Survivor vs Restored
 

The question of which will hold its value gets consideration in this article. Not an American musclecar, but still an interesting comparison

Gullwing Auction

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Yes, the question is what originality has it retained from it's original form, fit and function. If a car has deteriorated to such a high degree I don't know much can be considered original, and therefore why preserve. I have a passion for originality, but some cars are not survivors, they've just barely survived....

For me a well preserved car has more value than a restored car. There is something special about driving a unrestored car because they are like a time capsule and bring you back to, back-in-the-day.

The car in question looks like a decent car....

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

I said it before and I'll say it again that few, if any, restored cars drive as well as an unrestored example of that same model. Today, I was told of a car that is allegedly/supposedly an unaltered original, and I am excited to pursue and possibly purchase it. I've been considering downsizing my small collection and sold one of my cars, however if this latest lead materializes I'll gladly pull the trigger.
The current craze seems to favor "survivor" and "barn finds", but rarely does my idea of a "find" coincide with the vast majority of the hobby. A high quality specimen that was stored properly, in my humble opinion, will always trump a like vehicle that has been restored. Similar to waterfront property, they aren't building any more originals and pricing is likewise reflected.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Great news! Anyone who wants to trade a restored copo for my survivor Z, I'm ready [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Key words &quot;LIKE MODEL&quot;!

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

I will take a Survivor over a restored car also. Original and very nice cars have character that a restored car can not display. The restored car rarely drives like an original .. My observation and opinion.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Many stood in disbelief when these cars sold.

For me it's pretty simple....when your laying out that kind of cash it can be difficult to determine the exact condition of a car prior to restoration. Pictures can be deceiving and a good photographer can be quite selective of lighting, angles, etc to hide the sins. The finished product is spectacular. When your standing in front of these two cars it doesn't take much education to figure out that pretty much all of the parts on the unrestored car came from Stuttgart, Germany. Although restored cars look spectacular much of the end result has very little to do with the factory and suppliers that contributed to the original car.

If the car collecting hobby is ever going to elevate from hobby to history then the behaviour of the collectors will continue to mature into the way it is in the antiquities markets. The value of most antiquities is dramatically reduced when they are modified in any way from the original artist. In the collector car world the original manufacturer is considered the artist. Many now consider this value and the results of this particular auction put an exclamation mark on originality.

Caveat emptor.....the unrestored Gullwing was carefully prepared for auction....most of the interior was assembled from other remnants of cars that were restored, the end result was brilliant.....the price was magical.

Calling Steve Shauger.....please inspect my car before I buy it!!!!!!!

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

What is up, Fred! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Bloody cold Bruce.....it's been minus twenty for over a week.....looking forward to the auctions....I'll be down long enough to unthaw then come back

It's a dry cold though [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

going to try to get a Supercross race in but dang if they'd change the schedule I'd get three

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Phoenix Supercross is January 28th At University of Phoenix Stadium...not too far from my house. I don't work for the motorsports retailer any more...and they don't even do the Supercross parties like they used to...LOL [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Back to the regularly scheduled program about Survivor vs restored! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Well I love good survivor cars ............... especially restoring them ..... OH POOP I said it [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

We at Mascar Classics love restoring survivors because we can better document the car. We just purchased this 1973 SD 455 http://www.transamflorida.com/923.htm

Its a very low mile survivor and we will post some pictures of the car unassembled and cleaned up before the restoration starts. We were able to get all of the added undercoating off without damaging the original paint or markings on the underside of the car ........... you will see from the pictures its amazing. This is by far the cleanest car we have ever had to restore and its simply stunning how good this car is! We will make a post next week to show the bones of the car, and then we will not be posting any more due to the fact that the car will be unveiled at MCACN 2017.

Happy Sunday Funday everyone [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I love good survivor cars ............... especially restoring them ..... OH POOP I said it [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

We at Mascar Classics love restoring survivors because we can better document the car. We just purchased this 1973 SD 455 http://www.transamflorida.com/923.htm

Its a very low mile survivor and we will post some pictures of the car unassembled and cleaned up before the restoration starts. We were able to get all of the added undercoating off without damaging the original paint or markings on the underside of the car ........... you will see from the pictures its amazing. This is by far the cleanest car we have ever had to restore and its simply stunning how good this car is! We will make a post next week to show the bones of the car, and then we will not be posting any more due to the fact that the car will be unveiled at MCACN 2017.

Happy Sunday Funday everyone [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] </div></div>


Im sorry but that just seems ludicrous to me..

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

You would have to be crazy to restore that car!!!!!
How much better could it be????
Omg that's insane!!

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Its obvious why you posted what you did in this thread.. I am disappointed in myself for even taking the bait.. Keep doing what you are doing and make the rest of the survivors out there continue to climb in value.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Darrell,
I don’t know what you mean …. “It’s obvious why I posted”?

I posted here because I prefer to restore cars rather than keep them as a survivor. The SD is my personal car and will not be for sale. The car is amazing, but I like to drive my cars and it scares me to drive a car like this because although low miles are on it, it’s still 43 years old and I would hate to blow the motor or have something fail and ruin or hurt the car. I appreciate survivors, however I prefer a restored car I can drive and drive hard.

If I am going to consider the market …….. Well, the market for survivor cars is very small ….. very. I know people love them, and get upset if someone like me restores them, however facts are facts, and not very many people buy them.

If I offended you are anyone else, I am sorry, that was not my intension.

Wishing you all a great week.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Restoring a car that doesn't need restoring. Re-doing the mechanicals for better performance is one thing, can always be put back to original.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

RST, quite frankly there are many cars that need restoring, and should be restored. Taking a rare survivor not needing to be restored, and restoring it is blasphemy.

Regarding the survivor market being small, I disagree. Yes there's very few examples, but I know of many collectors interested in purchasing unrestored cars. As more and more of these time capsules get restored, they become rarer and rarer and we lose the connection with how these cars were built.

I love restored cars but not at the expense of sacrificing a true survivor. Yes it's your car and can do with it as you choose, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

I agree with Paceme.

A small market??? Really? I lost count of how many people tried to buy Enrico's SD Formula at MCACN. After a while I would just point to the 6' 8&quot; tall Enrico and say: &quot;You'll have to fight him for it.&quot;

Cleaning the undercoating and rust proofing off the bottom is ok with me but if you redo original paint that is in great shape to begin with, that's crazy.

There was a survivor white SD T/A at the 2013 MCACN that had a bad lifter and oil pump issues when I looked to buy it several years earlier. The new owner pulled the engine and rebuilt it but did not touch the outside patina on any of the engine parts. That was the way to do it right.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

I agree with pace me and Darrell but if you put out the money its yours to do as you please. if you placed two , lets say two copos one perfectly restored ( spending 50K to 100K or more ) and the other nice original paint, interior and with low miles ect I would take the survivor every time and I would pay more every time. the problem with restored you cant always know what you really have. may have been pulled out of a sink hole somewhere.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Hey guys, thank you for the input ……… this car was for sale for more than a year and nobody purchased it, and it was on EBay for more than 2 months …….. So I don’t really agree with you on the people lining up to purchase survivor cars …… or at least this one.

Nugeusa1 you make the point about the problem with a restored car “is you don’t really know what you are getting” … I completely agree, that is why I purchased this car …. I know exactly what I am getting, and we will restore it with full documentation with hundreds of pictures as well as dyno results on the motor, specs etc. So then, if I ever sell this car, I can disclose all work performed etc.

Njsteve, you make the point that you looked at a SD T/A at 2013 MCACN and the motor had some issues …. This SD was at MCACN last year and available …. It did not sell, and I will not take chances driving this car with its original equipment that has been sitting for years.

As for the condition of this car, it’s very nice, however, the paint is cracked all over the car, and there are several areas where the paint is worn through etc. Once again, this car was for sale for more than a year and nobody stepped up to purchase it ……. I did, we will restore it and make it as good as we possibly can and it will be at MCACN 2017, hope you all come by and take a look at the car.

I support all feelings and respect everyone’s opinion, and I would never tell someone they are doing wrong with their property. There are people on both sides of this discussion, however as I said, I purchased the car and we excited about us restoring it.

With Respect,

Scott

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Njsteve, you make the point that you looked at a SD T/A at 2013 MCACN and the motor had some issues …. This SD was at MCACN last year and available …. It did not sell, and I will not take chances driving this car with its original equipment that has been sitting for years.

</div></div>

Not to get off track but I tried to buy that other car (not yours) maybe 5 years ago but the seller sold it to the current owner before we came to an agreement. I was all excited to do the engine in the same fashion that it eventually wound up getting done. It was the car in the famous youtube &quot;barnfind superduty video&quot;. The funny thing is that I think the reason it was parked in the barn in the first place was because of the oil pump/bad lifter problem.

I remember seeing your car offered several times on ebay and other sites over the past few years. The dealer that had it wanted a ton of money for it which was why they had a hard time finding a buyer. It was advertised as an untouched 10,000 mile car but they tried waaay too hard to fluff it up for sale and went totally overboard. They wound up really altering the untouched components to the point that people began to wonder what was wrong (not that there was anything wrong) - replacing the entire exhaust system and various A/C parts (aftermarkt POA valve, expansion valve etc), throwing on reproduction bias ply tires, shock absorbers, and spraying all that glossy goop all over everything above the ground when they should have just steam cleaned the underside instead and left it at that.

Just promise you'll take off those home-made fender trim pieces that they cut out of original fender trim parts, and then drilled holes in the fenders to install them. Ugh! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Interesting car in that it came with whitewall radials from the factory. I see the original Uniroyal GR70x15 still in the trunk. Firestone 500 also made an exploding version in whitewall if you really want to live dangerously.

Can you tell me what the date on the starter is? Is it 1108436 with a date of 1B11 perhaps?

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Interesting comparison to the world of antiques and fine art. In Canadian law, the purchaser of an original artwork does not have the right to alter or modify that piece even though it it &quot;their property&quot;. Not suggesting that we need to use the law to protect survivor automobiles, but restoring a true survivor car makes as much sense as buying the Mona Lisa and then repainting it to straighten out her smile.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I love good survivor cars ............... especially restoring them ..... OH POOP I said it [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

We at Mascar Classics love restoring survivors because we can better document the car. We just purchased this 1973 SD 455 http://www.transamflorida.com/923.htm

Its a very low mile survivor and we will post some pictures of the car unassembled and cleaned up before the restoration starts. We were able to get all of the added undercoating off without damaging the original paint or markings on the underside of the car ........... you will see from the pictures its amazing. This is by far the cleanest car we have ever had to restore and its simply stunning how good this car is! We will make a post next week to show the bones of the car, and then we will not be posting any more due to the fact that the car will be unveiled at MCACN 2017.

Happy Sunday Funday everyone [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] </div></div>

I think I'm going to get sick

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

How can you better document a survivor by restoring it ?? To me thats ruining the history and integrity of that car . If it needs restoration
thats one thing . IMHO that Trans Am looked great as is ... KP

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Thanks for all the positive vibes guys ………..

This car was for sale for a long time, any one of you could have stepped up and purchased the car and kept it as is.

Steve, I think the car was priced very fair for what it is, try to find another one in this condition, and the restoration will be much easier. I am sure you will agree, this car will be an amazing restoration and will be worth far more than the asking price ........ and I can drive and enjoy it without worry. This is my car guys, I purchased it to keep and I want to be able to drive it often.

I will post some pictures on a new thread of the car as we disassemble it. Oh and as for being able to document the car ………… as we take it apart, clean it etc., we will document every single part and share it in its as original status, as we have done with several cars that we have restored in order to share that valuable information.

Happy Holidays everyone.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

RTS, seriously good luck with your resto, I don't have anything against restored cars. actually I'm glad that cars are restored and saved. you have an awesome car fix it the way you want and enjoy it, its good that people all don't want exactly the same things.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

And yes, it does have one of those 1108436 1B11-dated starters from two years before the car was built! Scott sent me a photo. Very cool.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Thank you very much for the &quot;Heads Up&quot; Steve .... we did not know this! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...sd_starter.png

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

It seems like no one did. In the end I'm kind of glad that Steve Shauger's crew dinged me on it because if he hadn't, I wouldn't have started digging. So far every unrestored car I've found (5 so far) has this bizarrely dated starter from a single batch made on a single day in February 1971! Even though the engines were all made in November 1972 that is still 21 months difference. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for all the positive vibes guys ………..

This car was for sale for a long time, any one of you could have stepped up and purchased the car and kept it as is.

Steve, I think the car was priced very fair for what it is, try to find another one in this condition, and the restoration will be much easier. I am sure you will agree, this car will be an amazing restoration and will be worth far more than the asking price ........ and I can drive and enjoy it without worry. This is my car guys, I purchased it to keep and I want to be able to drive it often.

I will post some pictures on a new thread of the car as we disassemble it. Oh and as for being able to document the car ………… as we take it apart, clean it etc., we will document every single part and share it in its as original status, as we have done with several cars that we have restored in order to share that valuable information.

Happy Holidays everyone.
</div></div>

There is a positive spin to this... the listing said &quot;This is the best original unrestored SD we have seen&quot; so somewhere someone is thanking you for restoring this car because his or her second best original unrestored SD just moved up to number one!

I have a difficult time believing that someone would pay more for this car in restored condition than others would pay for it as a survivor, even without factoring in the cost of the restoration. Who am I to say, because it's you spending the money....

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Do I get a ride when you are done Scott? I'm 'jonesing' for a ride in a SD455 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Helmut, [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Dead on brother!

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems like no one did. In the end I'm kind of glad that Steve Shauger's crew dinged me on it because if he hadn't, I wouldn't have started digging. So far every unrestored car I've found (5 so far) has this bizarrely dated starter from a single batch made on a single day in February 1971! Even though the engines were all made in November 1972 that is still 21 months difference. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif[/img] </div></div>

Steve, another example of anomalies in manufacturing back in those times. Once again, thank you very much for pointing this out, very valuable information.

Bruce, absolutely you can go for a ride, in fact, we will fly you and your family over to the shop after MCACN and you can take it out and drive them to lunch [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Scott....nope! No need for that. We appreciate the offer, though!

Since we're only a few hours away, We'll come and visit. We haven't been to SoCal in a while (Hopefully we'll get out there before MCACN of next year-actually shooting for next February) and need to visit with all the SoCal car crazy folks out there.

When the car (and you are ready) just let us know.

BTW, We'd let you guys drive [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img] that's good enough for me (us)!

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Nice of you to offer that to Cousin Brucey and family Scott.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Tell you what Bruce ....... you come by in February and we can show you and the family around Mascar and Sho-Air. After MCACN you are welcome to come for a ride anytime, and if the weather is nice at MCACN, we can go for a drive there [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

Sounds great Scott! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

I like that SD both ways, the way you bought it as is as long as it is safe and sound to use and I'm confident that I'm going to like it once it's MASCAR restored. My personal preference is an unrestored car to a restored one.......generally and in most cases and for a multitude of reasons.

Many of the so-called &quot;Survivors&quot; which exist today are what I call &quot;Revivors&quot; , which is a Survivor with restoration work. Some of the work is done so well that most would never know anything was ever done, including paint work.

Untouched and pristine original 'bench mark' / 'time capsule' cars are very few and far between.

On another sad note Scott's Dad just recently passed .........so please accept our condolences.

Re: Survivor vs Restored
 

While this may not have been the lowest mile muscle car I had ever discovered it was the closest to the day it left the factory / dealership when everything is taken into account.

The most original muscle car?