Z/28 Paint Application ??? - 76 76 Daytona Yellow
 

Getting my Daytona Yellow Z/28 ready for a trip to the body shop where it will soon undergo a complete rotisserie restoration. Knowing a fair bit about how the factory paint process I am still unclear on a few things that I would like to know more about? I am hoping to recreate a factory-style paint job and I do have a few application questions regarding cowl paint, stripe blackout in the front plenum, and underbody paint that I could use some help with? I could also use a refresh on trunk paint and the best products to use? That being said I will look for an old thread I recall on that subject. (Mike D'Angelo)

When the body and floor work is complete, I plan to have the entire underside epoxied/sealed in a grey primer. It will then receive a satin black finish blown onto most the lower floor pans in towards and back to the tunnel/s and a dusting of the rear frame rails up into the rear end tunnel & back towards the rear valance. The underside of the tank will be left with exposed sealer/primer, as will the majority of the forward trans tunnel area. When the firewall is ready for paint, it will be based in yellow at the same time as the jambs, rear wheel wells and cowl plenum being sprayed. It will then be followed in satin black with some of the lower front floor sections still having some exposed grey primer showing from the edges of the front seam in towards the tunnel. The idea is to then blow the firewall paint back into the tunnel area and recreate that spattered grey/black finish found on many factory survivors. Just to be sure, I thought I better ask the following random questions before attempting to do this right:

1.) What brand/type of satin black paint are many of you using on the firewall area and floor sections today? Last I recall a decent satin black finish was becoming very hard to find and was discontinued by some companies like Eastwood or SEM?

2.) Was the black blockout paint under/inside the cowl plenum a flat colored product or was it the same as the satin finish on the front firewall?

3.) With the dashtop being refinished, I could use a product suggestion for the suede like paint used on the top of the dash. Brand/Type or source for it?

I'm assuming the front sub-frame didn't go under the body until all of the bodies prep painting and floors were done? I'm somewhat curious because I have only ever witnessed that grey/black spatter along the front inner tow boards and centered in towards/up into the front tunnel area beyond the shifter hole. You can also find it blown back onto the floors, but mostly towards the edges of the tunnel. I have not seen this spatter effect under the points where the sub-frame would be located and that has me wondering if the subframe was already under the car when the firewall and lower section of the front tunnel were sprayed or blown back under the body?

With all of the floors and firewall done as close to factory as possible, the next focus will be on the final body prep with assembly of the front clip. Before doing so, I should ask:

4.) Are there any factory specific applications of primer/paint/color on the inner front fenders, front valances or the fender extensions that I should be aware of prior to assembly and final paint?

5.) I would also like to know the proper application of underhood paint on a Daytona yellow car such as the blow in or lead in area under the outer edges of the hood?

I'm assuming this area outside of the hood insulation is yellow while the middle of the cowl area is satin black. I'm just not sure if the underside of these edges were ghosted in yellow while the hood was cracked, or if those areas were painted solid yellow up to the edge of where the hood insulation would be? Such as sprayed with the hood lifted up?

6.) Assuming the underside ot the cowl tail-flap area was black, did the yellow get a hard taped edge under the year tail/flap, or was that area fogged with the flap area being taped off?

7.) Finally, I recall some pointers that M22Mike posted a few years ago on proper Shutz gun use and the correct application of Norwood spatter paint. I will re-read that section since I'd like to create the trunk spray as close to factory as possible. That being said, I'm sure I could use a few pointers or maybe a couple suggestions on the sourcing of those products?

When the body is finally painted, no drop cloths will be used under the car so that the factory style yellow overspray is found being dusted under the sides of the floor pans, the rear frame rails inside the wheel openings, and a dusting onto the trunk pan ridges. Not so much a deliberate attempt to hit any of it, but a nonprotected approach to stop any of it from being dusted while spraying the rockers and lower body lines.

If any of you paint experts have anything you'd like to suggest, I am your captive in this thread. My bodyman & painter is a well accomplished guy who's been a panel beater and custom painter going on 50 years now, but his experience in creating factory concourse applications is somewhat limited. That isn't to say he isn't capable, it just that he has to be led in these areas and the more I know, the better I can share the little details with him. I plan to be present and help him with all application concerns as well as being there to ensure the stripes are masked off correctly!

I appreciate any tips or pointers from the pro's etc. Thanks sYc

You & I have spoke about this in detail & it will be interesting to see what others have to say. I am only a few days away from putting paint on mine. The one thing I tell my painter is "don't try to duplicate overspray, but don't prevent it either". I will be watching the painters closely starting Thursday....Joe

Some pics of the yellow paint found under the firewall black and the original overspray found under the car today. There are some of the processes I am planning to recreate when it's painted in a couple months from now. I'm hoping I pull this off right as I want it being as close to factory as possible.

https://i.ibb.co/PD6QnrJ/IMG-1944.jpg
Yellow body color found under the black firewall paint.

https://i.ibb.co/tYK76Bw/IMG-1947.jpg
I always thought the black was atop body primer. Wrong!

https://i.ibb.co/fSH4m9j/IMG-1958.jpg
Yellow overspray on the trunk pan.

https://i.ibb.co/Js52yGd/IMG-1959.jpg
This blew in as far as the tank straps and cnter ridges.

https://i.ibb.co/t43zhRC/IMG-1963.jpg
Even the insides of the tank straps got dusted from the opposing sides.

https://i.ibb.co/FwK2Tcf/IMG-1965.jpg
Here you can see the wheel houses and rails were painted before being undercoated. They were also dusted after the fact.

https://i.ibb.co/R6cjgDg/IMG-1964.jpg
It looks like the diff tunnel even got a deliberate shot of color sprayed up inside the tunnel? Direct over grey primer it would appear.

As good as it gets:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthre...ighlight=grady

Thanks for the link William. I've read through Mikes thread on Grady's Copo build a few times, but missed that Mike had referenced the paints he used on the bottom of the car. Probably because I wasn't about to paint a car when I read through those pages, and was also too heavily focused on the pictures of Grady's car at the time. I'll look up those PPG numbers provided they are still being used today? So much has changed with PPG Satin Finishes & Clear Coats over the past few years.

Mark B. was also kind enough to send some great original photo's of factory yellow floor applications which further supports the use of predominantly grey finishes prior to yellow being applied. These all serve as great reference materials to painting and refinishing a car with a factory correct look.

Cheers...G

I sent the body shop that is doing my car pics from Grady's build to replicate. It very closely matched what I found when I hand-stripped the underside of my car.

You bet, and it's very much the way I found the underside of the Lemans Blue car when I peeled back the paint on the floors. Lots of grey existed in some spots, but I am also learning that different colored cars got different colored primer, and that yellow cars would appear to have much less black applied to the floors and rear frame rails than say a dark colored car. Learning a lot about the primers and floor paint, or the lack of in some cases.

I already copied Grady's info onto a printed booklet to deliver to my painter for reference. He agrees that using a black base with satin clear is the way to go on the floor and firewall. This should deliver a consistent satin finish. I'll just need to show him where to leave the grey finish and where to blow things back under the floor.

In either case, this is the way! (lol)

Back in the '80s, we did a ZL1 and a '67 Z/28. Did both undercarriages in satin black. No body color overspray, no primer. Common back then.

Sure has changed over the years.

I agree William. I've been involved in a couple of frame off restorations now, and never fussed about the floors until now. Always sprayed a satin black finish and never thought twice about it. Not until I started reading some of the detailed forum threads and crawled under a couple clean survivor cars did I know or learn what the actual factory finish processes were.

Some say knowledge is king, others will tell you it's a curse. I'm undecided as I'm still learning. (lol)

I used sikkens ralley black for my satin. Nice paint to spray. It might be under a different name now.
The only PPG stuff I could find, you had to mix up the flattener yourself from a chart they had. Spraying the already canned sikkens seemed easier for me to do myself.

no 2 cars where the same, it was an assembly line. Different people different shifts. It was all about putting the cars down the line as fast and productive as they could. Restore it back to how you found it. Looks like you have pictures to back that up on what ever you are going to do. To many people over restore these cars that's just my opinion.

Hello Graeme,

When I was restoring the last few 1969 Camaros I did, I found this article to be a great resource. It is on the CRG site written by John Hinckley.

It really dissects the assembly and painting process in great detail.


http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml


http://http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Paul

Was the first primer gray, and other in corrosion areas red? Might explain this. I haven't asked my painter to reproduce the runs ... :no:

Attachment 172273

To answer your second question NorCal, the black out used under the cowl on our Z, with black stripes, was not a satin or flat. It's gloss.

Mine is still original in this area and it's clearly a gloss black. Why the factory would bother in this area on a black stripe car since the firewall is getting blacked out anyway I'm not sure, but they carried the gloss black all the way out to the edge of the firewall, much like you see a white stripe Z done. My firewall then transitions into the satin finish over the edge.

I'm sure this process varied with plant and time of production. Mine is a 12D Norwood Z.

Another interesting point on mine, with it's original firewall paint still intact as well, is they weren't all that generous with the blackout. Mine has a lot of Frost Green showing through all around the trans tunnel right where it makes the transition behind the engine. I also have a fair amount of Frost Green showing through below the brake booster. The blackout was used very sparingly. I also have quite a bit of Frost Green showing through in the rear wheel well areas, mainly down on the frame rails that is still there. The black out of the rear wheel wells seems to have been done sparingly as well.

Something else I noticed on mine that wouldn't be present on an X77, Mine being an X33 has the lower rocker black out treatment. So when I carefully cleaned the floors, I didn't see a ton of Frost Green blown in on the floor pans, it was mostly black and faded to some Frost Green starting to show the closer you get to the rear wheel wells, where the green appears to be deliberately shot.

Another interesting thing on mine, if you really want to get picky, is the stripe application. The original on my cowl panel is still present. And where the tape line goes as it drops off towards the hood has a jagged edge on one stripe with a very pronounced step in it. Can only be seen with the hood up. It's an interesting factory blooper and I'm told from those that know and have seen it, that Z's at Norwood during this time frame of production are known to have this blooper.

I'm guessing something in the template used was messed up and was corrected at a later time.

Rob, although reports say that all cars received a gray primer-surfacer before being baked, I've been told by multiple people that different color primers were known to have been used between light and dark colored cars and have shown up on many survivors? Many of the dark colored cars have been found to have a red primer used under body color in some areas? Not sure if that was from the beltline down or just the wheel areas???

There may be truth to that NorCal, I'm not sure.

Mine being a Frost Green car, has grey primer that is very visible around the trans tunnel and when I removed the gas tank just about everything under and around the gas tank was grey primer. I've never found a spec of red primer anywhere on the car.

paint application
 

I know my car has grey primer and its Fathom Green but its a Van Nuys car.

My understanding was LOS/VAN Nuys cars were all gray primer. Norwood body , red oxide then gray. I do not believe the front clips got the red oxide, just gray ? In the first picture the trunk lid was closed when the gray primer was applied.
Third shot is a LOS car, no red primer.
Also , as mentioned, the first gen assy process by John Hinkley is a must read.

My Lemans Blue car had a lot of exposed gray primer along the front edges of the toe boards, inside the rear frame rails and all along the rear valance under the tank. Lots of black was sprayed up inside the differential tunnel, trans tunnel and covered all of the main floor boards.

In talking to a couple people with original paint cars, I was told a few have been found with red primers here and there but I think that was mostly found on dark colored cars. Who knows, maybe they ran dry of gray and pulled a tank of red into finish some productions? On this yellow car, it's most if not all gray primer underneath with considerable yellow over-spray. I'm really not seeing much of any black being applied anywhere?

I think I will stick to the original plan and do it like I first intended which is pretty near to what Mike D had done on Grady's Copo. Black out the main areas and keep some gray inside the center of the tunnel and under the tank. Can't go wrong there.

Big Shout out to Mark Bulaw for taking the time to send over 50 pictures of original paint cars for me to study. Very helpful with everything from base floor colors and interior primers to the correct firewall paint applications. Bonus for the day included some original stripe measurements from his low mile Hugger Orange Z/28. These will serve me very well.

You are a great steward to the hobby Mark!

Thanks :youguysrock:

For the main body (the part without overspray :hmmm: ), are you using single stage paint? It appears that Grady's was done with a base coat/clear coat. That's my current plan also but assume it won't look like the original paint job
.

Rob,

I considered using TCP single stage but after thinking about it, I decided to stick with modern 2 stage base clear paint. We will tint the color until it perfectly matches the existing DY paint in and around the jambs. A good painter can lay the stripes on so they can still be felt even after it's cleared.

Myself, I don't like the clear built up to the point the stripes are completely buried.

They're using PPG single stage on mine. With the problems they went through on the color, they were concerned with a possible color change it clear was used....Joe

What would happen with base/clear if you only put the base on the bottom for over spray? I thought as thin as the original over spray was on the bottom of my car that it looked pretty flat. The burgundy on mine really showed up on the bottom of the car but not much gloss

If you spray base only, you will have to add a hardener (base fix ?) It will dry almost flat finish and will deteriorate over time if exposed to sun and elements.


I have used this for some repair/blow-ins on my dead paint 68 Acadian. Matched very well and lasted about 8 years parked outside (summers only)

Much like Mike did with Grady's car, I would think it would be better sealed in a satin clear and let a little overspray hit the typical areas. I wouldn't want to spray an unsealed base product even with a hardener unless it was to try and blend something as noted above.

In a separate topic, I ordered a quart of trunk spatter from HBC today and will see how that sprays out using a shutz gun or a pressure pot for the trunk area.

I don't recall seeing red primer on a 69 NOR car.
All bodies were primed the same - what a logistical nightmare to have two different primer colors....

Here are some shots of original paint cars with red/brown primer having been used on the interior, trunk area and underside of the cowl panel. I believe these were all Norwood cars. Myself, I have not seen red/brown primer on outer body surfaces other than what Mike had posted earlier.

https://i.ibb.co/PjYDrmT/Brown-Trunk-Primer.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/dPf22tW/Galvanized-Brown.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/C7tb2VG/Wire-Tab-Brown.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Snj623w/Cowl-Primer.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/vQzkGHZ/Norwood-Cowl.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/86x8rxY/FG-Camaro-Brown-Primer.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/z5qGHj9/More-Cowl-Primer.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/9GD4mMN/Primer-w-Zinc-Overspray.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/x3cq4sQ/Primer-Zinc.jpg

A couple more shots of an RS Copo with brown primer used in the trunk area. The pictures above are of from survivor paint cars and include Hugger Orange, Fathom Green and Lemans Blue cars built 04C, 03D and 04C. Hope some people find this information useful when repainting their cars with factory like effects.

https://i.ibb.co/xm6kfvk/RS-Copo-Drips.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/bXn86kM/RS-Copo-Primer.jpg

That brown I've seen. Which is different from the red that shows up in 70+.

This thread is interesting. Very enjoyable.

Graeme, some gray primer going on mine now :biggthumpup:

Attachment 172845

That's awesome Rob. :biggthumpup:

I was out working in the shop all weekend and didn't see this until now. Any more pics?

Hey Graeme - I was at the shop yesterday. It's about 3 weeks into the project now. They did a lot of the disassembly also like the subframe, motor, glass, etc. That was a good decision for me. The body is on the rotisserie getting some small issues fixed. I"m having them do two hoods. The flat hood iss correct for the car and will come home wearing it. The cowl hood was added by the original owner.

Attachment 173220

Attachment 173221

Attachment 173222

Not sure exactly what year and car models you are talking about. I checked my 72 Nova SS, it is a Van Nuys built California car and has the red oxide primer inside the fenders, and back seat support brace you can see inside the trunk. So maybe not all cars used the gray primer as you stated.

Mostly, the reference was to 1969 Camaro models, Norwood built cars and how they were painted, but that discussion has expanded a little into other plants and timelines. I was looking for constants in how the 69 cars were painted and learned a lot from this discussion. My next thing on my list is dialing in the stripe measurements and painting the trunk in a factory like finish.

I have been asked to comment further on this thread so I will offer the following:

Having watched this thread with interest from the start, the reality of the specific process used at Norwood had pretty significant operational variations from other plants especially those that were flat plant designs with a GMAD transition complete - specifically Lordstown and Van Nuys.

Most all of the variations under discussion here can be explained through a specific and detailed description of the assembly process that was specific to Norwood.

That's about all I have to say because to say more will expose the confirmation bias present within a number of posts made already- and the outcome will likely just end up in another brawl with zero value for any of us.

I do agree with one comment specifically. If you restore your car as you found it then you will NEVER be wrong.

I do agree with one comment specifically. If you restore your car as you found it then you will NEVER be wrong.

I am trying my very best to do that as I do find quite a bit of conflicting info depending on source.

Very well stated Sir.

I have read your Norwood related posts in the past and do hold them in high regard. I hope my earlier posts didn't come off sounding biased as that was really not my intention. I am still new to many of the details in how the plants did things and as always, I strive to learn as much as possible about the processes.

Being an original paint car, I had a lengthy discussion with my painter earlier this week. We reviewed exactly how it was painted at the factory and were in the midst of formulating a plan when he brought up the past cars he has painted for me and just how happy I was with the clean look that came from that process? (example below)

https://i.ibb.co/qyCkxnb/IMG-4048.jpg

That conversation now has me questioning the plan for the car at hand. It no longer has it's original drive line, is taking on a new look when it's done (day 2 performance inspired) and much of what will be seen under the car will be far from factory including the engine, trans, the differential, headers, exhaust and more. He said to me, if you're planning to dress it with the colorful day 2 headers, Lakewood red safety gear and yellow slapper bars and powder coating everything else...isn't that the perfect contrast for the satin black applied to the last car?

I answered yes!

I have really come to appreciate the factory correct restoration methods being replicated today, and the attention to detail that many will strive to achieve. To the common person, it may present as being a mess when compared to many of the trophy cars out there, but to the purist, I'm sure it is more appreciated. I think I can appreciate both styles of restoration if the work is quality driven, but lean towards factory correct. I know who started me down that path! (lol)

I'm still not completely sure what will be done with the underside of this one right now, but I'm sure it will be sorted in the coming weeks. The firewall and trunk detail will for sure mimic the factory side of things, just not sure I want bright yellow overspray to adorn the freshly restored floors underneath.

...and the dilemma continues