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Little engines that can
Thought some here might find this interesting.
The oft-maligned 283 SB Chebbie gettin' it done. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] |
Re: Little engines that can
Great article...I always love reading about the 283...for many of us this was our first V8! Those little motors had a special sound that I will always remember. A lot of my buddies had a car with a 283 back in the day...my favorite was a 1964 El Camino with a 283/2bbl, dual exhaust, 3 spd on the floor...I learned how to drive a std. shift with that car. It was painted white with chrome slots and black vinyl cover on the bed...that was a long time ago [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
wilma |
Re: Little engines that can
Got a real soft spot in my heart for those little 283's. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]
If I may share an amusing personal anecdote; The very first engine I rebuilt was a 283. My grandmother had a rotted `58 Chevy Brookwood wagon that she gave me when I was 13 years old. I didn't even own any 1/2" drive tools at the time, just a 3/8" socket set and basic wrenches. I managed to get the top half off of the engine (after struggling for several days to get the heads off, only to have the local machine shop inform me of the 8 bolts hiding under the exhaust manifolds [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) and the camshaft out by myself, but I was stymied on how I was going to get the engine out of the car--I didn't have access to an engine hoist. So, I did what any other 13 year-old neophyte mechanic would do...(or not)..I hack-sawed the core support out of the car, disconnected everything from the trans (the old cast iron Powerglide mind you), hooked a chain to the deck surface via the head bolts, slid a piece of plywood between the balancer and the bottom of the core support, and my father drug it out pulling it with our `65 Cutlass. Redneck?...you bet'cha. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] If "necessity is the mother of invention", then redneck ingenuity must be the father. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] Anyhow, I managed to drag the lump home, got it dis-assembled and off to the local machine shop. There weren't funds to do a full-fledged rebuild, so we just hot tanked the block, honed it and stabbed in new cam bearings. Sloooowly, we pieced together a rebuild kit; first rings & bearings, a new rope seal, a timing set and oil pump. I re-used the original cam & lifters (not knowing the lifters were supposed to be kept in order), and not knowing any better, installed a pair of rebuilt 350 large chamber heads. The compression ratio must've been pitiful. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] It took me over 2 years to get that engine built, and by the time I turned 16 I had it finished. That's when I bought my first car, the POS `67 SS Chevelle featured on my website. I couldn't bring myself to drop the 283 into the car--I desperately wanted a big block, so I traded the rebuilt 283 to a neighbor who had a `71-`72 GMC Sprint that he'd just pulled a good 402 out of. He had the 283 in and running in no time, and informed me that it ran great and got more than double the gas mileage of the 402 (which is why the 402 came out). He drove it for at least a couple more years before he moved away. I never did get that 402 into my Chevelle. |
Re: Little engines that can
That 283 is getting it done...11.571...WOW !
BIG |
Re: Little engines that can
Yep...and "only" 373 HP! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]
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Re: Little engines that can
Cast crank at 8000 rpm? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] How can that be.
Those "extra" holes in the bottom of the bores are also quite the trick. |
Re: Little engines that can
Yep, those Stocker dudes leave no <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">pebble</span></span> unturned in their quest for every last ounce of power & performance they can find.
Cast cranks are lighter than forged, and with proper prep will live at those power levels just fine. Those crankcase balance passages are very "LS" in their origins. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] As I always say..."find 10 places to find 2 HP and what have you found?" |
Re: Little engines that can
That's a great 283 story.
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Re: Little engines that can
Call me dumb, but I don't know how 373hp can run mid 11s in a '66 Chevelle? No matter what's done to the engine, 373hp is still 373hp.
Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] |
Re: Little engines that can
Verne is right....I think somebody was "under reporting" the power of this mouse. Perhaps Eric can shed some light since he added the little winky guy [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] to his post next to the hp figure?
wilma |
Re: Little engines that can
I'll bet about half of the reason that Chevelle runs as well as it does is that it's not quite the porker most people would expect it to be. Less weight means you go fast on tiny horsepower, but 373 horses out of a 230 horse rated 283 is nothing to sneeze at. Kudo's to the owners and engine builders on the super low et.
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Re: Little engines that can
The power figures are legit. The wink was a nod to the efficiency of the package, that's all. When the vehicle itself is scienced out to the "nth" it doesn't take that much power to run quickly.
I have a friend with a Fox body Mustang that used to be a magazine project car. At the starting line it weighs right around 3000 lbs. The engine is a ridiculously mild carbureted 302, and at the time it was backed up with a prepped OEM 5 speed and a Ford Motorsports Dana rear with a 4.5X gear. On 26X9 tires it ran 11.80's at 110-ish. On a chassis dyno it barely cracked 300 HP. (It now runs a prepped C4 and is a tad slower due to other issues) Remember, stock eliminator cars literally leave nothing to chance, every inch of the car is scienced out to provide the most efficient use of power possible. If you took that engine & trans out and put it into a similar weight streeter it would probably be at least 2 seconds slower just because the car doesn't work as well. FWIW, another well-known racer I know once ran a 283 in Super Stock trim--i.e. fully ported/welded heads, roller cam, any intake (but OEM carb), every trick in the book internally, etc. and it made ~480. |
Re: Little engines that can
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what ya' see ...
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Re: Little engines that can
To be that quick with 373hp, the Chevelle must be on the light side (per NHRA) and they REALLY have the car's chassis combination set up perfect. Great article!
Kurt [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] On a side note, Jerry Frailey has a friend running a 80's Malibu with a 305 in Stock Eliminator and I believe he's in the low 11's......Crazy. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif[/img] |
Re: Little engines that can
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The power figures are legit. The wink was a nod to the efficiency of the package, that's all. When the vehicle itself is scienced out to the "nth" it doesn't take that much power to run quickly.
I have a friend with a Fox body Mustang that used to be a magazine project car. At the starting line it weighs right around 3000 lbs. The engine is a ridiculously mild carbureted 302, and at the time it was backed up with a prepped OEM 5 speed and a Ford Motorsports Dana rear with a 4.5X gear. On 26X9 tires it ran 11.80's at 110-ish. On a chassis dyno it barely cracked 300 HP. (It now runs a prepped C4 and is a tad slower due to other issues) Remember, stock eliminator cars literally leave nothing to chance, every inch of the car is scienced out to provide the most efficient use of power possible. If you took that engine & trans out and put it into a similar weight streeter it would probably be at least 2 seconds slower just because the car doesn't work as well. FWIW, another well-known racer I know once ran a 283 in Super Stock trim--i.e. fully ported/welded heads, roller cam, any intake (but OEM carb), every trick in the book internally, etc. and it made ~480. </div></div> Still, there's something just a little fish going on? Even by you own example, the light weight Fox/302 combo was right there. I could see low 12's, but mid 11's!!! Seems be a stretch with what is posted. I know how we set up our cars, and what we do to get there with our power. ET calculators are way outta wack on ours too. I have friends and have helped on TAFC, TFD, IHRA/NHRA P/S, as well as some other high-end fact class cars. My buddies SN95 Mustang IS the worlds fastest, N/A SB car in the world @ 2750lbs (with a 7.68). I have a NHRA 500 incher in my car and my crew chiefs car has an Aussie 400 P/S in it as well. He also has a current 2015 IHRA P/S car too. We go through things like Cryo'ing, coating, ceramic bearings, Ti wheel studs and you name it. Usually the best of the best in what we do. We also look for every 1/100th and add them up. Ever been crossing the line with engine singing at 9500+ and ZERO oil pressure??? That's what it's like with 0W2 oil, and that we only push to 2 runs MAX! So with that background of looking for each and ever hundredth we can find, I still find this one a bit difficult to see????? Sorry that just me. |
Re: Little engines that can
"...engine singing at 9500+ and ZERO oil pressure..."
I got stuck on that phrase! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif[/img] |
Re: Little engines that can
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So with that background of looking for each and ever hundredth we can find, I still find this one a bit difficult to see????? Sorry that just me. </div></div> Just do a little Google search on Wade Owens Chevelle NHRA. You will find it weighs 3200 pounds and is nicknamed "The Money Pit". For those of you that haven't run a high dollar Powerglide on a four link car like a Chevelle, all I can say is ~ you'll never believe how hard that combo can leave. |
Re: Little engines that can
OK. I'll try to put this in perspective w/o typing a novel.
My friend's Mustang is nowhere NEAR maxed-out, it's just well-sorted out for the parts on the car now. It does (/did) NOT have a super-tricked out trans, just rebuilt with a few parts added for reliability (but he still managed to break it). It did NOT have a trick clutch in it, just a Ford Motorsports "street/strip" unit. It does NOT have trick shocks & struts on it, just mid-level components. The engine is an 80K+ mile UNTOUCHED OEM roller 5.0 short block--stock rings, bearings, never been apart. It had a B303 cam in it with OEM lifters, a pair of mildly re-worked 351W heads, a Weiand dual plane and a 750 Holley. Headers were street 1 5/8" units with 2 1/2" pipes and a pair of Flowmasters. All fluids are ran full at all times and all are garden variety--no trick racing oils or anything like that. It runs like it does because he's made hundreds of passes and refined everything as far as he could. He nailed down tire pressures, launch RPM, shift points, timing, jetting, etc. Speaking of shift points, he only shifts this thing at just over 6K. Using Stan Weiss' calculator calculator and plugging in 3000 lbs and an 11.8 ET shows 360.88 HP required, pretty much spot-on for this car taking into account the typical 20% drivetrain loss from flywheel to wheel HP with a manual transmission. Were you to leave his engine untouched and add a full race trans & clutch, high end shocks & struts, radial tires, zero friction suspension components, etc. the car would be at least .3-.5 quicker than it was. There's mid 11's with 300 RWHP at ~3000 lbs. The calculator says it would take 390 HP to do that, but we already know it's within reach w/o touching the engine. Consider the Chevelle. As stated in the article, it runs right at the national record so we know it's scienced out. Minimum weight for L Stock Automatic is 3072 + 170 lbs for the driver, which is 3242 lbs. Again, I'd bet my bottom dollar that car has every trick in the book in it--lightweight low friction trans, high-$$ converter, suspension has been perfected, etc. With modifications like these, it's not uncommon at all for a Stock or Super Stock car to ET well below what HP/ET calculators predict. Again using Stan Weiss' calculator and plugging in 3242 lbs and 11.6 ET shows a requirement of 410 HP. Since the car's scienced out, we already know it really doesn't take that much power to run that number. Set on "kill" (water-thin oil, probably only 2-3 quarts in the pan, engine ice cold, etc.) I'm sure the 283 probably doesn't miss 400 HP by much, which again falls right in line with the numbers. JMO of course. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] *edit* John typed his response while I was still working on mine. As usual, he's spot-on. |
Re: Little engines that can
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Re: Little engines that can
One more from Wade on the ST forum. Note this was posted 4 years ago:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No tricks really. Lots of testing on cams, converters and carburetors. Our spec Ross pistons, Manley rods from the NHRA approved list and Total Seal Gapless rings and pins must weigh at least 1195 grams. Our best cams are in the 262/266 @ .050 range. We have 5 or 6 cast iron intakes (we can legally run a 327/300 manifold) and randomly test at the track for which is quickest. The light oil doesnt work for us, we use 5/20 Royal Purple, 3-5 qts depending on what we're doing. Stock oil pans and stock appearing cranks also hurt us. The any valve job rule did pick our program up, though. 2.08 first gear and a 5.86 in the rear creates a 7600 finish line rpm...... That 11.46 run was 1.47 60', 7.19 660', 11.46 @ 112.99 in 2700' of air. We done this at an Indy div last year.</div></div> |
Re: Little engines that can
MacNeish runs 10.40's with his D/S 302 camaro. Not sure what NHRA rates them now but a 302/290 hp motor I think is NHRA rated at 310 or so? Don't hold me to that but close I think. That NHRA rating kinda hurts them.
Everything has to work perfect and there are many tricks to the trade that they ALL do. Gearing is a big part along with the clutch and even the correct headers. When the 1985 versions of the 305 camaros run in the 10's you know the HP rating from GM is way off. NHRA adds HP to those figures. |
Re: Little engines that can
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Re: Little engines that can
The headers are one point I didn't consider. Maybe the ones used in the car weren't the ones used on the dyno??
Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] |
Re: Little engines that can
I am sure they were not Verne. I think they are using step headers
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Re: Little engines that can
Love the little small blocks, I use to watch a 289 65 Stang run at Norwalk years ago...... Unfrickinbelieveable! Serious RPM, 4sp and a untubbed rear. HP? Never knew never cared. It was a treat to see this car launch at what seemed like 6K + and head wheels up for a low 11.0 sec run. I hear it's still running, quicker but nowhere near as "stock appearing" as it was. A lot of little small blocks kicked some serious butt before the "good blocks" came out.
BIG |
Re: Little engines that can
I bet Wade's Chevelle has a torque convertor about the size of a Burger King Whopper . . . .
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Re: Little engines that can
Junior Whopper!
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Re: Little engines that can
I always fantasized about using a small centrifugal clutch in front of an automatic transmission instead of using a converter. Maybe have it work sorta like a snowmobile. Sometimes thinking like that, with enough time and money for testing and experimenting, might produce a winning race car. But then again, it could just be another Money Pit. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
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Re: Little engines that can
We ran a multiple disc clutch Powerglide with air shift in the Pro Nitrous Camaro , ran 1.10 60 foot times ..
Upgraded to 350 Turbo style with clutched torque converter & air.. ($30k + service/maintenance)...runs .960 60 ft times....nearly the best in class. And 3.70 et's @ 200 with soft tune ups. Brother Joe will Not tune it for KILL Mode to run 3.60's.....He's Never Lost a Motor ($150k + service/maintenance) in 4+ years of PDRA /ADRL Pro Nitrous Racing. |
Re: Little engines that can
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work. |
Re: Little engines that can
If someone wants to build a 302 I have a '68 3923279 crank with the rod journals turned down .100 for a small journal rod.
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Re: Little engines that can
a "go fast" crank.
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Re: Little engines that can
I have been told it was worth about 8 to 10 H.P. to do that to the crank.
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Re: Little engines that can
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98 Yep they look like W2 mopar heads. Neat stuff! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> |
Re: Little engines that can
That is why the 305's run so good.
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Re: Little engines that can
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work. </div></div> This I didn't know?? Strange how in STOCK, things are really regulated like only offset grinding crank .015", yet you can cut apart a set of heads, move everything and re-weld them back, and tech does/says nothing? aybe that's true, never really been into STOCK. The multi-clutch PG sounds good for the hi-Hp big inch guys, but these smaller motor guys that I know, run 3 speeds, mostly PRO-FLITES. Buddies small tire (29.5 X 10.5 tire), 2780 lbs 440" SB N/A for has also been 1.1025 60's. Again 3 speed PF trans. PG was just off a bit and car would 60 with the 2 speeds and low Hp 440 SB. Now I'm NOT saying you CAN'T get a OEM style lil SB to run mid 11's, just there's something that's not being told??? I can't figure, why this STOCK ELIMINATOR, either K/SA, L/SA or M/SA car, that can legally run mid 11's, why doesn't it hold a record in the class??? Record for K is 11.76, L is 11.82 and m is ONLY 12.35 MINIMUM? MacNeish is listed for D/S though. Trust me, I'm all about going faster then you should with what you have, these are some good examples too. NO DOUBT either way, the car works and the guy is successful in my book.. |
Re: Little engines that can
Current NHRA racing is run on a qualifying set-up in an eliminator bracket. Whoever runs the farthest under the unrealistic standard that is set for each class is the number one qualifier. If by chance, by accident or on purpose, a car and driver was to set a record at the level that they can really run, they would have to qualify against that new record. It's too easy to just leave the records alone and qualify 1 or 1.5 or 2 seconds under the minimum. You can then pick your own dial in and use that number for the rest of the event. Can you say " big bracket race?".
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Re: Little engines that can
Thats right John!
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Re: Little engines that can
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw </div></div> In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 & 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated & raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work. </div></div> Um, no. In Stock Class, heads are stock, with stock valve sizes in their stock locations and unported. You can have a 3 angle valve job using any angles. |
Re: Little engines that can
Buy a class engine that runs on or under the record and pull it apart......have untouched "stock" components on hand for comparison. That's if you can find someone to sell you (an outsider) an engine.
Protest and tear down rules still apply.........And you will NEVER SEE a fellow Class Racer called to Tech for A teardown protest.........NHRA will do a C.I. & a Compression ratio check on occasions. They are at "Risk" themselves...... .....for a "counter protest" Its Racing......if you ain't cheat'n, you ain't race'n..... |
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