1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 sitting since 1983
Link for the article about this car from SuperChevy Mag...

http://www.superchevy.com/features/1604-...lot-since-1983/

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Proves, they are still out there. Great find!

Bill

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Barn find section at MCACN???

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I think that poor car deserves to be restored; I enjoy seeing cars in "as found" condition but enough is enough. Show it as found, document it's condition with pictures and then bring it back. JMO

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I agree Dave. A great restoration candidate, but IMO, certainly not nice enough to leave alone.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

This car is no secret,and the hype being projected by its cocky owner is not realistic.
It was advertised publically last year for 10k on the internet as well as other places local to the then owner Luis C.,which he deleted everything on the internet soon after the sale.It was constantly being bumped & bumped because there were no takers.The seller listed it as a 1970 L-78 Chevelle,and everyone knew it was a real 1970 L-78 Chevelle.I looked @ it,as well as others.It was sold to the current owner for 9K,who has an ego bigger then the sun.Now erroneously claiming it is only 1 of 24 existing out of 2144 ever made,because that's all Dale shows he has on file for his 1970 L-78 Chevelle registry,which isn't an accurate reflection of how many are still out there today.
There are many more still existing,yet Patrick Glenn Nichols refuses to believe that.He says he had offers of 20K,now 30K,yet now claims he's going to keep it.
It does not have it's original engine and the VIN tag is rusted through.
I and many others believe it is a real L-78 1970 Chevelle,and I agree with the statement about it needing to be restored pronto and not left as is,as every day it's rotting away a lil more & more.
The new owner,who is new to this show really needs to do his homework & get out of the way of this car.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I don't think Pat is all that "new" to the show.
I'd love to this at the barn finds also.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

He's shown he's new to the L-78 circles.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He's shown he's new to the L-78 circles. </div></div>
But not new to `70 Chevelles and LS6's, so really not that different.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I believe the administrator of this site should take a close look at you and what you bring to this site. Negativity. Im new to the game? Is 30yrs long enough for you?Working on a 1970, racing a 1970, studying a 1970, buying 1970s, selling 1970s, buying 1970 parts, selling 1970s parts, attending chevelle car shows every summer and I can go on. I never claimed to be the first at the or the only guy to be able to identify it. Thats proven and part of the beauty of it. Any idiot knows there are more than 27 in total existence. My statement said only 27 in the National Registry which requires sufficient documentation in order to be registered. Doesnt matter whether there are many more there currently is only 27 documented examples. Still a true statement. But your missing the real point here. I wasn't so new to this game that I only viewed this car as just a car. I knew it was much much more. It was the rarity plus THE STORY. Thats the difference between me and you. I had a vision of the story and had the savvy to bring it to life. That doesn't seem new to the game to me at all. Oh and btw my magazine friend said its one of the biggest stories of 2016. You had plenty of chances at the car but your negativity and possibly your inexperience is what your problem is. I dont appreciate you speaking badly about me when I do nothing but try to hype this hobby from the somewhat younger generation standpoint that these cars need to keep their iconic status. I hope you become more pleasant and say some nicer things on here. Trust me its your negative way of thinking is what holds you back. But YAY YAY YAY to the L78 story and thank you Luis for helping with the story.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

It deserves to be restored ... Its a shame to leave it that way

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

not restore it give me a break.That car is in need of a very expensive restoration.Is it worth it?The price of a correct restoration is very expensive as most of you know. And if you don't know do one and find out.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that poor car deserves to be restored; I enjoy seeing cars in &quot;as found&quot; condition but enough is enough. Show it as found, document it's condition with pictures and then bring it back. JMO </div></div>

&quot;but enough is enough.&quot; Sounds like you have &quot;barn-find&quot; fatigue! It's not the barn-finds, its the HYPE that accompanies them.

&quot;The Internet is ruining hot-rodding.&quot; --David Freiburger

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

So now I have a question ... Is that the original engine?

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the administrator of this site should take a close look at you and what you bring to this site. Negativity. Im new to the game? Is 30yrs long enough for you?Working on a 1970, racing a 1970, studying a 1970, buying 1970s, selling 1970s, buying 1970 parts, selling 1970s parts, attending chevelle car shows every summer and I can go on. I never claimed to be the first at the or the only guy to be able to identify it. Thats proven and part of the beauty of it. Any idiot knows there are more than 27 in total existence. My statement said only 27 in the National Registry which requires sufficient documentation in order to be registered. Doesnt matter whether there are many more there currently is only 27 documented examples. Still a true statement. But your missing the real point here. I wasn't so new to this game that I only viewed this car as just a car. I knew it was much much more. It was the rarity plus THE STORY. Thats the difference between me and you. I had a vision of the story and had the savvy to bring it to life. That doesn't seem new to the game to me at all. Oh and btw my magazine friend said its one of the biggest stories of 2016. You had plenty of chances at the car but your negativity and possibly your inexperience is what your problem is. I dont appreciate you speaking badly about me when I do nothing but try to hype this hobby from the somewhat younger generation standpoint that these cars need to keep their iconic status. I hope you become more pleasant and say some nicer things on here. Trust me its your negative way of thinking is what holds you back. But YAY YAY YAY to the L78 story and thank you Luis for helping with the story.
</div></div> You go Boy, tell it how it is

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Geoff Padgett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the administrator of this site should take a close look at you and what you bring to this site. Negativity. Im new to the game? Is 30yrs long enough for you?Working on a 1970, racing a 1970, studying a 1970, buying 1970s, selling 1970s, buying 1970 parts, selling 1970s parts, attending chevelle car shows every summer and I can go on. I never claimed to be the first at the or the only guy to be able to identify it. Thats proven and part of the beauty of it. Any idiot knows there are more than 27 in total existence. My statement said only 27 in the National Registry which requires sufficient documentation in order to be registered. Doesnt matter whether there are many more there currently is only 27 documented examples. Still a true statement. But your missing the real point here. I wasn't so new to this game that I only viewed this car as just a car. I knew it was much much more. It was the rarity plus THE STORY. Thats the difference between me and you. I had a vision of the story and had the savvy to bring it to life. That doesn't seem new to the game to me at all. Oh and btw my magazine friend said its one of the biggest stories of 2016. You had plenty of chances at the car but your negativity and possibly your inexperience is what your problem is. I dont appreciate you speaking badly about me when I do nothing but try to hype this hobby from the somewhat younger generation standpoint that these cars need to keep their iconic status. I hope you become more pleasant and say some nicer things on here. Trust me its your negative way of thinking is what holds you back. But YAY YAY YAY to the L78 story and thank you Luis for helping with the story.
</div></div> You go Boy, tell it how it is </div></div>

For the record....I see Patrick every year at a National Chevelle Show along with his brothers.....all 3 are great Chevelle enthusiasts and just darn good car guys. Just a 5 minute talk with Patrick and anyone can tell how passionate he is about the '70 Chevelle. HOW DO YOU FAULT SOMEONE FOR THAT?
THIS BASHING AND NEGATIVELY IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.....Mr70 you owe Patrick an apology.

Patrick, congrats on the Super Chevy Ink....well done.

Dan

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

&quot;THIS BASHING AND NEGATIVELY IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR&quot;.........Agree 100% Dan.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Thanks Rick, Chuck, and Dan for helping me out. I dont have a problem with Mr70 and wouldn't know him if I saw him. Just dont understand why he would want to be rude to me. Its a great day for Chevelle guys when these stories hit. I busted my rear to bring this story to life for ALL of us Chevelle guys to put another feather in our mainstream media hat. The mopar guys probably dont act like that. They push every story in my speculation. Anyway for the record yes my 2 brothers played a major part in this car as well but didnt catch any ink. Younger brother is a financial partner and the older brother allows us to store the car in his super cool garage. Both just as passionate about chevelles as me. My partners in crime. I try to hype these cars not myself. Again like I wrote on my youtube page, i used to lay in bed sleeping with car magazines wishing for a 1970 Chevelle when I was 14. Ok. I know how awesome I thought all of these musclecars were so tough. I remember all the feelings they gave me as a kid. If we dont pass that on to even just a few we are screwing up. So yes I hype them because these cars are like nothing else in life. They are truly awesome and from a time when things were truly awesome. So yay again to the L78 blowing up the media.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the administrator of this site should take a close look at you and what you bring to this site. Negativity. Im new to the game? Is 30yrs long enough for you?Working on a 1970, racing a 1970, studying a 1970, buying 1970s, selling 1970s, buying 1970 parts, selling 1970s parts, attending chevelle car shows every summer and I can go on. I never claimed to be the first at the or the only guy to be able to identify it. Thats proven and part of the beauty of it. Any idiot knows there are more than 27 in total existence. My statement said only 27 in the National Registry which requires sufficient documentation in order to be registered. Doesnt matter whether there are many more there currently is only 27 documented examples. Still a true statement. But your missing the real point here. I wasn't so new to this game that I only viewed this car as just a car. I knew it was much much more. It was the rarity plus THE STORY. Thats the difference between me and you. I had a vision of the story and had the savvy to bring it to life. That doesn't seem new to the game to me at all. Oh and btw my magazine friend said its one of the biggest stories of 2016. You had plenty of chances at the car but your negativity and possibly your inexperience is what your problem is. I dont appreciate you speaking badly about me when I do nothing but try to hype this hobby from the somewhat younger generation standpoint that these cars need to keep their iconic status. I hope you become more pleasant and say some nicer things on here. Trust me its your negative way of thinking is what holds you back. But YAY YAY YAY to the L78 story and thank you Luis for helping with the story.
</div></div>

Unfortunately Patrick, there is always one. It reminds me of the old saying, better to shut your mouth and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
It's a fantastic story and well done on having the stones to go out and get the L78 whilst others procrastinated. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The mopar guys probably dont act like that. </div></div>

Well now, that's a shot that didn't need to be taken. &quot;Mopar guys&quot; are every bit as proud of their finds, and many are BUSTING THEIR BUTTS as well to bring info on rare Mopars to the &quot;mainstream media&quot;.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Go on, admit it.... the fact that this Chevelle is in a relic state tends to stir up conversation. Every restorer would welcome the opportunity to restore this car because original parts remain in place, and original finishes are visible for replication/restoration. Similarly, every preservationist would leave this car alone. Interestingly, both groups would be ALL-OVER this car looking at every detail if they had the chance.... at least, for so long as it remains a relic. It is the owner's choice whether to restore the car or not. Judging by the interest this car has already generated, I wouldn't spend a load of money only to get less attention.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Hey 69hurstsc. My comment was complimentary towards mopar guys. I said i believe they dont act like that meaning they dont bash each other when something good happens. Just a simple observation and totally speculative. But positive towards those guys. The thing is its just not in my make up to hate on or take stabs. Im a congratulater not a hater. I grew up with 2 brothers nearly my same age. You got whipped into shape for that kind of behavior where i come from. It was cosidered really disrespectful. Anyways sorry you misinterpreted my comment and YAY again for the L78 blowing up.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Honestly, if this car crossed my path for 10K, I would jump on it and set my pocket on fire pulling the money out. Who wouldn't?

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Copy that. Totally misread the comment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey 69hurstsc. My comment was complimentary towards mopar guys. I said i believe they dont act like that meaning they dont bash each other when something good happens. Just a simple observation and totally speculative. But positive towards those guys. The thing is its just not in my make up to hate on or take stabs. Im a congratulater not a hater. I grew up with 2 brothers nearly my same age. You got whipped into shape for that kind of behavior where i come from. It was cosidered really disrespectful. Anyways sorry you misinterpreted my comment and YAY again for the L78 blowing up.</div></div> [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Do LS-5 cars generate this kind of buzz? I'm not as dialed into the whole 1970 Chevelle SS scene. There was a 1 owner, survivor LS-5 car that was on Craigslist here in MN last year. It was listed under 20K and didn't generate a single thread on here.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Solid lifters &gt; hydraulic lifters

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postsedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Geoff Padgett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the administrator of this site should take a close look at you and what you bring to this site. Negativity. Im new to the game? Is 30yrs long enough for you?Working on a 1970, racing a 1970, studying a 1970, buying 1970s, selling 1970s, buying 1970 parts, selling 1970s parts, attending chevelle car shows every summer and I can go on. I never claimed to be the first at the or the only guy to be able to identify it. Thats proven and part of the beauty of it. Any idiot knows there are more than 27 in total existence. My statement said only 27 in the National Registry which requires sufficient documentation in order to be registered. Doesnt matter whether there are many more there currently is only 27 documented examples. Still a true statement. But your missing the real point here. I wasn't so new to this game that I only viewed this car as just a car. I knew it was much much more. It was the rarity plus THE STORY. Thats the difference between me and you. I had a vision of the story and had the savvy to bring it to life. That doesn't seem new to the game to me at all. Oh and btw my magazine friend said its one of the biggest stories of 2016. You had plenty of chances at the car but your negativity and possibly your inexperience is what your problem is. I dont appreciate you speaking badly about me when I do nothing but try to hype this hobby from the somewhat younger generation standpoint that these cars need to keep their iconic status. I hope you become more pleasant and say some nicer things on here. Trust me its your negative way of thinking is what holds you back. But YAY YAY YAY to the L78 story and thank you Luis for helping with the story.
</div></div> You go Boy, tell it how it is </div></div>

For the record....I see Patrick every year at a National Chevelle Show along with his brothers.....all 3 are great Chevelle enthusiasts and just darn good car guys. Just a 5 minute talk with Patrick and anyone can tell how passionate he is about the '70 Chevelle. HOW DO YOU FAULT SOMEONE FOR THAT?
THIS BASHING AND NEGATIVELY IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.....Mr70 you owe Patrick an apology.

Patrick, congrats on the Super Chevy Ink....well done.

Dan </div></div>

Well I agree that the one particular post wasn't necessary and was in fact a personal attack. Unfortunately I just found this thread and now there are many post following which reference Mr70's post. If Patrick or Rick want the posts deleted let me know. I can lock the thread or remove all from M70's posts and start from there. I could also leave it as is because there is a lot of supportive posts as well.

The personal attack was unnecessary and won't be tolerated.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postsedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Geoff Padgett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cranberry70SSL34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the administrator of this site should take a close look at you and what you bring to this site. Negativity. Im new to the game? Is 30yrs long enough for you?Working on a 1970, racing a 1970, studying a 1970, buying 1970s, selling 1970s, buying 1970 parts, selling 1970s parts, attending chevelle car shows every summer and I can go on. I never claimed to be the first at the or the only guy to be able to identify it. Thats proven and part of the beauty of it. Any idiot knows there are more than 27 in total existence. My statement said only 27 in the National Registry which requires sufficient documentation in order to be registered. Doesnt matter whether there are many more there currently is only 27 documented examples. Still a true statement. But your missing the real point here. I wasn't so new to this game that I only viewed this car as just a car. I knew it was much much more. It was the rarity plus THE STORY. Thats the difference between me and you. I had a vision of the story and had the savvy to bring it to life. That doesn't seem new to the game to me at all. Oh and btw my magazine friend said its one of the biggest stories of 2016. You had plenty of chances at the car but your negativity and possibly your inexperience is what your problem is. I dont appreciate you speaking badly about me when I do nothing but try to hype this hobby from the somewhat younger generation standpoint that these cars need to keep their iconic status. I hope you become more pleasant and say some nicer things on here. Trust me its your negative way of thinking is what holds you back. But YAY YAY YAY to the L78 story and thank you Luis for helping with the story.
</div></div> You go Boy, tell it how it is </div></div>

For the record....I see Patrick every year at a National Chevelle Show along with his brothers.....all 3 are great Chevelle enthusiasts and just darn good car guys. Just a 5 minute talk with Patrick and anyone can tell how passionate he is about the '70 Chevelle. HOW DO YOU FAULT SOMEONE FOR THAT?
THIS BASHING AND NEGATIVELY IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.....Mr70 you owe Patrick an apology.

Patrick, congrats on the Super Chevy Ink....well done.

Dan </div></div>

Well I agree that the one particular post wasn't necessary and was in fact a personal attack. Unfortunately I just found this thread and now there are many post following which reference Mr70's post. If Patrick or Rick want the posts deleted let me know. I can lock the thread or remove all from M70's posts and start from there. I could also leave it as is because there is a lot of supportive posts as well.

The personal attack was unnecessary and won't be tolerated. </div></div>I apologize if I offended anyone as well my post was meant to support Patrick

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I vote to leave the thread alone.....what is the point of removing it.....for every time someone offends someone.....knowing that the thread will be locked or deleted, gives the impression, one can say whatever they wish, because they know the thread will be locked or deleted.

Let's all play nice and STOP the personal attacks.....I mean come on, it's a 1970 Chevelle guy attacking another 1970 Chevelle guy.....Childs Play.

Dan

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I'm still wondering why it took so long for this car to sell at what I would consider to be a very cheap price. No disrespect, just curious.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: scuncio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still wondering why it took so long for this car to sell at what I would consider to be a very cheap price. No disrespect, just curious.</div></div>

I was wondering the same thing.... If anyone called me with a car like that for $9,000 - $10,000, I would be all over it. Usually, you think of a car like that with a cheap price like that being a private sale, not an advertised sale.

I think the car is a steal at $10k. I don't care if you'd be underwater after restoring it, you'd have a great car. I am probably underwater on all my restorations, but then again, I am not looking to sell them, but rather to enjoy them, so who cares...

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postsedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For the record....I see Patrick every year at a National Chevelle Show along with his brothers.....all 3 are great Chevelle enthusiasts and just darn good car guys. Just a 5 minute talk with Patrick and anyone can tell how passionate he is about the '70 Chevelle. HOW DO YOU FAULT SOMEONE FOR THAT?
THIS BASHING AND NEGATIVELY IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.....Mr70 you owe Patrick an apology.

Patrick, congrats on the Super Chevy Ink....well done.

Dan </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">x2 I first met Patrick in 2003 and his brothers in 04 couldnt ask for a nicer bunch of guys to talk Chevelles with.</span>

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

It's great that there are younger guys that are into these cars! 70 Chevelles are bitchin', no matter what model they are. My nephew Taylor totally enjoys his 70 with the 468...and he just turned 21.

Congrats again on scoring the L78-I still think it would be cool to see at MCACN [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Ahh.. There are two sides to every story. I like that Mr70 calls it like it is... Do I believe that he should have posted this on an OPEN forum.. Maybe NOT, But there is a lot more to this story that MOST of us don't know.. And I will leave it at that !!
The &quot;MOF&quot;

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

It's easy to &quot;call it like it is&quot; when your tapping away into a keyboard. Most seem to not have the same temerity to plead the case when someone is standing in front of them. Seems easier to snipe from the sidelines and disappear, as is the pattern.
Lets move on, eh? This place is better than that.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

Yeah..it's over..move on..let the mods or Charley do what they do, and let's have some fun without the bickering..it sucks..and the world is watching

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

It's easy to &quot;call it like it is&quot; when your tapping away into a keyboard. Most seem to not have the same temerity to plead the case when someone is standing in front of them. Seems easier to snipe from the sidelines and disappear, as is the pattern.

Great observation,and right on. .

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SeattleCarGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=scuncio] I am probably underwater on all my restorations, but then again, I am not looking to sell them, but rather to enjoy them, so who cares... </div></div>

Amen.

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I'd like to see this wrapped up. Mr70 has been posting on here forever and a day, and I've never found him to be a loose cannon of any type. This exchange obviously touched a nerve in him and created a moment of bad judgement, but I'd hope the public shaming can subside so Mr70 has an opportunity to acknowledge the overstep and we move on without losing any good forum contributors. My $.02

Re: 1970 Chevelle SS396 L78 Car Found
 

I had a 70 SS that had the VIN tag rusted away too, I felt it severely affected the value of the car (and MY 70 SS had a story too, think Nike and LA Raiders quarterback owner from back in the day, CA personalized plate was a blue and yellow one, &quot;NIKE&quot;), yes the car was silver with black stripes ...