Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<span style="color: #3333FF">Guys,

If I may, I'm trying to find information/photos of a Liberty Transmission, which would have been used by drag racers back in the 70's??
Were they similar in any way to a GM M21 or M22? Or totally a different dog? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
I have searched without luck online, and I'm not close enough to any shops that might service this kind of thing. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img]
Any help will be truly appreciated. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Greg </span>

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

I am thinking pro stock might run them now?

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billohio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am thinking pro stock might run them now? </div></div>
<span style="color: #3333FF">Thanks Bill. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Yes, I guess I could have been more specific hey. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/blush.gif[/img]
I'm kinda familiar with these later style boxes as used today in Pro Stock.
(<span style="font-style: italic">Photo borrowed from the net...</span>)
http://cdn.dragzine.com/files/2010/0...clutchless.jpg

The box I am interested in though, would possibly have had very similar dimensions as an M21-22 GM box?
Reason I assume this is that the car I've seen (it's quite rare) appears to have an unmodified tunnel? The shifter (Hurst) is also mounted to the extreme left, or driver side to you guys over there. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]
I'm not real familiar with how these &quot;clutchless&quot; boxes worked, something along the lines of a semi-automatic from what I've read.
This car ran a scattershield as well, would this have held the clutch(less) pack?

Many thanks guys
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Greg </span>

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/n...8/RC_Trans.pdf



When I hear Liberty, I seem to recall some reworked Chrysler boxes. The link above doesn't really help but may clear up options based on timeline.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

OK.
some better clarification on Your use and specific year(s) ?
Class racing ?
Pro Stock?
M/P
SS or Stock / Modified Stock.?

Liberty's ....Doug Nash.....internals inside Muncie cases.....
inside B-W cases.....
Nob Factory aluminum/cast iron cases
Then.. ....
Lenco.

sounds complicated, but each year from 1970 onto 71-72-73-74-75-76
brought fast advancing technology, parts, interchanges and the next best thing.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

My father raced gas class in the early 70's and ran a super T10 with what my father referred to as liberty pro gears and an M21 with Liberty pro gears. He sent the M21 gears to liberty where they modified the stock gears and sent them back (my understanding from what he told me). I still have the M21 but took it apart a few years ago to get rid of the liberty gears.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue69BMVette</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #3333FF">Guys,

If I may, I'm trying to find information/photos of a Liberty Transmission, which would have been used by drag racers back in the 70's??
Were they similar in any way to a GM M21 or M22? Or totally a different dog? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
I have searched without luck online, and I'm not close enough to any shops that might service this kind of thing. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img]
Any help will be truly appreciated. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Greg </span> </div></div>

Greg,
In my 69 Camaro Day 2 Street -n- Strip period car, Circa 1970-74 ,
I'm running a DOUG NASH Pro Shifted (Crash Box) M22 gear set, 2:52 in a Stock Muncie aluminum case , Hurst Competition Plus non Super Shifter Mount/rods.
Sounds like as if this is where your inquiry is aimed at. A non fabricated ,altered trans tunnel application.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rafbody</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My father raced gas class in the early 70's and ran a super T10 with what my father referred to as liberty pro gears and an M21 with Liberty pro gears. He sent the M21 gears to liberty where they modified the stock gears and sent them back (my understanding from what he told me). I still have the M21 but took it apart a few years ago to get rid of the
liberty gears.</div></div>

In a scenario like you described it sounds like the Hubs (Sliders) were modified, not the gears themselves.
Every other hub tooth was machined off, and the brass rings removed, some had there gears &quot;hardened&quot; but those the 'first attempts' for durability. Until the High Nickel Clusters &amp; gear sets were developed.
The early 70's did bring in Liberty &amp; Doug Nash Custom High Nickel gear sets (Manufactured for those particular companies by another Gear Company)

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

i had a K-rod sbc with &quot;Rons porting&quot; heads on it that was built for racing...it had a liberty geared saginaw 4 speed and 2 liberty geared t-10s all period correct...i bought them as a package from a drag race guy from the St Louis area..

there was a time those junk little saginaw 4 speeds where built up and unbreakable..when they started catching on..aftermarket trans like doug nash and lenco etc obsoleted them pretty quick

even in the early 80s saginaws worked over by liberty where bragged on alot

they also modified the Hemi boxes and the 428 CJ top loaders to work behind SBCs..there was a lot of that stuff in St Louis when i was a kid..

i may know of a liberty geared t-10 in the STL area if the guy still has his body shop open..you can PM me and ill give you his business info

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marxjunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i had a K-rod sbc with &quot;Rons porting&quot; heads on it that was built for racing...it had a liberty geared saginaw 4 speed and 2 liberty geared t-10s all period correct...i bought them as a package from a drag race guy from the St Louis area..

there was a time those junk little saginaw 4 speeds where built up and unbreakable..when they started catching on..aftermarket trans like doug nash and lenco etc obsoleted them pretty quick

even in the early 80s saginaws worked over by liberty where bragged on alot

*******Mark, the use of the Cast iron/ Nodular case was a big deal then &amp; Still is in Street stock oval racing even today (in 3 speed &amp; 4 speed applications)

they also modified the Hemi boxes and the 428 CJ top loaders to work behind SBCs..there was a lot of that stuff in St Louis when i was a kid..

i may know of a liberty geared t-10 in the STL area if the guy still has his body shop open..you can PM me and ill give you his business info</div></div>

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Greg,
In my 69 Camaro Day 2 Street -n- Strip period car, Circa 1970-74 ,
I'm running a DOUG NASH Pro Shifted (Crash Box) M22 gear set, 2:52 in a Stock Muncie aluminum case , Hurst Competition Plus non Super Shifter Mount/rods.
Sounds like as if this is where your inquiry is aimed at. A non fabricated ,altered trans tunnel application. </div></div>
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Thanks Day2_69Z
I think you nailed it for me. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]
The car definitely appears to be non-altered in the trans-tunnel, leading me to believe it possibly ran the M22 &quot;Rock crusher&quot; with Liberty internals.
It is equally possible it ran a T-10 or even a Saginaw, but I don't know that they were around much, or even as popular as the M22??
I have the M22 mounted at the moment, I'll just tell everyone it has Liberty internals. It is <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">only</span></span> a model. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]
Thanks for the input guys
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Greg </span>

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

a model ?
on what part of her &quot;measurements&quot; is it mounted ?

full scale or oh no....1/25 th.?
most real chevy race cars used the lighter Muncie case for pro shifted internals unless they were Pro Class cars.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a model ?
on what part of her &quot;measurements&quot; is it mounted ?

full scale or oh no....1/25 th.?
most real chevy race cars used the lighter Muncie case for pro shifted internals unless they were Pro Class cars. </div></div>
<span style="color: #3333FF">LOL [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]
Yeah, this is for my 1/12 ZLX-427 Baldwin Motion build....sorry, that's the <span style="font-style: italic">model</span> I meant. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]
I have a thread started in the Motion section on here, but it has been a while since I did any work on it. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img]

Dug up an old magazine article (stored on PC from extensive searching) from when the car was first campaigned.. The original owner (Hamilton) sent the then stock Z-28 Camaro to Motion Performance in 1974.
I believe he ran the car that year in either (or both??) Super Stock or Modified Production. Unsure for how long or how successful he was.</span>

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rafbody</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My father raced gas class in the early 70's and ran a super T10 with what my father referred to as liberty pro gears and an M21 with Liberty pro gears. He sent the M21 gears to liberty where they modified the stock gears and sent them back (my understanding from what he told me). I still have the M21 but took it apart a few years ago to get rid of the
liberty gears.</div></div>

In a scenario like you described it sounds like the Hubs (Sliders) were modified, not the gears themselves.
Every other hub tooth was machined off, and the brass rings removed, some had there gears &quot;hardened&quot; but those the 'first attempts' for durability. Until the High Nickel Clusters &amp; gear sets were developed.
The early 70's did bring in Liberty &amp; Doug Nash Custom High Nickel gear sets (Manufactured for those particular companies by another Gear Company) </div></div>


Actually both the sliders and gears were modified. There were some sliders that had every other tooth machined and others that had the &quot;front&quot; part of 2 teeth machined with the Back&quot; half remaining and every third tooth was untouched. The gears were machined and the teeth that meshed with the sliders were modified.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

I had a Liberty's like that as you described. A 2:20 M22 cut set up.
That was a trans from 72/73....
I had another used Liberty's built by them in 75, it was high nickel M22 cut with special big lug sliders 12 lugs I think. That had no interchangeable parts with a GM M22 other than the rebuild kit /small parts kit.

The Doug Nash M22 I have now is there design 2:52 big lug slider... there's alot of work done to the input shaft (a lug assembly welded on and special heat treating)
the complete gear set is also not compatible with stock M22...
memory serves me...these are super strong up to 500+ - ft lbs torque and more condusive for limited street driving as when gently but firmly shifted the gears themselves pulls itself into gear....we'll see soon enough how it works behind a 302/425 hp &amp; 400-430 ft lbs of torque.. if I break this trans, I f***ed up or the clutch / shifter wasn't doing its job..... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

For those who don't know what these look like, here are the internals of a Liberty M-22 Muncie:



http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps4ebacd60.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...pseef1a8dd.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps64aa54b2.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps81f15b44.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...psdce4ea7b.jpg

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

Jason,
Is this an actual Liberty's Complete internals of the gear set, Cluster, sliders and input or a Modified adapted trans done by Liberty's ?

I can see some but not a lot.....its tough seeing the inside of the sliders.
I see its an M22 platform, do you know the gear ratio ?

BTW, thanks for digging this out &amp; sharing. I'm sure the info and pixs won't go unappreciated or unnoticed.

Tom

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue69BMVette</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #3333FF">Guys,

If I may, I'm trying to find information/photos of a Liberty Transmission, which would have been used by drag racers back in the 70's??
Were they similar in any way to a GM M21 or M22? Or totally a different dog? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
I have searched without luck online, and I'm not close enough to any shops that might service this kind of thing. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img]
Any help will be truly appreciated. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Greg </span> </div></div>

Greg,
In my 69 Camaro Day 2 Street -n- Strip period car, Circa 1970-74 ,
I'm running a DOUG NASH Pro Shifted (Crash Box) M22 gear set, 2:52 in a Stock Muncie aluminum case , Hurst Competition Plus non Super Shifter Mount/rods.
Sounds like as if this is where your inquiry is aimed at. A non fabricated ,altered trans tunnel application. </div></div>

I did not know anyone made a 2.52 gear set with the M22 gearing back in the 1970s? All OE M22 gears were 2.20 ratio.

If you saw an Autogear super case next to the stock GM piece, you'd sent that GM case straight to the trash. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

I'm using an Autogear case with iron midplate, autogear tail housing, stock GM cover and stock 26-spline M20 gearset with original GM gears (2nd gear was replaced). Threw it together myself from a pile of junk I found in my grandmothers basement from when my Uncle was racing at PID in late 1960s. Although by the time I was done, about the only stuff I used from the junk pile was the mainshaft, shifter shafts, side cover and first and third gear. Countergear and input are from a 71-74 trans and the rest is Autogear stuff. Works great!

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

I believe this is real Liberty modified stuff. I don't know much about it except I wish they left the original M22 that it was alone. This is original 2.20 stuff that was built long ago. Look at the time spend on welding each wide syncro tooth for a hardened and tapered surface.


Jason

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

The gear set pictured is Doug Nash stuff, the Pro-rings are part of the original gear blank, Liberty welded their Pro-rings into place...

I have a bunch of this stuff, I'll try to take some pictures of both... Crash

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

crash - missed seeing u at MCACN!!!

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

Crash,


Thanks for the info. Are you saying these gears are all aftermarket pieces, not GM parts that have been modified?


Thanks,

Jason

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gear set pictured is Doug Nash stuff, the Pro-rings are part of the original gear blank, Liberty welded their Pro-rings into place...

I have a bunch of this stuff, I'll try to take some pictures of both... Crash</div></div>

Good eye Crash.... I have a Doug Nash and Yes, Doug Nash Gear set,lugs, Sliders and YES a 2:52 Ratio M22 . They had 4 ? ratios in 73/74 , 2:20 , 2:52 , 2:64 &amp; 2:88 if memory serves correct.(the 2:88's were extremely expensive and primarily used in M/P Small inch small blocks that launched &amp; shifted ,11,000-12,000 RPM ranges.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

Cool... I never knew they were making other ratios that 2.20 with the M22 helical angle back then.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Blue69BMVette]<span style="color: #3333FF">Guys,

If I may, I'm trying to find information/photos of a Liberty Transmission, which would have been used by drag racers back in the 70's??
Were they similar in any way to a GM M21 or M22? Or totally a different dog? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
I have searched without luck online, and I'm not close enough to any shops that might service this kind of thing. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img]
Any help will be truly appreciated. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Greg </span> </div></div>

Greg,
In my 69 Camaro Day 2 Street -n- Strip period car, Circa 1970-74 ,
I'm running a DOUG NASH Pro Shifted (Crash Box) M22 gear set, 2:52 in a Stock Muncie aluminum case , Hurst Competition Plus non Super Shifter Mount/rods.
Sounds like as if this is where your inquiry is aimed at. A non fabricated ,altered trans tunnel application. </div></div>

I did not know anyone made a 2.52 gear set with the M22 gearing back in the 1970s? All OE M22 gears were 2.20 ratio.

If you saw an Autogear super case next to the stock GM piece, you'd sent that GM case straight to the trash .;)

Agreed, the 2 cases are night &amp; day,,,,except in the early/mid 70's they didn't offer a better case than a Muncie....(other than a Pro Stock Doug Nash) my build is true to 1970-74 era pieces,,,,,, &quot;gotta have the right stuff &quot; to an extent.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gear set pictured is Doug Nash stuff, the Pro-rings are part of the original gear blank, Liberty welded their Pro-rings into place...

I have a bunch of this stuff, I'll try to take some pictures of both... Crash</div></div>

**** Crash, those pics would be great to see. Do you have any paper work, catalog material or decals related to Doug Nash muncies ? I could sure use some.....and spare parts.
Liberty's still makes some stuff or will set up to make a run. (last year they custom made me new sliders while doing the Contract for the Indy Racing League Indy 500 transmissions &amp; drivetrain pieces)
I do have an issue of Popular Hot Rodding , August '74 with a Nash feature on Pro-Shifted M22's &amp; M21's

Thanks, Tom

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

I believe in those days Liberty made the gear set to convert stock transmissions like Nash and also Trans End in NJ. did. I believe my buddy ran a clutchless 5 speed with Liberty gears meaning you came out with the clutch and then did not need it for the gear changes. That was NHRA Modified Eliminator of the 70's early 80's.

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gear set pictured is Doug Nash stuff, the Pro-rings are part of the original gear blank, Liberty welded their Pro-rings into place...

I have a bunch of this stuff, I'll try to take some pictures of both... Crash</div></div>

Good eye Crash.... I have a Doug Nash and Yes, Doug Nash Gear set,lugs, Sliders and YES a 2:52 Ratio M22 . They had 4 ? ratios in 73/74 , 2:20 , 2:52 , 2:64 &amp; 2:88 if memory serves correct.(the 2:88's were extremely expensive and primarily used in M/P Small inch small blocks that launched &amp; shifted ,11,000-12,000 RPM ranges.</div></div>


Correction on the Doug Nash M22 Gear Ratios :
as of 1974 they offered: 9310 Nickel Alloy Steel specially heat treated in :
2:52 - 2:70. - 2:95 gear sets &amp; Cast iron case.....any one Have a Case ??

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

The first pictures show complete Nash gear sets on a main shaft just as it came out of a trans, notice the first gears, one is stock Muncie, the other is a Pro-shift Nash gear...

From what I understand Nash made 2 production runs of cast iron main cases, small print first, then large print...

Input gears L-to-R N.O.S. M-22, Nash w/original Pro-ring, Nash w/re-placement Pro-ring...

More pictures coming... Crash

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

First pictures of N.O.S. M-22 cluster gear next Nash cluster gear, notice the helical angle of first on the Nash so they could use early T-10 9310 first gear, or M-20/21...

Next pictures of N.O.S. M-22 3rd gear, Nash slick shifted(mill off every other tooth), Nash w/original Pro-ring, Nash w/replacement Pro-ring...

More pictures coming... Crash

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

First picture show Liberty Pro-rings on early B-W T-10 2nd and 3rd gears, next to Nash 3rd gears...

Next pictures show N.O.S. Muncie slider, slick shift slider, 1-2 Pro slider when using stock 1st gear, 3-4 Pro slider...

Next picture shows N.O.S. Muncie inner hub, and Pro hub with-out key slots...

Hope this helps... Crash

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

Definitely &quot;Crash Boxes&quot;

Fitting name ? did you &quot;Earn it&quot; with lack of left foot work ?

Great stuff...now I got a source besides Joe Liberty.

Thanks, Crash. !

Re: Liberty gearbox circa mid 70's??
 

Awesome. Thanks fit taking the time to share.

Jason