Interesting spin on old cars
 

What are your thoughts about this?



https://www.facebook.com/share/v/17Y...ibextid=wwXIfr

I have been saying what he said for 25 years I could see this coming down the road with the graying of the people at the cruise nights and car shows that is why i sold my cars years ago I am 75 years old.

Can you give a summary for those not on Facebook?

K

I saw that back in September when he posted it. I'm not a giant Joe Zolper fan as he has a pretty negative outlook on most car stuff and it seems like he thinks it's his way or the highway. Meh. I think the car world is like everything in life, it changes over time as society and interests change. Nothing lasts forever.
Here's a direct link to the video:
http://0260.tv/joezolper

The age group of people interested in muscle cars is graying and dying the younger generations don't have any interest or the money to buy them

I have no idea why this surprises people. The car hobby has always been generational. Baby Boomers were the largest generation of modern times and collected old muscle in big numbers. Successive generations are much smaller, less involved with things automotive. Those that are collect what they drove in their youth-Trans Ams, Acura Integras, Toyota Supras, Nissans. And trucks.

The law of supply and demand is irrefutable. Father Time always wins.

I'm also into Model T's, so I have watched a bit of what the sunsetting of the hobby looks like. People have been predicting the death of the Model T hobby since the 70s. I'd say it peaked between 2000 and 2010. With some exceptions, the decline in value has really just been inflationary. A car worth $10k 20 years ago is still worth $10k today. They really haven't dropped in price, just haven't kept up with the decline of the dollar.

The big problem in recent years has been parts availability. The T hobby was well supported by many boutique shops making aftermarket parts run by people in the hobby, not corporate entities producing parts in China. This was great for a long time, until they started aging out of being able to produce the parts, and unable to sell the business because everyone else in the business was at an age they wanted to reduce their workload, not add to it.

Musclecars are different, though. They can be driven with modern traffic, even in completely stock form. They'll never be as inconvenient to use as earlier cars. A bone-stock Chevelle could be daily-driven comfortably, and actually handle reasonably well with just tires/sway bars/steering box upgrades. People using the earlier cars as an example of declining interest are forgetting how badly most of the cars up into the 50s drive.

Another factor is dillution of the hobby... An enthusiast today has 120+ years of cars to choose from.

There's a million ways this can go, but I don't think the hobby will crash or die any time soon. Becoming more affordable for the next generations isn't a bad thing.

He is 100% right in most respects(in my opinion). Most people my generation(millennial) don’t care about old cars. They want cool stuff from the 80’s and 90’s, if they’re interested in cars beyond being appliances. They respect the muscle car stuff, but aren’t willing to spend the money on stuff to get heavily involved. Mainly because in the last 20 years prices on white trash fun muscle car stuff has exploded.

I didn’t get into AMC stuff because I loved it from a young age. I got into AMC because they’re the only manufacturer left of the muscle car era where prices haven’t gone crazy. And even that isn’t entirely true. I had to spend 3,000 dollars on a tunnel ram because so few amc tunnel rams were ever manufactured, and baby boomers have hoarded stuff being unwilling to sell and now think everything they held onto had gained in value.

I have nothing but respect for past generations holding onto this stuff when it was just fun cars that sounded cool. But now everyone sees dollar signs. I think certain stuff will always have value, but overall I look forward to prices dropping and being able to pick up fun stuff for cheap.

Also worth noting, if you want your kids involved in the stuff, keep them around and a part of it. I’m sure it’s not guaranteed, and if my young son ends up not liking the cars, eventually at least one will be his to sell or do what he wants with. But I can’t force him to like it. And at a bare minimum, he has cool photos to see from when he was young.

I agree with your summation. People have been predicting the collapse of musclecar market for years. If you love your cars, enjoy and drive them who cares. If they are investments to you then follow the market trends and make financial decisions based on your needs.

It's not just the upfront cost to buy them, which is bad enough. The cost to insure young drivers these days is astronomical and collector car insurance isn't really a thing until you're 25 - by that age the ship has pretty much sailed for most.

Fewer kids are interested in cars/driving these days, and ones that are interested in old cars and driving them are a miniscule subset of those.

The anecdotal stories about kids being into cars may be cute/inspirational to some, but do not reflect society as a whole.

.....

I made this transition myself.

From '31 Ford Model A to '63 Grand Prix.

Wanted to modernize the fleet a bit.

K

I assume that the very old car community has become niche. I know a mechanic in the Chicago suburbs who can work on Model Ts and all the way up to 70s muscle cars, and he's the only one I can think of who could do a tune up and brakes on a car built in the 20s.

Based on prices I think 60s-70s muscle cars are holding value just fine.

Cool story (I've seen it posted on here and PY enough times already, though), but it's just another anecdotal story in our little echo chamber that doesn't reflect society as a whole.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples on this forum (hell, I have one of my own) and/or in fading car clubs, but in the grand scheme of things those numbers are insignificant.

It's not like the muscle car hobby is going to vanish tomorrow - it will always be around in some form, but it is certainly changing/shrinking as folks age out.

You know, no one has a crystal ball. Again, if you’re in business and it's your livelihood then keep on top of it like every successful business. Over the past 40 years, there have been ups and downs whether due to economic conditions or other variables, but my passion has never wavered. Actually, if the market softens there will be opportunities to own cars that were out of reach and may be more attractive to the younger crowd.

I had a friend who was obsessed with the musclecar market and predicted its collapse over the last 15 years. I always told him all I need is to go in my garage, wrench on a car or take it out for a spirited ride and to hell with everything else😊. Speculating is a gamble, enjoy the hobby for what it brings you.

Who know they may ban electric cars and we could be sitting on a gold mine LOL!!!!

I don’t think anyone here is in disagreement that it isn’t changing/shrinking. Baby boomers took the world by storm, and made the world was it is today, both good and bad. But demographics is destiny. The two graphs are USA population in 1960 and USA population today broken down by age.

I’m here patiently waiting for the day I can buy an affordable Superbird or Daytona so I can live my white trash dream of a wing car, jacked up in the rear, on 15x10 Slot mags with N50’s hanging out back, blasting Deep Purple out of an 8 track, banging gears in an A833 like my life depends on it, treating it like it was made to be treated.

Collecting these cars did a lot of great things, and saved many that would’ve otherwise been parted out or scrapped. And I’m incredibly grateful that older generations than me cherished the stuff like that and were eventually willing to spend like they did on it. But what saved a lot of these cars is what will be starting to hurt it in the future.

My observation is that more kids are interested in cars today than 20 years ago. The recent musclecar wars have fueled a new generation of car enthusiasts.


I'm a Millenial too (1982). Our generation had a big disadvantage in that we were too young to get any good performance parts in the junkyards and too old to get into the cheap LS/turbo stuff in our youth.

When we were 16-25, if you got a junkyard 350 or 454 it was a low compression, cast piston, weak rod, junk head engine that took a hefty machine shop bill and a lot of aftermarket parts to turn it into anything reasonably high-performance. LS stuff was still new and expensive.

The LS/turbo or just cammed LS stuff has brought hotrodding back to the young guys building high performance cars out of junkyard parts. I know more under-30 car guys than 30-45yo car guys because they grew up with real performance engines being attainable at home. They're not doing stuff with musclecars because of the economics, not because they're not interested.

The LS engine has brought back the junkyard hotrodder like how it started with the Flatheads.

Pretty much agree with most but some points to make

The speech this is about is what I would call a "glass is half empty" attitude in the extreme.

I am definitely a "glass is half full" attitude in the extreme.
Mid boomer here

Derek covered model T so I will start at model A'

Never owned one but friends did.
They fell off the pedestal long ago but like the model t still had a following so price receded but did not totally collapse.

I started with a 36 Ford 5w coups at 13.
Switched to 33- 34 cars and still have some.
They have gone through many up and down cycles in price but still can bring high prices.
Definitely not what they did 1995 through 2005 but not totally collapsed.

In the mid 70's it was not hard to buy a running driving ss396 Chevelle for $200 in MPLS MN. Camaro 396 cars were less common but could be found.
Had a mess of them

Drifted into Hemi Mopar's in 83- 84 and started buying them.
Paid $7,500 for first one.
The 66 Coronet black 4spd sedan with 7,100 miles on it i have posted here'
It was at MCACAN last year. [not mine since 1993]
Word got around a crazy guy in MPLS would pay $5,000 cash for a reasonably complete Hemi car and they started finding me. Had 18 of them.

Along came summer 1989 and I had my 70 Challenger RT at 'DODGE of BURNSVILLE' show swap.
Had made a hitch that bolted to the tie down brackets and another existing hole on each side.
Did no harm to car.
Pulled my small swap meet trailer with it as I had much surplus stuff from buying parts cars to get dana 60's and hd 4spds etc.
That was right at the time these cars went crazy the first time and my first glimpse of it. Some thought pulling a swap trailer with a 14,000 mile factory paint 70 Hemi Challenger was a hoot, and some were really pissed about it.
A few have hated me since.
Fred Engelhardt was one spot down from me.
A buddy with an unrestored 70 superbird 6pack auto with hitch and trailer was next to me.
He got pretty much the same reaction I did.

Fred and I knew each other so he looked the Challenger over numerous times.
People asked for price on it so many times I taped a big sign in back window
"car is not for sale"
That slowed it some but did not stop it though.
Bruce Gertner was asking about it also.

Went home and that evening Fred and Bruce both called with Fred being the most aggressive.
He said he would be at my house the next morning with $50,000 cash.
He showed up next morning as I was finishing removal of the hillbilly hitch and putting the spare parts for it in trunk.
He sold it to Bruce the next day.
I had bought it in Feb 89 for $8,000

Decided it was time to buy land, so most cars left.

That started in 1989 but by 1993 the market had settled way down.
Heard much talk of "collector cars are dead"

Actually, advertised the Boss 429 in Hemmings back in the dark years and did not get a response at $40,000.
Twice what I paid for it in 1986.

Pretty much did nothing with cars but happened to watch parts of the Feb 2002 auction in Az and saw cars were alive again.
Red 66 ss396 325 4spd Chevelle brought $125,000.
Nice car but!!

Along comes 2006 and I get a call from Fred Engelhardt. He had someone looking for an honest 69 Boss 429 and had seen mine on several occasions. Car market was obviously very hot as he offered a lot for the car and he got it. Bought more land like I did with the earlier ones.

Also familiar with collecting old 2 cyl JD tractors.
They peaked around 2006 also.

Most know what happen a few years later and it is still sputtering some.

Point is it goes up and it goes down and it goes up and down again.
Seems to be a somewhat firm bottom to it though.
I view it as a cycle repeating itself.

When I was selling off the Hemi Mopar's I added 295 acres in one chunk to my back yard.
Jan 1993 at $254.00 per acre.
Feb 1995 160 acre addition at $310.00 per acre

I do not think all is dead now any more than at low points in past.
We simply buy what is down and that is why we are adding cars to the shed.
Bought a decent 24,000-mile L78 M22 69 Chevelle [OLE BLUE] in 2022
Paid $42,278 on epay.
Do not know if that has gone up or down but do not care.
It was not bought for resale.
Son loves it so it is not going the junk it route the video guy hypes.

For sure cannot buy land around here for anything other than nutso prices now.

Zolper is a hard watch. Tons of negativity and a know it all persona. But that's what sells on social media.


The hobby is as strong as it ever has been. Car culture is generational, like fashion and music. Once you reach a certain age one tends to yearn for their youth. The true car hobbyist doesn't live in an era, he can appreciate everything and enjoy everything without trying to relive a past. That guy will always be in the minority. So cars will always have value.


Gen X is coming on strong with values of Fox Mustangs, Turbo Buicks and surprisingly 3rd Gen Camaros. Fox cars have sold for over 200,000 recently. Collectors want the Cobras and others want the car they couldn't afford in high school. Thats the same formula that drove the first muscle car boom in the late 80s.


BTW a 1979 Mustang Pace car is 46 years old. The last "Fox Body" is 32 years old. They are now well into collector car territory. And they are hot.

I probably saw it when Bruce had it, but I turned 7 years old in 1989, so I really don't remember seeing a Challenger. Bruce lived on the farm my Dad grew up on, about half a mile from the farm where I grew up.

He had a custom painted orange and white 2-tone Hemi/4spd Superbird around that same time. (maybe that was owned by Norb?) That was the first winged car I ever saw.

I built the motor for the orange Hemi bird.
Norb was with when Bruce picked it up.
It rode home in the back of Bruces old Caddy hearse.
Norb told Bruce he had a tractor loader with a trip bucket he could install it with.
Pretty hilarious scene after that.
Bird was Bruces for all I knew.

Bruce was a genuine character.

Fred was more of a businessman.
Fred got my 70 Hemi Cuda also.

Cale get his cowboy hat yet?

I'm Gen X, I have a lot of friends who were always into performance cars. As they've gotten older some have moved into foreign late model cars but hey they still appreciate muscle cars.

I don't think Superbirds will ever come down.

And some muscle cars are so iconic they will always be popular, like the '69 Camaro.

I like the earlier comment about the LS scene, we got into it big in 1998 and it just took off. I remember the first guy who swapped an LS into a 1st gen camaro back in 1999.

All I can say is if you have attended LS Fest most dudes seam to be in their 20’s and 30’s and they all have beards! lol. Plenty of young dudes in the hobby in my opinion.

Agreed! Also, take one look at the crowds at MCACN. It seems like it gets bigger every year. If that starts to slip, I'll start to worry but I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

I do some consulting for Holley LS Fest.

We typically have 550 drag entries (its capped) and 1200 in the car show. The grandstands at Beech Bend are completely full on Saturday I think total foot traffic over the weekend is ~25,000 people.

Yup, I race down there and it’s crazy how that keeps growing. I was paying attention in the lanes and there were plenty of younger guys and gals participating. Also like SBR said, I also attend MCACN every year and that show sure don’t seem to be slowing down! Awesome show for sure!

The problem is they're too damn expensive. When most of the members of this site were 20, you could go out and buy a big block Chevelle with a summer job (unless, of course, he was overseas- no disrespect there). Today, a 20 year old is too busy trying to survive their bills. If the Camaro was not left to me, I'd have zero hope of owning one. I've been complaining for years that the investor mindset has absolutely ruined this hobby. The same guys who wax nostalgic about buying an LS6 Chevelle for $500 in 1975 turn around and want $15,000 for a basketcase 307 Malibu that needs every single panel, every single nut, and every single bolt replaced. All of my friends absolutely love old cars, but most of them, unless they've inherited one like I did, simply can't afford one. Then, even if you buy one, the parts aren't cheap. The insurance, not cheap. And having a place to store one? Absolutely forget it

I would add that social media has such a huge influence on the youth of today, and that people/channels like Cleetus McFarland (Garrett Mitchell), Stradman, Vice Grip Garage, Whistlin' Diesel, etc., are drawing kids out of the cyber world (at least partially) and into the car world. Maybe not all into muscle cars of yore, but at least into the mechanical realm vs video games. My older step son is 25 and he loves old muscle but new exotics as well, but my younger son isn't into cars too much (15) although he does have a mild interest. Time moves on and who knows what will happen in the future, but I think the move back to ICE for now will keep the collector car world progressing for quite sometime yet. I think the famous Mark Twain quote, “The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated” would apply to the world of collector cars.

Interesting stories! I grew up around all those guys. Norb farmed the land on 3 sides of our farm. It was not a big deal to drive through town and see something like a real Sox & Martin Pro-Stock car sitting on Fred's trailer. It's fun to talk about some of these things with other guys my age... nobody believes half the stuff I've seen.

I went to school with Fred's kids, and I'm still friends with them today. When I first got my drivers' license, I'd park my Dad's 68 Camaro in front of the High School next to a '71 Barracuda convertible before Fred sold it to the studio for the Nash Bridges TV show.

My first ever ride doing a burnout was in Norb's 71 'cuda 340 red w/black billboard car. I'd guess I was about 8. Been hooked on the smell of tire-smoke ever since.

I don't remember much about Bruce. I was pretty young last I saw him. I mostly remember seeing him driving some really beat up junk for daily-drivers and looking more like a homeless guy than a collector of rare Mopars. :D

No cowboy hat yet...
The "Grand Champion" competition sells out instantly. I've been avoiding it for a while since I don't have the HP to score well on the drag racing portion of that, but with a new 427ci LS engine being built, I might try to come back again.

----I think the Fred you all are referring to had ownership of "Red Alert" for a period. I had an extra new set of special valve springs for Red as I had left the tension on them for about a year without starting the engine (I know, not smart). I messaged Fred that I would gladly give him the valve springs and not to start or certainly not race the car with the springs in it. That message was not paid any attention and I heard that the engine that Jimmy Reid built for me got damaged from a "broken valve spring".....Bill S

I was just getting ready to post this. If muscle cars are dead, why are the crowds at MCACN the largest of all time. I GUARANTEE you it wasn't so they could see the eight Pinto based Mustang II "King Cobra" cars!!!!

I have advised MANY people over the years to NEVER buy a car as an investment. This applies to antiques, muscle cars, and ESPECIALLY any new car that the manufacturer indicates is a "future collectible". * See below. You buy the car you love. Enjoy it. If it goes up in value, all the better. But just enjoy it. I paid $900 for my 69 Z/28 in 1976. I have turned down $120K. Has it topped out? Am I "stupid" for not selling at the top of the market? Hell no; I am still enjoying it. It won't likely leave the family until I am gone, and even then it may not. I don't give a rat's ass what it is worth 20 year after I am dead. Will I have enjoyed it any less.

I am having a blast with my 57. If I ever go to sell it, won't likely recoup my investment, even if it is an original dual four car. I just don't care.

* As for a new car being the next collector item. I have posted this before; but remember when 1976 El Dorado Convertibles routinely sold for double sticker because it was the "last American Convertible"? Yeah, that's right. Think you could recoup your investment on that one correcting for inflation and adding in the cost of insuring and tagging it each year.

Just a year and a half ago, you had to pay most GM dealers $40 over sticker for a Z06. One just sold on BAT for $106k. It had 625 miles, and an original sticker of $137k plus. Hopefully the guy didn't pay over sticker.

My son is now 35 and has always been into Camaro's. Just like me, he has owned Camaro's since he was 16. I bought my '68 in '86, sold it in '01 for a 4th gen. Shortly thereafter I regretted it. He rode in it from when he was born and up into his teens when I sold it. He gave me a hard time for selling it every opportunity he got, up until I bought it back several years ago. He will inherit it and I feel confident he will keep it and care for it. He himself has a nice '69 RS that he loves. FWIW, It's all original and I have made it clear that I will haunt him if he starts modifying it.

Agreed, the folks from that era ( I turned 67) are dying off and most of their offspring are not interested in classic cars but hopefully, there are enough (like my son) that will keep it alive.

The rare stuff will increase in value, finite quantity.

Rebuilding older cars with modern components will increase too I think.

Rarity is subjective. The value of anything is the story. Its not the object. Once people don't care about the story anymore the value is gone. If I build a 67 Camaro, put a 427 in it, and slap badges with my name on it, its worthless. Other than being a mode of transportation. Don Yenko does it and guys freak out and pay tons of cash to own it. As something collectible. Guys are now freaking out to buy Saleens.


30 years ago this car was 15,000 Now its 140,000.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...tang-saleen-3/


Run of the mill notchback sold for 51,000. I sold mine in 04 for 7,500 bucks
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...tang-saleen-3/


Cobra R, 210,000
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...vt-cobra-r-13/


Gen X is buying "their" story cars. Foxtoberfest had 897 Fox Mustangs this year. These cars wont go up forever. They will plateau and crash back to earth when the current generation becomes middle aged.

Yeah all those examples are of rare models, we are kind of agreeing.

And of course some year cars are just super popular like the 55-57 Chevys.

I agree with Joe 100%. I have been collecting for 40 years and have a massive collection of vintage signs, gas pumps, pop machines, oil cans, etc. and have no kids or a wife. What do I with it, keep staring at it or sell it and move to the tropics and get fed grapes by beautiful women? If I was younger, I'm 59, and had the money I would buy all the fox body Mustangs, IROC's, performance G bodies, Trans Am's, and Civic SI's I could and hoard them. You think they are high priced now, just wait!

My point is rarity is subjective. Its made up. A notchback Mustang wasnt rare in 87-93. They were not sought after. Guys wanted hatchbacks.


The older muscle car guys hated "new" Mustangs. They didnt think they were rare at all.


The 93 Cobra was laughed at when compared to a 93 Camaro. However 30 years later these things are all of sudden rare. Nobody is going to buy a 93 Camaro over a Cobra. Because they are collectible now. Now they are rare. Even though Ford made 5000 of them.


Prices will drop when the owners age. Everything becomes a niche after the boom.

My automotive writer friend and I were talking about this recently. That stuff is cool but our generation has no attachment to it.

I think you are confusing the terms "rare" vs "desireable".

K

Not at all. You need both for sustained value. Which is my whole point. Noticed I wrote twice the price of cars will nose dive once the generations age. Its the desirability part you mention.