King of the Muscle Cars
 

Ok, I had a lively discussion with a gentleman here a little bit ago. We were discussing what is the "King of the original Muscle Cars". Lets say 1964-1974 to be all the way fair.

He was steadfast that the 70 Chevelle LS6 was the King of the Muscle Cars and had been proclaimed that by numerous magazines and it is just known as the King.

I took a more rounded approach saying there can be many Kings. Top HP, Top Torque, Best ride, etc... But I had never heard the LS6 proclaimed as "The King" anywhere for anything. Not in Magazines or in person at events such as MCACN or Woodward, etc...

I agree that the LS6 Chevelle is awesome, it is my favorite Chevelle and an all around great car.

What think you guys?!

This is the car that started all this. A 70 Chevelle SS 454 LS5 4-speed Convertible with A/C I found rotting in a farmers front yard.

https://www.facebook.com/TheAutoArch...1746707516185/

I don't think there is a king. Perhaps the 1968 Hemi Super Stock Darts? That's the only thing I can think of that was pretty much the fastest in the day.

This is something that has been debated for years; some will declare the street Hemis as the king or the LS6 Chevelles or the 1970 Stage 1 Buicks. I think each manufacturer has their "King" and on any given day each one could be the overall king.
In the end, does it really matter?

There are a lot of rare & desirable cars - 71 Hemi Cuda, 69 RA IV Judge, 69 440 6-pack Road Runner, 69 Boss 429, 69 RA IV TA, 70 AMX 69 Z28, 70 RA IV TA, 68 RA II GTO or Bird - 70 LS6 Chevelle is just another one in the pack.

If there were to be a King...IMO there'd be one in each brand, and although the LS6 Chevelle would be held in high regard, it would not be king among my GM pick. My order might be something like;

Chevrolet = ZL1 (undoubtedly King)
Mopar = Hemi Cuda/Challenger (draw perhaps)
Ford = GT500 Shelby

I'm sure we could go into others lines like Buick, Pontiac etc. where each lineage holds it's own "King" but I'll leave that for another day as the list would no doubt be long.

There are a few collectors around who hold each of these in their collection. :worship:

can be a lot of opinions on this as there were many great muscle cars

the LS6 450 HP was a high rating for the 60s and 70s

there was one article back in the day that called the 454 Motion Super Vega ‘King Kong'

it was advertised as a 9sec street car

I think one also has to take into an account availability. LS6 Chevelles were somewhat plentiful when compared to a 68 Hemi Dart or a 69 ZL1 as these could be extremely hard to come by unless you had unlimited funds. If you are including 1964 than the Thunderbolt should rank up there but were no picnic to drive or stop. A 427 Cobra would hold it's own as well but we should talk regular production (500 or more) vs limited or hand built. Besides that the 68 Hemi Darts were not street legal so they should not be included though no one doubts they were absolute brutes. I have always been under the impression that the 70 455 Stage 1 was the top dog in this fight followed by the LS6 and then maybe the 440 Cuda. Hemi cars were fast but they needed to get some speed behind them to show their real potential and they rode, drove and stopped like crap when compared to a Buick or Chevelle. I am obviously biased to an LS6 Chevelle but think with all things considered the Buick would be the winner in that game. Like it has been said a couple of times, pretty much every manufacturer out there had their own "King" that should be well respected and could be the top dog. No one will ever win this argument that has been going on for some 40 years.

i think a guy could isolate year by year and find a winner PER YEAR...but to throw it all together...theres too much to consider


wasnt there a road test where the 70 GS stage one beat everything in its class?..and a corvette isnt in the same class..so that wont wash...

then, what do you do with ringers? like 421 powered GTOs that where passed around the media and where presented as show room stock? and theres others...a super stock dodge or t-bolt..is that a muscle car or a race car? who sets the standard and how do you match it all up? isnt a Royal Bobcat a tuner car? could it be considered the ultimate gen 1 GTO? so is a bob cat a factory car or a dealer modified super car?

yeah then theres super cars...where do they fit in? i dunno..

weight per horse power? then what about an L79 Nova..

i heard a guy tell me the 63 K-code fairlane started the whole muscle car era, and everyone on the planet owes that hat tip to ford..all i could do to not laff and kick him in the balls real good..but, i just smiled and moved on...

..but isnt a muscle car a big motor, light body..wasnt the the way it was conceived and translated in the 80s?(yeah..i was around and had GTOs..a bunch of them)...

like said, a 40 year argument that no one can win...

Just my opinion..but Chrysler Winged cars and the Boss 429s are probably the two most significant muscle cars ever built. The Boss Nine was built to sanction the motor for NASCAR racing. Moreover, everyone knows that the cars were built at Kar Kraft, where the entire front end was modified and in large part, hand-fabricated. For me, these two facts are the reasons why Boss 429s are so collectible and historically significant. At a time when the baddest muscle cars were built on the same line as their more mundane brethren, the Boss 429s and the Winged Warriors from Mopar were sent to Kar Kraft and Creative Industries respectively for extensive modification and final assembly. Consequently, the Boss 429s and the winged cars are as close to a "hand-built" muscle car as you can get.

L78 novas
 

The l78 novas were very strong ,competitive runners back in the day!

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King of the muscle cars: 1969 A12 Road Runner/Super Bee.

All you had to order as far as options was a radio. Car came standard with:

440+6 Engine
4 speed or TorqueFlite ($39 extra)
4.10 Dana Posi Rear
HD 11" Drum Brakes
HD 15" Wheels
HD 26" Radiator
G70x15 Redline Polyglas Tires
A hood scoop that actually worked

$3800 including AM radio and destination charge

Can't argue much with that last post.

I think that if you take it from the dealership to the track, the 69 1/2 A12 Mopars were the strongest that I ever ran across. The ZL-1, L-78 and LS-6 cars had bad tires, shifters, suspensions and the smog tuning held them back.

I believe that time and memories have been kind to the stage 1 Buicks as they never ran that hard when new. Go back and look at the old road tests and they will confirm my thoughts. I had friends with a new 70 stage 1 Buick and another with a 70 1/2 Z/28 and the Z/28 won in 2 straight by 2 lengths. In fairness to each, the Z/28 had 3.73 gears and a 4 spd and the Buick had 3.42s and a T-400 and both had the F-60 x 15" tires. They even went at it for top end by hitting it at a 80 mph roll and the Z/28 won that one too.

The Muscle Car Review shootout article in the mid 80s between a hemi Roadrunner and a 70 Stage 1 Buick changed the thoughts on Stage 1 Buicks for a lot of people. I had the opportunity to talk to a passenger who rode to Gainesville in the Stage 1 for the shootout, and he made it very plain to me that the Buick was far from stock.

The hemi cars usually never ran that good on the street either until 1970 when they went to the hydraulic cam and 60 series tires. The earlier hemi cars on the street were usually out of tune and most had poor gearing.

Most of the early muscle cars usually had a poor ignition system which held them back until the plugs were changed out for fresh ones. This would make a huge difference on how the car ran, it usually depended on how fresh the tune was on the car.

The other factor was the ability of the drivers. I watched a lot of cars get beat because the driver did not have the ability of the other driver in the other lane.

This controversy will never end, but my money would be on the A12 Mopars because of assembly line tires, suspension, gearing, exhaust system and the overall combination flat worked on the street. I am not a Mopar fan, but I think they won the stock production title of "King of the Muscle Cars".

for some mopar people the A12 might be the king...maybe..but its overshadowed by the Hemi ...just an opinion, not an argument

TIME IS KIND TO ALL THINGS WE LOVE AND ENJOY...and with age, the story gets better all the time....i dont care wh ya are

The comment about driver talent is important. None of these cars guaranteed a win. I can't even think of a situation where a car with stock tires and an excellent driver would be relevant in the real world. That just sounds like a magazine article or sales propaganda.

IMO - two things that were important for a muscle car: gearing and the driver. Most muscle cars came with 3.55 gears, even the high horsepower cars. You look at all the road test from the 1960s and very few had optimum gearing (3.90 - 4.11). Most were in the 3.23 - 3.55 range.

As for the driver - it mainly applied to manual shift cars. When Chrysler held their "shootout" for their new A12 they had a couple of "regular guys" and Ronnie Sox. Sox was ALWAYS a few tenths lower than the other guys. When Chrysler decided to see what a pure stock A12 could do they removed the entire air cleaner assembly and Ronnie Sox shifted without the clutch at 5200 RPM (which Chrysler engineers told Sox was the best shift point) and posted a 12.91 ET. With the ACA = 13.00

Hands down...ZL-1.... Unless another manufacturer made a factory built racecar with all aluminum motor

But that's just it - the 1969 ZL1 really wasn't a muscle car. It was a purpose built race car and an expensive one at that. Plus you had to add tube headers and run with no exhaust system for the car to reach it's optimum performance level. Run it on the street as delivered from the factory - be prepared to lose a lot of street races. And it was made in a very limited quantity. Cars like the L78s, LS6s, A12s, Hemi cars etc were made by the thousands and almost anyone could afford one let alone walk into a dealership and buy one.

If you include the ZL1 Camaros then you have to include the 1965 A990 Race Hemi Chryslers that would beat any muscle car INCLUDING the ZL1s

Many automotive magazines and muscle car reviews have often considered the 1970 Chevelle SS in general the all-American Muscle car. It was fast for the day, muscular looking and affordable and available to the masses. As far as the King of the muscle cars, there are a handful that would compete for that title. I grew up in So Cal where the car culture was huge. Most of us favored Camaro's, Mustang's or Chevelle's. Mopar's (especially the winged versions) were rare. I would say the all-American moniker is accurate, however, the title of King will always be up for debate. It took years before the legends were made and their subsequent prices and collectibility status have influenced that title.

LEE...You just described an A12....a purpose built race car....

But it wasn't. Chrysler never designed the car for the purpose of say winning NHRA B/Stock.

What the A12 was is a car that was a "turn-key muscle car" with the best features that Chrysler had to offer and most important - be affordable. A car that could beat 90% of the muscle cars on the street at that time. A car that was to be sold in the thousands. That $3800 price I posted was MSRP. You could have easily drove one away for $3550 - HALF the price of a ZL1 Camaro.

The only cars that really gave the A12s a run for it's money were the 1969 L72 COPO Camaros and Chevelles. Same principle as the A12: L72 427/425 HP engine, 4 speed or TH400 (mandatory), PFDB (mandatory) HD cooling package, a Ram Air system that worked (Camaro), RWL tires and 4.10 12 bolt rear.

its a race car..call it anything ya want, every mopar freak on the planet knows they are race cars..heck..i'm a GTO guy and i know A12s are race cars...cheap yes..but race car...

no disrespect..but..its a race car....

IMO - to be crowned "King of the muscle cars" you have to look at the available cars at that time and what came standard/mandatory as far as options on those cars.

Yeah it's great that you could order a 1969 Mustang 428 SCJ Mach 1/Sportsroof with a 4.30 Detroit Locker rear but out of 130,000 built only 1046 did.

The 1970 LS6 Chevelle was a great muscle car. But it came standard with a 3.31 non-Posi 12 bolt rear.

These are factors that should be considered when that crown is awarded. And as far as I am concerned there are only three contenders:

http://s9.postimg.org/7wssxblkf/eee.jpg


http://s17.postimg.org/4t88dz48v/trf.jpg


http://s12.postimg.org/7kjf1o7fh/777.jpg

Why is it a race car? Because it came standard with a 4.10 rear?

All Chrysler did was make their Super Performance Axle Package/Super Track Pak standard minus the PFDB.

IMO - a 4.10 rear was streetable. Not like the standard 4.33 posi rear on the 1968 RA II GTO.

opinions are just that....its just what i believe..and i wont be swayed....just like you wont be..so lets move on...

I own it ............. 1973 SD 455 ............ incredibly fast, great to drive, A/C, power everything, gorgeous, amazing ......... perfect :)

Say it one more time Mark. ;)

If this is moving towards a consensus, we should probably separate the post production "built" cars from the assembly plant cars - such as the Yenkos, Baldwin Motion, Mr. Norm & Shelbys.

Oh I agree, everyone has their opinion and everyones can be different. The other gentleman just was adamant that the 70 Chevelle SS LS6 was considered the "King of the Muscle Cars" by enthusiasts and magazines alike. And it is "well" documented.

I was just trying to get an idea from the group if this was true or not. I have never heard or seen it called that. I agree that there are way too many cars that could be considered "The King" way before even the best LS6 Chevelle.

the king
 

There will never be a consensus on this subject. guys love whats in THEIR OWN BARN.

Yep! :headbang:

Stirring the pot..... but...

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a Camaro considered a pony car and not a muscle car?

Thus the Boss429, COPO's etc are in a different class than what is being discussed, ie muscle cars? Whereas a vette was a sports car?

Even though the barracuda was first, I think it was mustang that started the whole pony car thing.

I'm glad "pony car" stuck because the term "fish car" totally sucks. :)

Rich

Demon (and not of the Dart variety) would hold current scoreboard?

when i was a kid, the "king of the hill" around my town was 70 LS6..it was called the pinnacle of all Chevelles/muscle cars...and right behind it was the 69 L78 Chevelle....there was so much competition to get one, most gear heads could only dream about owning one...and the press pumped this over and over..and Legends where born..or like i call it..Urban Legends where created..you say it or read it enough, and the people believe it...

also, when i came up..the 64 GTO is what the press called the originator of the muscle car..because it was a light body, big engine and mass produced...Joe Everyday could get one..

RO23s... WO23s...A12s...T-bolts...L88s....ZL1s.... and on and on where factory race cars...at least where i came from..they where limited production,,most wherent even advertised, and you had to have a connection to get one...and almost all where filtered to race teams..only after they where used, could a guy even get one...there where exceptions, but just my observation..and i am no historian..

FOR THE RECORD...id rather have an A12 Bee ...than a Hemi anything...I'm a big fan..and really..its in my top 5....I wasnt smart enough to buy a Bright Green one like above in the 90s...running and driving..for $11k needing a resto...i was smart enough to torture it for an hour, and it left an impression..thats for sure...

I went to school with a Joe Everyday...he drove a Vega. :)

EXACTLY :scholar:

I have raced in the pure stock muscle car drag race for the last 10 years. The L88 vette,ZL-1 camaro, A12 roadrunners, 440 6 pack challenger, 68 RA11 firebird and the hemi cuda are always in the top qualifying group, don't forget the L89 vette, chevelle and camaro' as well.

The automatic is faster than the 4 speed in 95% of these. Keep in mind that they require the stock size tire that came on THAT car, 70 hemi cuda and road runner had f-60 tires, that helped a lot .

With the independent rear, the vette leaves the line the quickest.

The fords just can't keep up, even the FE 428 mustangs, the buicks are mid pack, with the Gto ahead of them, especially with the RAiv

Back in the day at Amarillo Dragway I ran my brand spankin' new 70 1/2 Z-28 -- LT-1/4sp/4:10s. I ran that car for most of the summer in B/PS. Held both ends of the track record there with 13.88 ET and 104.22 MPH -- that was at almost 3800 ft of altitude. Corrected to sea level -- 13.25 and 109.21. TAZ

....yet one was street-legal, while the other was not.

IMO the 1970 Chevelle SS LS6 is very hard to argue that its not King.
The ZL1 Camaros were amazing of course, but lets face it that is an "extremely" rare car and I don't see how you can put that in with general musclecars of the day. To be king it has to do everything well IMO. Fast, build quality, solid interior, handling, and just overall well sorted out. I have the LS6 at the top of the list. There are other cars to make the argument, but you can't argue the fact that GM musclecars were overall the most sorted out right out of the box.