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Pinewood Derby Anyone?
I have very fond memories of running some fast Pinewood Derby Cars in Cub Scouts. Through the years, my dad was a "Go-To-Guy" for of his friends when it cam time to build cars for their kids. It is that time of year again, and were are helping some of my friends out this evening. Who else is working on something?
Here is a pic of me back in the day. I think this was at the Willow Grove Mall. It was actually just a track set-up and Cub Scouts from different areas would gtg and have informal races. Kinda like a street race for Cub Scouts. I think I enjoyed it more than the competition within the pack cause I got to race so much more. I probably sent my car down that track 200 times that day! I clearly remember being frustrated because I was able to beat most cars that day, but there was one in particular that I could't catch and it belonged to an adult. At the end of the day when I was leaving, the fellow said to me he was glad there were no scales around here, with a smile. I wonder to this day if he was just trying to make a kid feel good about being beat or if he really was heavy. Either way, the memory brings a smile to my face every time. http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...d/SCAN0009.jpg Anyone else want to share stories, old pics or even some newer ones? |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Apparently, my little guy Danny needs to build his first Pine Car - all new to me! So, if you have any tips/tricks, I'm all ears. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...psfzcfe58s.jpg
Well, this is a pic of a pic from earlier tonight. We've got an Outlaw Track in one section of the basement. Got plenty of tips. Why don't you come down for a SuperTune?! |
Drinking and Driving Nights
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Re: Drinking and Driving Nights
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My cars are ready to go, built in "Day Two" trim circa 78 complete with competition ribbon. Who'd a thunk it, only on the sYc !!!
BIG [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif[/img] |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, if you have any tips/tricks, I'm all ears. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>
Took 4 years of trying to finally get 1st place but my son did back in 2011, his final year. It's all about the kids learning and having fun (not Dad building the car for them) but the secret to going fast is in the wheels/axles and getting the weight right at 5 ounces (the weight limit). Jake |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Agree. Wheel and axle prep is key. There is also an advantage to have the wheels up the ramp as high as possible and placing the weight as far back without loosing stability- most potential energy. I get a kick out of seeing a well preped car accelerate in the flat section of the track.
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
We're putting the finishing touches on two cars for this years race. My oldest boy has moved onto Boy Scouts. The attached photo is of my three boys after each of them had won 1st Place this past year. The red car set both ends of the track record. Good luck to all the scouts (old and new)out there. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...9-dsc04258.jpg
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Wowww.. what memories... I was lucky that my Mom was den leader and my Dad was pack leader, so I had access to training sessions using the track !!! The pinewood derby cars were supposed to be a cub scout father/son project..in my case my Dad was a machinist, so he took the axles..(basically were similar to roofing nails) and the plastic wheels and he machined then perfectly round on a lathe. The other important factor is to place the axles square in the car. So my Pop scrapped the two small blocks of pine wood that the axles slide into and he machined new blocks out of a harder/denser wood so the axles would be and stay very square in the car. He aslo machined holes underneath and add weight in different areas for testing to see what worked best.
He also used a bridgeport and made the car look like a small indy car..with a wing and all. My part of the project was to help sand the car and help paint it Ferrari red !! We went to the pack meeting that year and I won first place by a mile. Then we were invited to another pack's meeting to challenge thier winner and I beat him also. That little car only lost one time ever and that is when my Dad made a new car the following year for my younger brother !!! I believe the cars may still be around at my Pop's house. I remember them forvever being in his top dresser drawer. Ill have to ask and post a few pics if I can find them... Thanks for the memories !!! |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Looking at the rules now, it seems maybe we cheated by changing the wood on the axles.. but maybe the rules were not the same back then??? ooppssss.. !!
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Great, just when I was getting the hang of the Jr Dragster thing.... I feel like I'm starting over. I'll find out if my little guy is going to compete, if so - I'll be full of questions!
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RPOLS3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, if you have any tips/tricks, I'm all ears. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>
Took 4 years of trying to finally get 1st place but my son did back in 2011, his final year. It's all about the kids learning and having fun (not Dad building the car for them) but the secret to going fast is in the wheels/axles and getting the weight right at 5 ounces (the weight limit). Jake </div></div> I agree with the 5 ounces and wheels. Both my sons won first place in our local Pinewood Derby & my oldest Son Billy went to the Midwest Nationals held in Schaumburg Illinois back in 1992? The meet included 1st. place winners from Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, & Indiana. He finished 11th out of 295? cars. I remember being there from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. The key is to put the wheels in a cordless drill by the hub, and sand them to a point with a sanding block removing all the square tread molded in the flat part. Then put the nails (axles) in the drill chuck and polish them with emery cloth. before installing the wheels into the car with the nails, fill the center where the axle rides with powdered graphite used by Locksmiths. The final thing to do is make SURE it weighs 4.99 ounces! We had a dad that was a printer (we used his ink scale to weigh the cars), another that was a Plumber (he had sheet lead used in sweating pipes) we hollowed out the underside and drilled the weight into the bottom of the car with counter sunk wood screws. We offered everyone in our local Derby a chance to "Tune Up" there cars before checking them in to make it a closer race, but did and some didn't. Being the Mechanic in the group and my son coming in 1st. (by a large margin) I was accused of cheating by some fathers. So we offered to race anyone again with our car backwards. We did and beat them all! It's all about the weight & wheels, there are no aerodynamics in play. I hated the father who showed up with a polished Bat Mobile or Star Wars car. You knew the son never made them, it was sad for the kid. Our's were both Chevy Orange cut with a hand coping saw and looked like it. I hope this helps. Have a great time with your Son, he will always remember it. Bill |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
My son had his first ever Pinewood Derby last year. We did research before the build and determined the wheels and axles are the key to speed.
My son was able to design his own car and paint scheme while I handled the rolling stock. The axles were polished with emery cloth to almost a mirror finish. I then made sure all four tires were true round and without and burrs. I used some pop rivet spacer washers on the axles between the tires and body. Furniture polish was used on the axles and inside the wheel hubs. NO GRAPHITE! if mixed with the furniture polish it will become sticky. Final test is to make sure the axles are installed square so the car will roll straight on a flat surface. Any pull will rub off speed on the track divider. Nothing ultra high tech with our setup at all. We ended up with the 3rd fastest car out of 39 cars. I discovered the first place car was running special order axles and probably some other tricks as well. The second place car was overweight at the weigh in after the final. SoOO technically we were the fastest legal car there. But it was a friendly Church Derby so we took our third place award ($10 Gift Certificate) and were happy to just make the final four. The topper was my son's car won the design award in a unanimous vote which garnered him another gift certificate and the only kid who won two awards at the event. He could not have been more pleased with our results! http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps29ef5a3a.jpg |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Taking notes.....
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
I would say the #1 step worth doing is making sure your axle alignment is right. You want the rear axles at a 3 degree cant so they run away from the body. The front dominant axle can be straight drilled (usually the passenger side front). If you also put a 3 degree cant on the driver's side front axle is should just be a hair from touching.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...el_OUT_OUT.gif So 3 wheels touching = less friction than 4 wheels touching. Check to see if you rules specifically require 4 wheels touching. If you have a good axle alignment, simply prepping the wheel bores, polishing the axles and running some decent lubrication should get you past 95% of the field. When is your event? |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
4 wheels touching what - the body?
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4 wheels touching what - the body? </div></div>
The track. Many rules state that all 4 wheels must touch the track - the 4th can touch a little but has to touch. In our tech inspection we had a box that the car had to fit inside (to make sure it was within spec for overall length and width), and then a section of track that the car had to fit on with all 4 wheels touching. All depends on how tecnhical your group wants to get. |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Three wheels touching the track. Most of the weight is at the back of the car, so they run great on 3 wheels.
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Here is a picture of our tech inspection from 2009 and the wooden "template box" and track along with a weigh-in scale
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...rby_09_003.jpg Here is the winning car my son made in 2011 (the green one), simple wedge with the weight in the back - drilled in - cool thing is that he was old enough that year he did the entire car with little assistance from me. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...rby_11_011.jpg |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Good fun!
So they go faster w/ more of the total weight at the rear of the vehicle? Are the wheels a spec item and can you modify them? If yes can you achieve the max weight by loading wheels and lightening the body? Do they roll any better/worse with 1 or 2 o-rings added to the outside of the wheels? Think like Smokey, if it's not illegal it must be legal! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Can't get a .pdf. or Word document to load so I am copying and pasting the rules we used back then. I'm pretty sure these are the standard BSA (Boy Scout/Cub Scout) rules:
Pinewood Derby Car Regulations 1. The car must be constructed using the materials supplied with regulation Grand Prix Kit #17006. 2. The car run in the Council Pinewood Derby shall be the identical car run by the entrant in his own pack derby, and it must have been constructed after April 17, 2010. 3. Length: Overall length shall not exceed 7 inches. 4. Width: Overall width shall not exceed 23/4 inches. 5. Weight: Maximum total weight of car, including driver, trims, weights, etc., shall be 5 ounces. 6. Height: Cars shall not be higher than 3”. This is measured from the bottom of the wheels to the top of anything on the car. This is so all Pinewood Derby Cars will clear all timing devices. 7. Wheels: Wheels must be constructed from those supplied in regulation kit #17006 or Replacement Wheel Kit #17007. No modifications of wheels will be allowed, except that burrs or excess plastic from the factory molding process (if any) may be removed or sanded. Wheels must be original width, thickness, and height and the whole tire surface must meet the track surface. All four wheels must touch the track surface. This will be checked during weigh in and inspection. If the flat surface of the tire is to be sanded, be careful not to round the corners (crown) of the wheel. Any rounding of the crowns will cause disqualification. An edge should still be present. See illustration to right. The axle bore of the wheel may not be bushed, sleeved, lined, or otherwise modified to change the basic wheel-to-metal axle interface other than the application of a non-permanent spray-on, brushed-on, or dusted lubrication compound. Bushings, sleeves, permanent coatings, thrust washers, and enclosed axles (hub cabs) are prohibited. Wheels may not be shaved. 8. Axles: Axles must be constructed from those supplied in regulation kit #17006 or replacement kit #17007. Burrs on the underside of the nail head may be removed with a file or emery cloth, and the nail shafts may be polished with fine emery cloth or jeweler’s rouge. The mating surface of the nail may not be grooved, bushed, sleeved, lined, or otherwise modified to change the basic wheel hub to nail shaft interface other than the application of a non-permanent spray-on, brushed-on, or dusted lubrication compound. Bushings, sleeves, permanent coatings, thrust washers, and enclosed axles (hub cabs) are prohibited. 9. Track Clearance: The car must have an under-body and in-between-wheel clearance which will allow it to travel freely over a track lane strip which is 3/8 inches maximum in height and 13/4 inches maximum in width. 10. Suspension: The car shall have a solid suspension consisting of the wheels and axles rigidly mounted to the car body. No springs, linkages, shock absorbing materials or other constructions which provide a non-rigid or floating-type suspension are permitted. 11. Details: Details such as steering wheel, windshield, driver, exhaust pipes, trim, etc., are permitted as long as they are rigidly mounted to the car body and do not exceed the overall car specifications. 12. Starting Devices: The car may not incorporate any devices which may assist starting. These shall include, but are not limited to, magnets, liquids, spring mechanisms, etc. There shall be no loose components within the body of the car. The car must also be free-wheeling. 13. Front Edge: The front edge of the car must rest against the starting peg on the track so that the entire car is behind the peg. Car Inspection: Every car entered will be subjected to, and must pass, an inspection to the rules and regulations of Grand Prix Kit #17006 and the foregoing Blackhawk Area Council and Belvidere Pack 141 Pinewood Derby Regulations. If the car does not meet the above specifications, it must be altered by a responsible adult or it will be disqualified. Please see the Courier for additional details about the race format and car inspection process used at the Council race. Additional Pack 141 Pinewood Derby Race Regulations 1. Each car will race in three heats. In each heat, the car will run in a different lane. Since every car races one time in each of the three lanes, every car experiences the same lane variations. 2. For each grade level, the winner is determined by the best overall average time. The times from each of the three heats (one for each lane) will be averaged together. Note that winning a heat is not necessarily an indicator of the final outcome, as faster cars may be running in other heats. 3. In the event of a tie, a run-off heat will be used to break the tie. 4. The pack equipment used to measure the height, width, length, clearance, and weight will prevail over any other measuring devices. 5. Trophies will be awarded to the top three finishers for each level (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos I and Webelos II). 6. All cars must qualify and pass inspection prior to the beginning of the race for the respective grade level. No car can qualify after the race has begun. No car can qualify after the fact. 7. If at any time prior to the Pack Pinewood (January 29, 2011), during the Pack Pinewood, and up to and including the Council Pinewood (April 16-17, 2011) it is determined that any rule was violated, the car and the scout will be disqualified with no recourse. &#61663;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Cut here-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------&#61664; ENTRANCE FORM – BELVIDERE PACK 141 – JANUARY 29, 2011 Scout’s Rank (circle one): Tiger Wolf Bear Webelos I or Webelos II Car was built after April 17, 2010 (circle one): Yes or No Car was built using the regulation kit #17006 (circle one): Yes or No The wheels used were included in the regulation kit #17006 or the replacement wheel kit #17007 (circle one): Yes or No The axles used were included in the regulation kit #17006 or the replacement wheel kit #17007 (circle one): Yes or No I have read and understand the rules listed above (circle one): Yes or No I understand that any violation of these rules will result in disqualification of the car and the scout (circle one): Yes or No Parent’s name: ______________________________ ______________________________ ____________ Print name Signature Date Scout’s name: ______________________________ ______________________________ ____________ Print name Signature Date |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
I've thought it is strange that the BSA store sells items which are in contrast to their rules. Here are 3 examples but there are several.
http://www.scoutstuff.org/pro-wheel-...-xt-2-new.html http://www.scoutstuff.org/lubricant-pwd-krytox.html http://www.scoutstuff.org/pro-rail-rider.html So not going political on the Scouts, but just want to caution you to research your own pack rules. I've found rules, enforcement and competition vary. |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pxtx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've found rules, enforcement and competition vary. </div></div>
True enough - everyone does it a little differently and some much more technical than others. Jake |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
This subject brings back a lot good memories od scouting! My Dad being a car guy loved this activity each year when my brother and I were in scouts. Both my pine wood derby car and my brother's, different years, won best design. Our cars were never very fast, but we always went over the top on the design.
I see that BSA sells a wide body kit now, Dad helped me build a wide body car using 2 car kits 20 plus years ago. One of our favorite tricks was to add decals from plastic car models to our cars to decorate them. One year we even added a clear plastic windshield from a model kit to our pine wood derby car to make it more realistic looking. Have fun Dads with your sons on this memory maker! Todd |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
You know, this would be a great addition to the MCACN show. Have an "Adult" Pinewood Derby contest.
Maybe we could get Linda Vaughn to be the official starter. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Working with my sone on his last derby car. Wheels/ axles, weight, and alignment. Get the plastic ruler that shows square axle placement, proper space between body.
I bought 8 ft of track and elevation to practice the car on. Run the car and make sure that you get the graphite worked in. |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
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STREET ROD class is for cars that closely resemble actual cars. Kinda neat! |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...psspkwkm81.jpg
I went on a test/tune this afternoon and had a blast! The white car had super light wheels to get out of the gate fast, but one hub broke from the sudden stop. It was probably a good idea that car went away quickly. That one run had the Batman car covered by 2 lenghts! Batman, other than the stainless axles is within the rules of most packs. If I used 4 stock axles for ballast I would consider it 100% legal. Other than the one loss to the White car, Batman rulled the races today. We started to get comments about having the car checked out. I plan on pulling a Smokey Yunick and running Batman at another track, but it was fun to make these guys nervious. The Robin car lost only to Batman. This car has a proper wheel alignment with axle cant. I took a file and ground down the axle so that just the area near the nail head was actually touching the wheel bore. Minimizes surface area for friction. After a basic polish of the axles up to only 1500 sand paper and a light wheel bore prep, that was all it took for this car to be competitive. By the time I got to the Blue car with getting it properly weighted, I only got 1 run it, so not much to say there. The kids enjoyed putting the weight on the cars. My son called it putting and engine on. We used Tungsten cubes on the two cars, but the ones with visual weights had a cool factor like a Tunnel Ram! How's the car shaping up Marlin? |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
We just got the car kit an hour ago, along with the rules sheet - will post that tomorrow to see what you guys think [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif[/img] Danny just wants to have fun, that will change if he has a slow car!! So, we need to build this thing to win, I have a full-on car prep kit coming from a fellow member.
Danny's best comment: "Dad, can we make it look like my Camaro?" Love it! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
All in the axles and weight.
Polish the cr*p out of the axles, and then polish them again. Graphite the axles well and then run them in so that the graphite is on both the axle surface and the plastic wheel hub surface, make sure the alignment of the axles is correct (the wheel can turn freely, not too tight), sand the casting flash off the wheels, put the weight in the rear of the car, (if you don't have one get a digital mail scale so that you can make adjustments as you build the car and get right on the 5.0 ounce limit). The fastest cars I have seen are the simplest designs (flat or wedge shapes). Oh yeah - don't forget to have fun with your son. Jake |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
If I was thinking like Smokey, i would use the axles supplied as part of the ballast, then run a set of trick axles on the wheels.
The fact they don't mention the axle slots must be used means you have a lot of control on your car layout and I read it is being okay to drill for a canted wheel set-up. I would run with 3 wheels touching. I like mold #10 for wheels, but there are several known to be better. |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
I would love to know if the Krytox sold on the BSA website is approved for your race. If you use a Teflon prep and some Krytox the car will fly! That combo will be dry and on race day it will not slow down like a graphite car does- should you have to make multiple runs. Clearly, I am showing my bias.
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Should I remove wood from the front of the car, and add weight to the back of it?
Does it matter if the weight is under the car or on top? |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Before you do anything, start with setting up your alignment. From there you can do what you want for a shape.
The car is far from 5 oz, so no need to remove wood just to allow weight on the back end. Build a shape you like and add the weight on the back end to get to 5 oz. Only mistake would be to not have the rear wheels as high on the hill as possible. Those rules should bring some pretty competitive cars. FYI, I've got one of those aluminum blocks if you guys decide to go for it! <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/jlwQfL0cOiE"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/jlwQfL0cOiE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
I can see this getting out of hand already.... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Let's talk after you open the box ...
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Thanks Jeff! We have now gone 'all in' with this thing! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]
I was up late speed-reading through the Speed Secrets book, tonight I will make a plan, and this weekend we will execute. Danny's race is on Feb. 1st. http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h6...psfd006d9d.jpg |
Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img]
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Re: Pinewood Derby Anyone?
Some rookie questions:
1. Wouldn't the canted wheel design cause the wheel to constantly rub against the nail head, causing constant friction? 2. Is it a good idea to apply graphite to the body - right where the wheel hub could contact it? 3. Is the 5 oz weight limit a minimum or a maximum? 4. Why would Danny's car come pre-cut? It is not a rectangular block of wood, will post pic tomorrow. 5. What is the probability of a 'tear down'? 6. I'm considering building 2 cars, one with less 'investment' just in case.... what is the advice? 7. How do you test these things? Can I build a test track and install in the race trailer? 8. What type of timing mechanism is utilized, or is it visual? Many more ?'s to come... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] |
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