LS6 Build Sheet
 

I recently discovered a LS6 in hiding that I was able to pass on to my buddy in Arizona for a full and correct restoration.

I ran across this car on eBay - my question is about the build sheet. To me it looks too clean and too perfect to have come from a 43 year old car. The one in my car was almost dust but still can be saved. This one looks like it was just put in the car last week.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Chev...=item4ac4e3f977

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...buildsheet.jpg

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Thats a real build sheet that came of the back of a door panel.
They hold up well on Atlanta built cars as they are always pasted on the back of a door panel were yours came from the under side of a gas tank exposed to the elements much more.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Ive had a few atlants sheets, and they come out of the car really nice like stated above....i had one with absolutely no stains...looked like it was a week old, not 40 years...still pretty white...

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Here is a sample of an Atlanta build sheet still glued to the back of the door panel from an SS 396 car.

A lot of them are very clean [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Thanks for the information - you learn something every day.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XXXBlackLs6M22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A lot of them are very clean [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] </div></div>

Agree. Depends a lot on the specifics; this one is from above the fuel tank of my low mileage Michigan based '65 Pontiac:


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...uildsheet2.jpg

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

tri power &quot;pontiac&quot; huh?....

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marxjunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tri power &quot;pontiac&quot; huh?.... </div></div>

Yep.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XXXBlackLs6M22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A lot of them are very clean [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] </div></div>

Agree. Depends a lot on the specifics; this one is from above the fuel tank of my low mileage Michigan based '65 Pontiac:


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...uildsheet2.jpg


</div></div>

Wow, that build sheet is so clean for being on the tank. My 69 L-71 vette had a barely readable buildsheet. I did find a 'like-new' build sheet in the glove box of a 68 Camaro convertible in with the owners manual package....ya never know !!

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Here is another clean sheet from inside the door panel on an Atlanta built LS6..

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Lakewood wasn't exclusive to the door panel,and other plants put em there as well.
You could find them in different places,like on top of the deck tray,inside the head liner,behind the radio,a top the tank,in the seat springs &amp; seat backs,or under the carpet,like this one,also built in Atlanta.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

You all probably already know that all these build sheets were supposed to be removed and thrown away at the end of the line &quot;de-papering&quot; process.

The only reason we find them is because it was easier to leave them in place and build the car around them. That's why they often have tar sprayed over them, screws shot threw them, trapped in the springs of the seat, etc.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Wow, that build sheet is so clean for being on the tank. </div></div>

A result of easy livin'....

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You all probably already know that all these build sheets were supposed to be removed and thrown away at the end of the line &quot;de-papering&quot; process.

The only reason we find them is because it was easier to leave them in place and build the car around them. That's why they often have tar sprayed over them, screws shot threw them, trapped in the springs of the seat, etc.

K
</div></div>

Never heard that before, care to elaborate?

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Igosplut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Never heard that before, care to elaborate? </div></div>

Glad to (hopefully) help -

Build sheets are used to communicate specific option content to the remote areas of the vehicle assembly plant. Typically, that's rear axle pick/prep (where the correct axle is selected, shocks added, brake lines added, etc), motor line (where the correct engine is selected and hung on the carrier, trans added, accessory drive added, etc), seat cushion room (usually in a remote area due to fire concerns), front end sheet metal assembly, radiator support, etc. All of these separate &quot;feeder&quot; lines support the main line via carriers that provide the sub assembled material in sequence. Build sheets also ride along on the frame (main line) and body (trim line).

Naturally, by the time the car gets to the end of final it has accumulated quite a stack of papers. The individual build sheets and inspection tickets are reviewed and, once all the repairs are completed and bought off, the car is &quot;de-papered&quot; and &quot;de-stickered&quot; and readied for shipment. Because of the volume of papers (several documents supporting one complete vehicle per minute, in some cases) the records are not kept but discarded.

As I mentioned, however, human nature being what it is - many times the paperwork is simply left wherever it landed and the car constructed around it. Those are the ones we find (hopefully). More often we don't. Also - the use and/or placement of build sheets was not a &quot;Central Office&quot; defined or engineering controlled task; it was left to the individual plant's discretion. We sometimes find the build sheet for the wrong car (ie, the car in front, or several cars back) because of the resultant lack of priority.


Make sense?

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Makes sense, but I was under the impression from your statement that there was a reason (like a office directive) than they not be left in the cars. I've stripped many cars in the past and saved a whole bunch of build sheets from different GM lines, and agree they can be everywhere. And I've found two, and the wrong car (A friend had an factory stock LS6 he bought in 1977 from the original owner, and when he found the sheet it was for a 307 powerglide car a VIN behind it. Most curious to me (having Novas) is the (I've never seen it) Willow run cars only ever had the small broadcast sheets, never the bigger-more elaborate build sheets.....

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

I have yet to see a memo or tech bulletin that states build sheets were to be removed from a car and thrown away in the trash at the factory as they went out the door. What I have seen is numerous examples of Atlanta cars (Lakewood plant) where they were clearly permanently affixed , i.e, glued to the inside of door panels which would seem to void the urban myth that they were to be removed and thrown away. In addition, build sheets are routinely found on top of gas tanks for Van Nuys built cars or under the tar paper for Arlington cars. I don't doubt that cars were cleaned up as they left the plant or detailed on the dealer lots upon delivery, but I don't get where this story that the build sheets were to be thrown away like some super secret document lives in urban folklore. To the lucky guys who find them in their cars, they seem to me to be just part of the build process. Too many exist that are consistently found in the same locations to counter the belief they were meant to be thrown away. JMO.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Igosplut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Makes sense, but I was under the impression from your statement that there was a reason (like a office directive) than they not be left in the cars. I've stripped many cars in the past and saved a whole bunch of build sheets from different GM lines, and agree they can be everywhere. And I've found two, and the wrong car (A friend had an factory stock LS6 he bought in 1977 from the original owner, and when he found the sheet it was for a 307 powerglide car a VIN behind it. Most curious to me (having Novas) is the (I've never seen it) Willow run cars only ever had the small broadcast sheets, never the bigger-more elaborate build sheets..... </div></div>

No different from cleaning out the extra bolts, screws, clips, gum wrappers, etc, that accumulate in the car. It was expected to happen, but didn't necessarily happen.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have yet to see a memo or tech bulletin that states build sheets were to be removed from a car and thrown away in the trash at the factory as they went out the door. What I have seen is numerous examples of Atlanta cars (Lakewood plant) where they were clearly permanently affixed , i.e, glued to the inside of door panels which would seem to void the urban myth that they were to be removed and thrown away. In addition, build sheets are routinely found on top of gas tanks for Van Nuys built cars or under the tar paper for Arlington cars. I don't doubt that cars were cleaned up as they left the plant or detailed on the dealer lots upon delivery, but I don't get where this story that the build sheets were to be thrown away like some super secret document lives in urban folklore. To the lucky guys who find them in their cars, they seem to me to be just part of the build process. Too many exist that are consistently found in the same locations to counter the belief they were meant to be thrown away. JMO. </div></div>

We should check the PAD sheets for that direction; I suspect that is where it would appear.

I appreciate your opinion, and your zeal, but I am starting my 35th year at GM. I've worked in Vehicle Assembly, Product Engineering, Production Engineering, Product Development (in both Milford and Mesa), Program Management and New Product Launch. I've spent time in every GM Full Size truck plant in North America- eight years at Flint -and one small car plant [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] .

I would recommend you check out &quot;Echos of Norwood&quot; for additional commentary and photos of the de-papering process. The build sheet I posted from my GTO is the only one I've ever found in any of my collector cars. I followed several of them down the line as they were built and never thought (until now) to keep any of that paperwork.

It's not &quot;urban myth&quot; when you live it every day. Nor is it &quot;super secret&quot;. They were just pieces of paper back then.

I stood at the end of the final line one day last week for about a half hour and watched them throw away every piece of paper from every car, so I don't believe the process has changed much.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am starting my 35th year at GM. I've worked in Vehicle Assembly, Product Engineering, Production Engineering, Product Development (in both Milford and Mesa), Program Management and New Product Launch. I've spent time in every GM Full Size truck plant in North America- eight years at Flint -and one small car plant </div></div>

To that end, do you have any idea why the willow run cars have the smaller broadcast sheets rather than the norm?

And, yes I agree. Years ago they were just so much waste paper (after the fact) I've found other factory papers also (mostly under the carpet)..

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

While I respect your opinion, I would caution you to be careful on fact versus belief. Your statement <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;that all these build sheets were supposed to be removed and thrown away at the end of the lin</span>e&quot; </span>implies a factory procedure to specifically remove and throw away build sheets that is clearly contrary to the many that exist today. While it makes sense to clean out a car before it leaves the factory, nobody has yet provided a corporate directive that documents the requirement to remove build sheets or not. Hence, the belief they were supposed to be removed is not supported unless you can prove that. As you say, they were just pieces of paper back then. Hard to remove ones that are glued inside panels or under the carpet as they simply became part of the car.

Would you please provide some kind of proof that supports your statement that build sheets were supposed to be removed and thrown away? Thanks.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I respect your opinion,</div></div>

Thank you -

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is clearly contrary to the many that exist today.</div></div>

When you say &quot;numerous&quot;, or &quot;many&quot;, you mean between 4 and 5 million, right? I mean, I watched roughly 1.1 million trucks go by while I was leaning on the foreman's desk at Flint Assembly during the first eight years of my career alone. Roughly one per minute for 8 years.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> While it makes sense to clean out a car before it leaves the factory, nobody has yet provided a corporate directive that documents the requirement to remove build sheets or not. </div></div>

I will check some representative PAD sheet for various programs to see what I can find.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hard to remove ones that are glued inside panels or under the carpet as they simply became part of the car.</div></div>

Absolutely. I thought I had said as much; inside the door trim or on top of the fuel tank= car gets built up around them. Loose papers inside, inspection tickets, stickers, etc, = thrown away.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been in a GM assembly plant within the last few weeks and stood at the final line and watched the workers throw away every loose piece of paper they found in the vehicle.

By the way, I've learned my lesson now: I keep the paperwork from the interesting/significant ones.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Igosplut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To that end, do you have any idea why the willow run cars have the smaller broadcast sheets rather than the norm? </div></div>

No - just local plant preference.

You will find it varies within the same plant, too, as they tailor the document to meet their specific needs for that assembly area.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Great discussion guys.

Do you guys know where 1969 Fremont Chevelle Build sheets ended up, (if they stayed in the car of course)

Ryan

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will check some representative PAD sheet for various programs to see what I can find. </div></div>

Thank you. Since this thread is dealing with the LS6 build sheet, any information regarding that 1970 era would be welcome by all, especially documented factory procedures. The passion around this car and era is the subject of frequent discussions as you can imagine so anything that is relevant to procedures from 43 years ago is very valuable and I'm sure you can understand must also pass the scrutiny test before it becomes accepted. Blanket statements are the toughest so that is why I challenged you on the build sheet process. I have yet to see any proof if they were supposed to be thrown away, kept in the car, or it simply did not matter back then. When somebody takes a specific stance on the issue, I would like to know why and I appreciate the debate in good spirit!

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

I can tell you for a fact that the build sheet and car are real. That build sheet was glued to the back of the dr. Door panel when I dropped it off to Joey. I sold that car to Jen-jacs in Georgia back in 2007 I bought it from a friend that bought it in bay city mi in around 1993. I was with him whe hebought it All the sheet metal on that car except for the dr fender where NOS including hood,quarters,door skins and pass fender,trunk. Would have had a NOS drivers fender but when I checked all the boxes when I got it home it had 2 nos pass fenders. The guy I bought it from had it dipped at a place in Detroit. When I sold that car to Joey. It was dipped and epoxy dipped and ready to go. Had the numbers matching M-22 with it. I went back to the guy in bay city that my buddy bought it from and he still had it.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Thanks Rick

I will look soon

I think I am thread stealing.....

Ryan

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ryan1969Chevelle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great discussion guys.

Do you guys know where 1969 Fremont Chevelle Build sheets ended up, (if they stayed in the car of course)

Ryan </div></div>

Not specifically, but check the usual suspects (top of the tank, in the door, under the carpet, in the springs of the seat cushion, in the A pillar, behind the headliner, etc.).

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Perfect

Thanks

Ryan

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Great info, Keith, thanks! (didn't come across any in the family Pontiac).

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

I have the build sheet in question from the start of this thread in front of me and it still has the door panel cardboard on the back of it. Jen jacs cut the door panel around the build sheet.. Better that than risk damage to it.. I bought the car back today. Same as it was when I sold it to Jen jacs a few years ago. Primer faded and dirty but pretty much same shape. With a few extra parts. This car is in the LS-6 registry. And I know the history and previous owners back to the early 90's

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Bruce, I'm having a hard time following the ownership history of the car.....You live in Michigan and found the car which was delivered new to a dealer in Michigan. Then you sold the car to Joey in Garden City, GA, then it ends up in Ohio where &quot;Ron&quot; puts it on eBay. You buy it from Ron and the car is headed back or already in Michigan again. Is that correct?

That car has traveled more miles in the past few years than any of mine!

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

Here's how it goes. Car was sold new in Bay City MI. Car lived it's whole life there. A friend of mine bought it from a guy in Bay City I went with him to pick it up and hauled it on my trailer. That was I think 1992. At the time we picked it up all the NOS stickers were on all the sheet metal panels. Some installed on car some in boxes. My buddy gutted the car to an empty shell and had a place in Detroit dip the car and then had it dipped in e-coat primer. When he got it back it looked like a new body. The car sat that way in a garage until late 2006 or 7 can't remember for sure. He asked me if I would help him sell it. When he told me what he wanted I bought it. After figuring what it would cost to do the car correctly I realized my pockets weren't that deep so I put it up for sale on team chevelle. Joey at Jen jacs called. At the time I had no idea who he was. We struck a deal I delivered the car to him a couple of days before Christmas in either 2006 or 7. I assumed he still had it. Then I saw this thread about a build sheet and recognized it.Thanks by they way to whoever started the thread!!!! I checked the pic I had saved in my computer to refresh my memory and as I suspected it was the car I had sold. So I checked the e-bay ad car was pretty much how I sold it. So since im much better of financially now i thought i would take another shot at it Called the guy went down today and now I own it again. Guy I bought it from today said Jen jacs had it on e-bay about 5 years ago and he bought it from them. Didn't mean to write a book here but hope it cleared up the chain of ownership.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

That's not a broadcast sheet. I don't know what those were called, it has the info from the cowl tag, with some options and were mostly used by the person putting the seat cover on. I have some Chevy 2 broadcast sheets from 68/69 (Body and Chassis Broadcast copies), they used those and the cards for each car.

When I took a tour of the Flint plant 2 years ago, I asked the tour guide what they do with all the paper. He said it gets thrown away. There's a spot on the line where most of that stuff gets removed, papers and inspection stickers, etc.

Warren

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

its official name is a GMAD...i believe...

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAR6569</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's not a broadcast sheet. I don't know what those were called, it has the info from the cowl tag, with some options and were mostly used by the person putting the seat cover on. I have some Chevy 2 broadcast sheets from 68/69 (Body and Chassis Broadcast copies), they used those and the cards for each car.</div></div>

Not sure which document you are referring to, but the one I posted is in fact called a build sheet. Could also be called the build manifest.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAR6569</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I took a tour of the Flint plant 2 years ago, I asked the tour guide what they do with all the paper. He said it gets thrown away. There's a spot on the line where most of that stuff gets removed, papers and inspection stickers, etc.</div></div>

I used to give those tours at Flint Assembly (34 years ago).

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marxjunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its official name is a GMAD...i believe... </div></div>

Not that I've ever hear. But - I never worked in a GMAD plant. Flint was a Fisher Body/Chevrolet marriage and was completely Chevrolet managed by the time I started. All the plants I worked in after that were GM Truck and Bus.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would you please provide some kind of proof that supports your statement that build sheets were supposed to be removed and thrown away? Thanks. </div></div>

Reporting back with a quick update -

I have heard back from my contacts at Flint Assembly, Fort Wayne Assembly, Arlington Assembly and Detroit-Hamtramck. They have provided Manufacturing Process Sheets which define cleaning the car of any extraneous labels, stickers, papers, build documents, loose material, etc. on either the final line or &quot;care&quot; (pre shipping) lines.

I also asked owners of Assembly Manuals (PAD/PDMs) for 66/67 A car, 68/69 A car, 70-72 A car, 73-87 Truck and 67/69 F car. The A car guys have reported finding pages documenting key placement and window sticker (Mulroney Label) location but nothing relative to clean up. I have not heard back from the vintage Truck or F car guys.

K

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

My dad worked at a Chev. dealer for 30+ years getting new cars ready for delivery.Wash,wax &amp; undercoating.Clean all stickers from windows. He used to bring home a stack of build sheets every once in awhile so the kids could use them to draw on,or use them to start the wood stove.When i worked there in the summer i always found them in with the wheel cover packaging,or laying on the floor.Can't remember any special cars-just a few Z/28's and Vettes{Mid 70&quot;s}.Most of these cars/trucks came from the Janesville plant.

Re: LS6 Build Sheet
 

I'll add my 2 cents. I have worked for a GM dealership for 32 years and before the Obama/GM debacle we had 3 showrooms and five franchises including Chevrolet. I sold new cars (as id my dad, grandfather, brother) there for quite some time, and am now the wholesale mgr. I also ran the new-car get-ready dept. for 3 years, and like one of the above contributors added, the cars were (I want to say thoroughly) cleaned and prepped before retail delivery. We didn't go as far as removing door panels, carpet, or gas tanks, but any paperwork that was found in the cars was discarded. When the cars arrived on the haulers, the drivers had a manifest with the options listed on it and we at the dealership had to check the car against said manifest to insure all the options for each particular car were present. This was an important step in receiving the cars from GM, because if something was missing (and it was from time-to-time) we only had so long to file a claim with the factory. The driver got a copy and the dealer got a copy after we (the dealer) signed off. We threw that paper in the car, and it, along with anything that was loose or visible to the clean-up dept. was thrown away. When I was in sales and we/I delivered a new car to the retail purchaser, any paperwork the clean-up shop missed was thrown away. Often the customer requested that the window sticker be removed and thrown away. It technically was/is against the law to remove that sticker without the buyer's permission. So the amount of build sheets that do exist today is somewhat remarkable considering the amount of people that had the chance to discard them.
Not to deviate from the subject of this thread, but I feel this is also an important fact and could tie in to this discussion; I mainly collect Oldsmobiles and Lansing built cars (the only factory that produced the &quot;W&quot; cars) have YET to have a build sheet like the above surface. I can't say for sure about any of the Chevrolet plants, but in all the years and all the &quot;W&quot; cars, not one &quot;verified&quot; build sheet has ben found. The &quot;key punch knock out&quot; or &quot;broadcast cards&quot; have, but no &quot;build sheets&quot;, so maybe some of the Chevy plants that build LS-6s could be the same way.