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Restamping blocks??????????????
So what are peoples take on this? IF an original body IS located, yet motor and trans long gone, is it ok to restamp the block/cases and pass it off as numbers matching???? Is it legal to knowingly restamp a block and say it's the original? Like swapping tags???
Reason is for this: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...lle#Post611156 As I said in this thread, "In a case where a high value car (such as this Chevelle) the re-stamp or "matching numbers" only leads to one thing, HIGHER SALE PRICE. I personally look at cars that are "NUMBERS MATCHING" as born with parts and therefore more original and subsequently worth or valued higher. " Seem quite obvious that the block has been restamped since they went there separate ways years ago. BUT yet advertised as "numbers matching" now https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/SC0...COPO-Chevelle/ BUYER BEWARE I guess!!!!!!!!!!! |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>
They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc... Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit. This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't. Ron |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>
They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc... Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit. This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't. Ron</div></div> Unfortunately #'s matching has many meanings and in fact is a code for restamped for many. Born with original drivetrain is a more definitive term. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
'Numbers matching' 'Classic' 'Original' 'Rare' and my favorite, 'Survivor' Have different meanings to different people...
'Born with' is certainly a more definitive description. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately #'s matching has many meanings and in fact is a code for restamped for many. Born with original drivetrain is a more definitive term. </div></div>
I could not agree more and any time I read an ad today that states "numbers matching" I automatically think they are likely restamped. I look for "born with" as well. If you restamp an engine or a transmission or any component parts for that matter, you are a crook and fraud, plain and simple. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
I thought the term "restoration block" was fashionable in some circles as well.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
20 years ago, "numbers matching" meant that, at a minimum, the major hard parts such as the block, trans case, etc. were original to the car. At least that was how I and most of the people I knew in the hobby took it. The language has been twisted. Now "numbers matching" must be taken at its most literal interpretation, guaranteeing nothing.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Awhile back, on one of those Discovery TV shows, they actually showed someone holding the car's title up to next to the dashboard VIN # and saying "Yep, she's number matching"!
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge. </div></div>
Surely not, but let me ask does being a NCRS judge make you lose your morals??? Just asking. Ron |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
This subject or shall I say it's interpretation nowadays is like watching "the Good Wife" bend the truth in court.
Ron |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>
They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc... Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit. This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't. Ron </div></div> Ron, Just replying to the post. Check with the auction house regarding their specific definition of "Numbers Matching", each major auction a distinct definition and interpretation. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
69 DZ blocks are firmly in NCRS semantic land, and most auction houses list "#s matching" with consigned cars based solely on sellers description.
"Trust, but verify" Dutch Reagan |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Numbers matching just plain and simple does not confirm it’s the original engine in today’s world. Dealers typically use the term numbers matching to limit their liability. How about an original engine that was decked and restamped? That’s the original engine, but restamped, it gets very confusing. If you are sure an engine is the original engine, state that it is original and not restamped. You really have to be sure it is and today we’re getting pretty good at telling the fakes from originals. I feel bad for the folks that take numbers matching as confirmation that it is the original engine and not restamped. You have to go farther with your questions and inspection than that.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
IMHO -- "Born with" and "original to the vehicle/car" mean "that's how she came from the factory". The exception to that is when those (example - Don Yenko) pulled a 396 and stuffed a 427 in its's place. TAZ
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
I agree with TAZ, if it states that the drivetrain is the same one that was installed in the car when it was built (born with) you cannot get any more defined than that. One still needs to confirm but at least the author believes it to be.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This subject or shall I say it's interpretation nowadays is like watching "the Good Wife" bend the truth in court.
Ron </div></div> [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] ALWAYS REMEMBER Lawyers <span style="text-decoration: underline">are not</span> under oath to tell the truth in the court room. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>
They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc... Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit. This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't. Ron </div></div> Ron, Just replying to the post. Check with the auction house regarding their specific definition of "Numbers Matching", each major auction a distinct definition and interpretation. </div></div> My response has no reflection on you, don't even know you. I was just saying that the term #'s matching means born with engine. If it has to be spelled out than something shady is going on. I wouldn't believe an Auction house if they told me a Red car was Red. Ron |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge. </div></div>
Surely not, but let me ask does being a NCRS judge make you lose your morals??? Just asking. Ron </div></div> NCRS decided years ago that re stamping components was "part of the restoration process". That's when the current boondoggle that we're in now began. If you want to blame someone, blame them. NCRS judges only follow the guidelines that are set out for them. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vern B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge. </div></div>
Surely not, but let me ask does being a NCRS judge make you lose your morals??? Just asking. Ron </div></div> NCRS decided years ago that re stamping components was "part of the restoration process". That's when the current boondoggle that we're in now began. If you want to blame someone, blame them. NCRS judges only follow the guidelines that are set out for them. </div></div> Then the question becomes. Is a restamped component merely another word for "re-creation"? |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
RESTAMPING blocks or any other part on a car should be illegal. They should ban the selling of materials to stamp blocks or parts. There are a few out there that are doing this and when they are caught they deny it. If the block is decked leave that way. RESTAMPING is nothing but GREED and once your caught you are a marked person. Just my opinion.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Restamping a block is only to increase the value of a car, that's all. How much do you think an "original" engine increases the value of a 1967 l88 corvette. Put a 427/435hp motor in that car and compare values.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RESTAMPING blocks or any other part on a car should be illegal. They should ban the selling of materials to stamp blocks or parts. There are a few out there that are doing this and when they are caught they deny it. If the block is decked leave that way. RESTAMPING is nothing but GREED and once your caught you are a marked person. Just my opinion.</div></div>
I agree 110%!!!! If its not an original component it's fraudulent misrepresentation to state that the <span style="font-weight: bold">"components are numbers matching"</span> without clarifying that the components have been re-stamped. IMHO!!!!!!!! |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
How about some guys here that sell re stamped Distributors and Alternators. They tell you it is a re stamp in the description so are they crooks or scammers [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] Should sYc ban the sales of re stamped parts right here on the forum in the selling area?
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XXXBlackLs6M22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about some guys here that sell re stamped Distributors and Alternators. They tell you it is a re stamp in the description so are they crooks or scammers [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] Should sYc ban the sales of re stamped parts right here on the forum in the selling area? </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">As I said if they say they are re-stamped I don't have a problem with it at all. What I take issue with is the blatant lying!</span> |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Misrepresentation is just NOT right!!@#$ TAZ
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Unless you personally purchased the car and have owned it since day one, then you cannot and should not use the term "Born With" unless you have a signed and notarized affidavit from the original owner, and even in those cases, you really have no idea! So the best way to protect yourself is to make sure the seller is known and reputable, the car is known if possible .. (not a barn find) and all date codes, castings etc. match, however once again, if you did not personally buy the car brand new and confirm everything yourself, then you really have no way of knowing for sure. I purchase a lot of cars, and I always make sure all castings, etc, are correct, and that as much documentation is present as possible and the car is well known.
Just my 2 cents [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
when I read the ad for the mecum COPO chevelle in this thread, I think when someone writes its <span style="font-style: italic">still with</span> its numbers matching engine, its like saying its got the original engine to the non savvy folks out there. But to me its just creative (yet sad) word-smithing. If its the original engine, people will say it is. I myself would not believe this is the original engine to the car.
For that amount of money, I would expect to see a picture of the broachmarks on the block with the head off. When I bought my 65 L78 out of the Otis chandler collection, I got a nice clear picture of the complete block surface (roger Gibson provided), not just of the pad. Real easy to provide. This stuff is not rocket science, if you are going to ask $200K for this type of car. That ofcourse still does not rule out a never stamped original block was used, but that is probably a rarer case on this chevelle, as one would have to nail the casting date to be correct. That would be pretty rare to get. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Good Lord.....this topic has been previously discussed to death on this forum and many others, with absolutely no clear consensus of opinion. Where's the 'beating a dead horse' icon when we need it? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
you stamp numbers on the block your asking for legal trouble.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO -- "Born with" and "original to the vehicle/car" mean "that's how she came from the factory". The exception to that is when those (example - Don Yenko) pulled a 396 and stuffed a 427 in its's place. TAZ </div></div>
Or when BWAG did the same when Ol Yeller was delivered 12/68. Bob told me "we yanked the L89 and put in the Booth-Arons L72 almost immediately. The L89 sat on the parts room floor at the shop for months and folks at my dealership scavenged it for parts". OMG, if he only had a crystal ball! |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Pritchard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Lord.....this topic has been previously discussed to death on this forum and many others, with absolutely no clear consensus of opinion. Where's the 'beating a dead horse' icon when we need it? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] </div></div>
Amen. I guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is. Or something like that. Sheesh. Phil W. http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...deadhorse2.gif |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough.
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough. </div></div>
I agree. Just because we are "in the know" on this site, doesn't mean everyone out there is! Like SS said "With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized". What's sad is, I'm just a guy from SW Ontario who likes cars, has a couple and a bit of knowledge I pick up along the way. I got into this heated discussion YEARS ago with a well known, high end dealer about a car from my home town. He did pretty much the exact same thing. Bought a car that I PERSONALLY knew, restored it, and was asking LARGE for a L78 1970 Nova, in fact, he turned down $78,000.00 I believe because he mentioned something along the lines of "Where will you find a NUMBERS MATCHING restored L78 '70 Nova for that price. When I questioned him on the original motor, he said "they found it in a nearby state" and that it "was authenticated" by chevy GURU. Well we went back and forth for a bit and there was plenty on here questioning ME and my right to raise the question of this well respected dealer. WELL low and behold, the owner of the original engine showed up to support what I was told and stated he STILL HAD the engine, as well as documents and photos of the motor being PULLED from that car and going into his. The seller got quite after that. I'm just bring to light that there seems to be more then a few holes in the whole deal, re-stamps and questionable scrap/wreaking yard body. And letting the "buyer beware" that this could possibly be a rebody restamp piece together car as I have spoken to the original owner who sold the car WITHOUT the original motor back in the '70's. And when he searched for the car, and found it had been scrapped, he went to the wreaking yard and the owner said "they crushed it a few months ago"???? But yet is shows up now, with "numbers matching" attached to it??? SHADY money hungry seller that is putting a bad light on our hobby. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough. </div></div>
I agree. Just because we are "in the know" on this site, doesn't mean everyone out there is! Like SS said "With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized". What's sad is, I'm just a guy from SW Ontario who likes cars, has a couple and a bit of knowledge I pick up along the way. I got into this heated discussion YEARS ago with a well known, high end dealer about a car from my home town. He did pretty much the exact same thing. Bought a car that I PERSONALLY knew, restored it, and was asking LARGE for a L78 1970 Nova, in fact, he turned down $78,000.00 I believe because he mentioned something along the lines of "Where will you find a NUMBERS MATCHING restored L78 '70 Nova for that price. When I questioned him on the original motor, he said "they found it in a nearby state" and that it "was authenticated" by chevy GURU. Well we went back and forth for a bit and there was plenty on here questioning ME and my right to raise the question of this well respected dealer. WELL low and behold, the owner of the original engine showed up to support what I was told and stated he STILL HAD the engine, as well as documents and photos of the motor being PULLED from that car and going into his. The seller got quite after that. I'm just bring to light that there seems to be more then a few holes in the whole deal, re-stamps and questionable scrap/wreaking yard body. And letting the "buyer beware" that this could possibly be a rebody restamp piece together car as I have spoken to the original owner who sold the car WITHOUT the original motor back in the '70's. And when he searched for the car, and found it had been scrapped, he went to the wreaking yard and the owner said "they crushed it a few months ago"???? But yet is shows up now, with "numbers matching" attached to it??? SHADY money hungry seller that is putting a bad light on our hobby. </div></div> Glad you stood your ground. As more and more people that "liked" cars over the years become financially stable enough to finally buy one we with knowledge shouldn't assume all have the same knowledge. A guy starts his search after the kids are grown and out of the house and because __________ states a car is #'s he makes said purchase only to be duped. Ron |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
Education is the key -- and as long as there are dedicated followers of this forum and the stories they relate ... the quest for truth will prevail. The sad part of this whole deal is those without a clue will continue to be hood-winked by sellers. TAZ
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Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough.</span></span> </div></div> All good comments but Amen and nicely put on all counts here Rick!!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
This topic is a double-edged sword.
I've personally had my ass ran up the flagpole <span style="font-style: italic">more than once</span> for informing a customer that they'd been duped into buying a re-stamped carb. Sometimes people don't <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> the truth. They simply want you to validate the decision(s) they've already made. The tough part is figuring out whom to tell and when to keep my mouth shut. |
Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
My rule of thumb in that situation is, if they ask, I tell them. If they don't ask, I keep my mouth shut. Even when they ask I have been met with some rather hostile people before. $182k paid for a Shadow Grey LS6 that used to be a Malibu. He was NOT happy but between Chris and I we got $120k of his money back from the seller so all ended well. Rick Hendrick being told two of his cars were fake. NOT HAPPY! Sad thing is, his two cars inspections were freebies and I still was the bad guy! Go figure! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif[/img]
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