year.

The last 5 digits to specify the sequence number from that particular plant.

Turbo-Hydramatic transmissions will be numbered with the letter "H",regardless of the GM division using the transmission.

*This numbering system applies to ALL Engine assemblies,partial engines,fitted cylinders,cylinder cases,Transmission assemblies and thier cases.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

mr70, great info you supplied there! Didn't realize the "C" was for Chevrolet. Always glad to be better informed.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Thanks for the info.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Warren,
I had always thaught that the "CE" designation represented Chevrolet Engineering, although Counter Engine or Crate Engine makes more sense.

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I totally agree. If I decide to sell the car it will be sold unrestored. The car would not need as much attention in the restoration as most, since it is in good condition already. Paint is really its only downfall.



Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-27-2001 at 12:41 PM).]

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Warren/mr70,

Thanks for the info on the replacement engines and trannies. This is real hard to find data. https://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

Are those California black plates in the 1973 photos?? If so, this car was registered in CA in 1969. Begining in 1970 CA went to blue plates...

Re: Harrell Camaro
 

I was under the impression that 69 was a transition year from black to blue plates. Some 69's I though got blue plates if the local DMV was finally out of 63 Black plates and it was late in the year..The more populated areas got the blue plates first.An old friend told me this who went to Cal. regularly to bring back rust free(no charge for it) cars ! Most 69 cars with black plates I have seen started with letters very near the end of the alphabet.i.e. v thru z etc. Anyone from Cal can shed more precise info on this ? I like black plate cars.