1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<span style="text-decoration: underline">I spent quite a bit of time looking into the EO mystery as presented only to be too late to get in before the lock.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What got me thinking is three statements made about the car over at team Camaro in 2012 as follows:</span>

The Restorer said: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;At the time of the appraisal we looked there and behind a door panel and both places looked silver&quot;.

&quot;Later on after tearing the vinyl top off it looked more reddish silver (look at the photo earlier in the post) but i didn't think much of it&quot;.

&quot;Then after getting the story from Clem i started to look harder, and found the color under the tar on top of the saddle bag area, on the wiper transmission, on the front inside edge of the fender's, on the heads of some of the door hinge bolts, and on the tail pan underneath the bondo&quot;. </span>

A person replying said: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;Whatever you found on the wiper transmission is not original. Was installed after paint; never had overspray&quot;.</span>

Another person then replied: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;Brad - understand your dilemma. Any chance that the car was resprayed Evening Orchid over the Cortez Silver soon after delivery, hence why original owner may have thought it was EO from the Dealership? Would also explain why no EO under roofrail w/strips, and the overspray on the wiper trans arms&quot;....</span>
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

With a picture of the car I consulted with two Norwood Production Superintendents that were in plant in 1969:


<span style="font-weight: bold">First up Fisher Body</span>



Q: Tell Me about special paint cars?

A. We hated them a real pain in the ass to build.

Q. Why?

A. All of our in plant chemistry was engineered, meaning primers were designed to work for color match with approved sourced paints. Anything else was out in the wild.

Q Can you expand on that?

A. Yea, the SP cars usually used Jobber grade paint that was locally sourced. Complicating matters was that it was a pot job, which interrupted the normal function of the line and with Union classification was normally done with ARO's. Two guys - one on the right and one on the left hand spraying the paint -- dragging pots.

Q What about color match?

A. Most of the time one side of the car did not match the other especially with the lighter colors. One guy would spray it light, the other guy would spray it heavy, coverage and paint color was dependent on how the paint worked with the primer. Some better some not so good. There was no chemistry validation... . In a production setting we relied on engineered processes that confidence was not there all the time on a SP job.

Q. Who mixed/tinted the paint?

A Paint shop. Color chips by eye or we could get it premixed by a local jobber.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Next Chevrolet Chassis side</span>

Q: Tell Me about special paint cars?

A. Pain in the ass.

Q. Why?

A. Sheetmetal match was nearly impossible.

Q how did you build them?

A. Sheetmetal was specified install in primer.

Q So the front end met the car in Primer?

A. Yes and built out on the final line in primer.

Q. How was the car finished?

A. Car was sent to AGR where the trim was removed from the front end to the fullest extent practicable, and then the paint Fisher left in the trunk was used to match the front end in. This was again a problem as we had to match Fisher's Primer to get the top coat to match and often they forgot to give us the primer. Remember we were two separate divisions then. Next was the oven where we did the best we could to get reflow and a gloss match but there was only so much we could do. These paint jobs were often terrible with high customer dissatisfaction.

Q. What about overspray in areas under the hood- at AGR?

A. Sure. Think Earl Sheib quality. The hood was popped to get the edges..so yes they taped it off the best they could but these were done very fast.

Q. Did the AGR Process change much through the years?

A. A bit when we switched to Towveyor, but we still painted cars in AGR one after the other right up to close of the plant.

Conclusion:

<span style="text-decoration: underline">The Picture Below is AGR in 1982. In this case I believe William and Jerry saw a bad quality paint job. I believe Clem and his wife were the recipients of a bad quality paint job that was likely a bit on the light side. I believe all parties have acted in good faith and the recollections of these two workers place this situation in proper prospective. The car in question was EO just a light EQ and poorly mixed, poorly matched, and perhaps on the inconsistent side in coloration to boot. The wiper transmission overspray as reported by the restorer is consistent with an AGR front end paint job</span>

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Thanks Phil, very interesting. Never picked up on the wiper trans OS when reading those older threads.

Mike

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Awesome research,but I'm confused about these quotes vs. what you followed up with.

~Restorer:&quot;Then after getting the story from Clem i started to look harder,and found the color under the tar on top of the saddle bag area,on the wiper transmission,on the front inside edge of the fender's,on the heads of some of the door hinge bolts,and on the tail pan underneath the bondo&quot;.

~Team Camaro:&quot;Whatever you found on the wiper transmission is not original.Was installed after paint; never had overspray&quot;.

~Phil:&quot;The wiper transmission overspray as reported by the restorer is consistent with an AGR front end paint job.&quot;

So was the wiper transmission installed before or after they painted it?

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Rick,

Trying to abide as to Charley's wishes to the fullest extent that I can. He does not want this thread going full retard like the last one did.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I hope the people who believe the car was painted EO at the dealer as mrs clem worked there are not allowed to vote in our elections as they are certifiably nuts. I can not understand why the experts can not admit they made a mistake after all the evidence came out.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I know in the past I have spoken in absolutes on the wiper transmission issue... I was wrong.

Thanks for taking the time to do the research on this Phil.

To answer Mr70

The wiper transmission was installed on cars by fisher was after the body was painted, however in the case of SPL Paint the front ends were installed as fully assembled primed units then in repair booth they were stripped of trim to a practical point taped and painted reassembled and finished.

Normally we say as an absolute that over spray on a wiper transmission would not have happened at the factory as this goes to show you, the only absolute is there are no absolutes.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Correct... Rick I did not answer in detail as I was diving to the store.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

OK,that makes sense.
..to both of you. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope the people who believe the car was painted EO at the dealer as mrs clem worked there are not allowed to vote in our elections as they are certifiably nuts. I can not understand why the experts can not admit they made a mistake after all the evidence came out. </div></div>

Here we go again. Can we please keep this topic about the special paint procedure and keep the hate out of it. I too have a -B paint code car and I would like this tread to stay open so I can learn more.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I'm still a lover of EO..

Being an early 60's car fan and the significance of it being an SS only color at the time ads to my opened sense of taste.

I would love to have a 1965 Nova SS 327 300 HP speed EO car.

So..... with that said.....

Do we have more lovers or haters at this point?

Oh by the way... My vote counts as two!

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Jeez Phil. Didn't we just here in the thread that shall not be named you had never met anyone who had painted a car at the factory with a paint pot? Now all of a sudden its normal practice for special order paint. Selective memory, or pot stirring.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Clem please give it a break....

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeez Phil. Didn't we just here in the thread that shall not be named you had never met anyone who had painted a car at the factory with a paint pot? Now all of a sudden its normal practice for special order paint. Selective memory, or pot stirring. </div></div>

Mark,

Here is what I said in the now locked thread:

William,

Have you ever met a guy from the Fisher Body division at Norwood who sprayed out of a paint pot?

This was a question to stimulate intelligent discussion. My questions were ignored.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Thank you, great info [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Phil, thank you for sharing all of your research, both on the forums and at the shows.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Just goes to show that never say never w/these old cars !! I remember seeing judges at the Camaro Nationals arguing over which way the alternator brackets went on a 67 Z... for many years they never made a Z-28 vert either !! Neat info !!!

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Thanks for getting input from the guys who were at the plant Phil.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Very interesting to say the least. This info confirms some of the stuff I posted in the other thread. My old Buick with special paint was one of the worst factory applied paint jobs I've ever seen; now I know how and why. Also confirms the overspray I spoke of, and the good possibility of a mis-match. So the front clip was installed by the time it went in for the spray, but without color?!? The front end on that GS REALLY didn't match, but maybe some special paint cars do.....they just might not match side to side! Great information to say the least. Thanks for digging it up and posting!!!
I hope (also like I said in the other post) that all involved can take a breather and look at this stuff a little more open-minded. Things were WAY different back then in the car business.......

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

The one concept I like to preach in this hobby is EVOLUTION. It is constantly changing and for the better. What was once considered a fantastic and correct restoration is now average or even considered a custom. With the knowledge we have on part numbers, castings, date ranges and now more technical aspects such as processes and procedures the pool of information is vast. Things change as new information and documents are brought to light. A lot of what was believed to be correct has been debunked, or at the vary least proven to have multiple variations. We can all learn a lot more moving forward by keeping an open mind. Remember when undercarriages were all black, COPO's didn't exist and they never ever made 427 Chevelles.... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img]

Thanks Phil for understanding and using the resources at hand to dig a bit deeper... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/worship.gif[/img]

BIG

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firstgenaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know in the past I have spoken in absolutes on the wiper transmission issue... I was wrong.

Thanks for taking the time to do the research on this Phil.

To answer Mr70

The wiper transmission was installed on cars by fisher was after the body was painted, however in the case of SPL Paint the front ends were installed as fully assembled primed units then in repair booth they were stripped of trim to a practical point taped and painted reassembled and finished.

Normally we say as an absolute that over spray on a wiper transmission would not have happened at the factory as this goes to show you, the only absolute is there are no absolutes.
</div></div>


Just trying to learn and understand. When they added the striping on say a Z were those done off line as well or in Chevrolets paint booth? Why or how would paint get on the wiper trans unless they forgot to spray the cowl area on the fisher side? Just trying to determine how overspray ended up on the wiper trans in one spot on my 68 Z. LOS car also..

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2d2566ff.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps889ec93f.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7d9a8849.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...psf2c95d2b.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9e5c3a82.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps278f1cc1.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Darrell,

Anything I could add is speculation, however LA was already TOWVEYOR for assembly so just like 1982 at NOR if the car was touched up at AGR then blending operations would likely be subject to the same kinds of human issues. In this case the potential for a paint blending operation at the factory where the masking portion of the element was less than adequate.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Cowl area was painted stripe color on a Z28 by fisher on their side of the plant (at Norwood) when they painted the cowl vent, trunk and spoiler stripes. wiper transmission was installed by Chevy on their side (at Norwood) and should never have paint on them (special paint color cars possibly excluded), unless there was a repair done to the paint after the car was finished (or at least the wipers were installed). Also note that GMs paint specifications called for the inner area of the wiper well to be blacked out after the cowl area was painted white so the wipers arms would be less noticable, and that most cars never had that done to them.

Please note that this thread is discussing NON-standard paint color cars only, not special paint instruction cars which is probably what 99% of the - - tag cars were.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Thanks to the OP for posting this. It's always interesting to learn how things were really done in production.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

If I am not mistaken the wiper cowls were striped at Fisher at the same time the deck was striped. HOWEVER given the information Phil has uncovered I would (IF POSSIBLE)check to see if there is a variation in original stripe color front to rear... if so I would venture to guess the possibility exists that the wiper cowl was repainted to match the hood stripes in the touch-up booth.

FWIW The stripe color front to rear looked off on the original paint black RS/Z, not by much but my opinion was the front looked like Ermine and the rear like Dover. The Wiper cowl stripe color match matters less on a Cowl Hood car than a flat hood because of the way the hood overhangs the wiper cowl.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Darrell,

Anything I could add is speculation, however LA was already TOWVEYOR for assembly so just like 1982 at NOR if the car was touched up at AGR then blending operations would likely be subject to the same kinds of human issues. In this case the potential for a paint blending operation at the factory where the masking portion of the element was less than adequate. </div></div>


Thanks.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firstgenaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am not mistaken the wiper cowls were striped at Fisher at the same time the deck was striped. HOWEVER given the information Phil has uncovered I would (IF POSSIBLE)check to see if there is a variation in original stripe color front to rear... if so I would venture to guess the possibility exists that the wiper cowl was repainted to match the hood stripes in the touch-up booth.

FWIW The stripe color front to rear looked off on the original paint black RS/Z, not by much but my opinion was the front looked like Ermine and the rear like Dover. The Wiper cowl stripe color match matters less on a Cowl Hood car than a flat hood because of the way the hood overhangs the wiper cowl. </div></div>

Good points.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem please give it a break.... </div></div> no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

people who have never ordered a new special paint car and had it delivered to the dealership should not be posting about what and how it happens.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">people who have never ordered a new special paint car and had it delivered to the dealership should not be posting about what and how it happens. </div></div>

Im sorry Clem but what does ordering a special paint car have to do with how the procedures were done at the plant during the production. The comments provided above are from people that have talked with plant workers or were in engineering from GM when the cars were new.. That to me are 2 totally different aspects.. Just because you ordered a car doesnt mean you knew how it was assembled in a production setting unless you were there on the line when the car was coming down..

Chill out a little.. We are all here to learn (or at least I know I am).

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

There has been more relevant information brought forth in a few posts here than in 100 pages of other threads... can everyone please refrain from personal jabs I'd like to keep this one open and figure out some more information.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. [/quote]

That's the great thing right, Clem? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars!

Keith Seymore posted some excellent, experienced-based, info on the special paint process earlier, btw.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. </div></div>

That's the great thing, right? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars! [/quote] that is what is p-----g me off people keep telling me what I had or did not have or why it was possible or not possible.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I agree. Thank you Phil for all of the research you do, the information is priceless. The guys who worked there are getting up in years, soon this information will be lost forever.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">people who have never ordered a new special paint car and had it delivered to the dealership should not be posting about what and how it happens. </div></div>

Im sorry Clem but what does ordering a special paint car have to do with how the procedures were done at the plant during the production. The comments provided above are from people that have talked with plant workers or were in engineering from GM when the cars were new.. That to me are 2 totally different aspects.. Just because you ordered a car doesnt mean you knew how it was assembled in a production setting unless you were there on the line when the car was coming down..

Chill out a little.. We are all here to learn (or at least I know I am).

</div></div>someone said there should be no paint on the wiper parts and since the restorer said there was EO there it had to be a dealer repaint. everything you read here is not gospel. there are too many opinions and little facts

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPEEDYB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you, great info [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif[/img] </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil, thank you for sharing all of your research, both on the forums and at the shows. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for getting input from the guys who were at the plant Phil. </div></div>

x1000. Thanks, Phil, for running that down and writing it up.

There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

K

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

K
</div></div>

Apparently not only in production - still a PITA on automotive forums 46 yrs later! LOL

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

K
[/quote] and GM only charged $15 to $25

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

K
</div></div>

Apparently not only in production - still a PITA on automotive forums 46 yrs later! LOL </div></div>only if you believe the self appointed experts and not the original owner. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I am the one who stated the wiper transmission over spray absolute... I have also stated I was wrong that the only absolute is there are no absolutes. The wiper transmission was installed after the body was painted so barring touch up or mismatch they should not have over spray.
Previously no one had the information that front ends on special paint cars were installed primed and then de-trimmed and painted. This formerly unknown process was brought to light through this thread, yes the discussion was spurred by your vehicle however before this information was brought to light the only known way to have paint on the wiper transmission was a dealer touch up or repaint.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. </div></div>

That's the great thing right, Clem? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars!

Keith Seymore posted some excellent, experienced-based, info on the special paint process earlier, btw. [/quote]how about a 74 chevy pickup with a 482 cu inch BBC with aluminum heads, headers,corvette cam,850 holley and a 400 turbo with 3.70 gears that would scare the hell out of corvettes. used to street race them with dirt bikes or a snowmobile in the bed for traction. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img] had 2 22 gallon fuel tanks because it need them.