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Letter from Joel Rosen
I want to share my thoughts on the Letter of Authenticity process for those who care
In his 70s, Joel still owns and manages a small business to stay active and pay their bills. He is constantly called by both collectors and speculators to advise on whether a car is real or not. In return for his time, he charges a fee to review information provided to him as well as check his own files from Motion Performance. His time is valuable and can’t be returned...why should his fee? If that isn’t enough, a letter recognizing a car's connection to MP will create substantial value for the car's owner. Joel doesn't charge extra for documents that he locates and is happy to provide them to the owner. He doesn't charge more if the car is real. Seems very fair to me. Skeptics question the breath of information he has on Motion cars. He has openly stated in private and public forums that his documentation is not complete. 40+yr old files exist but aren’t organized digitally and some were destroyed in an office fire. Unfortunately, he can’t search by customer, VIN, year or body style. The process takes time. I’ve heard some people question why he hasn’t made a list of his cars available to the public. Same reason the state doesn’t give away winning lottery numbers. We live in a free country, thank g-d, and its his right and he isn’t hurting anyone. Joel provides letters based on his findings. If there is substantial evidence that a car was sourced through Baldwin or several other dealerships and modified when new or after by MP, his letter will say it. Evidence can include: order forms, invoices, NICB reports, owner history, vintage photos, physical evidence, etc. Physical evidence alone is not enough to confirm a BM car. If the evidence is inconclusive, his letter will say so. Accountability falls on him and there are big dollars involved. An "inconclusive" or “maybe” letter is just that. Buyers beware. These cars become "story cars" that could have been modified after new using catalog parts. Joel doesn’t want to have liability if a car is proven otherwise at a later time. Joel is professional and explains process up front. He told me years ago to do my homework before beginning the process and paying the fee. He is very happy to learn of new cars being discovered. Unfortunately, he has had to deal with some difficult personalities over the years. In my opinion, he is one of the “musclecar greats” and has given many of us a lot to smile about. Lucky for us, he is still around to tell stories and join us at events like MCACN Wish i could have enjoyed it back in the day! |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
That was excellent Adam. Thank you.
Rick |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
I think some people lose sight of the fact that the most important thing (back then) was to get the cars modified/built. To race, and have fun. Not to be buying something that was going to have to be "proven" by paperwork, and be obsessed over to prove origin. People are damn lucky he didn't toss the records he DID have left.
On a side note, one of my customers mentioned the fact that he used to have Motion work on his car back then (a 69 Z/28 with a aluminum head 454) He made mention of Joels boat that had twin big-blocks. I lent him the Motion book and he immediately got lost in it... |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
Very nicely put Adam. I think a lot of people need to sit down and think issues through from beginning to end and hear both sides before they develope a conclusion. Too often people think the worst and automatically think people are out to screw others when in fact they are not, they are only trying to protect their assets and their backside due to as you said the liability. One thing that keeps coming to mind with gentlemen like Joel is we REALLY need to appreciate them while they are on this earth as once they are gone we cannot go back.
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Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
Good discussion ! In my time at Yenko in the 60's the only mission was to sell cars ,prep race cars etc. The really important " Paperwork " was the money part...bringing income to the operation. As I quoted Donna Mae in my book " We never expected to become part of automotive history ! "
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Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
Actually, late '60s, early '70s Yenko was concerned with paperwork as well as the other stuff you mention, as to sell his cars in volume he needed to get them approved by various sanctioning bodies, such as SCCA, NHRA, AHRA, and others. If not for Yenko keeping much of the paperwork associated with his cars, as well as keeping the paperwork until it could be rescued by others, Yenko owners might be facing a much tougher time documenting their cars, such as Motion, Harrell, etc.
Judging by what we have, some useful, some just interesting reading, and what I know others have, appears Yenko documented ( and saved) everything, Example of interesting, Don once worked with Weslake out of England in an effort to produce a better SBC cylinder head? |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atuckman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Joel is professional and explains process up front. He told me years ago to do my homework before beginning the process and paying the fee. He is very happy to learn of new cars being discovered. <span style="font-weight: bold">Unfortunately, he has had to deal with some difficult personalities over the years.</span> In my opinion, he is one of the “musclecar greats” and has given many of us a lot to smile about. Lucky for us, he is still around to tell stories and join us at events like MCACN Wish i could have enjoyed it back in the day! </div></div> Can't argue this! |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
I think when Joel was scheduled to attend the SCR, some of us had heard the not so flattering stories about him, thus we were on edge. Nothing could have been farther from the truth, as he was very helpful, informative and entertaining, even throwing in some witty humor (when quizzed about Yenko). Since that time, whether by phone, email or at MACAN, Joel has been nothing but a joy to be around, at least for me.
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Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
Not sure I agree with your assessment of Joel's documentation process, Adam. First of all, he doesn't have or share 'actual invoices' for work performed by Motion, nor does he visually inspect any cars, but rather rely's on pictures sent to him. Why would anyone trust his memory to either confirm or disclaim a car based on this?
Motion cars that have actual invoice paperwork are certainly special vehicles, but stickers, valve covers, fender badges etc, etc don't necessarily make them real Motion car's. It is MY OPINION that Joel has blessed car's put together with catalog parts / insufficient evidence or perhaps because he has had a personal relationship with the owner/buyer/seller. Again, this is only my opinion, but I feel certain that I'm not the only one who feels that some of the 'letter documented' cars are not real. |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
At least Dan got a "maybe" letter. I agree, the ad could have been worded better, but I have seen Dan help many people find cars. Roger and his Dick Harrell COPO come to mind.
On the Curry X66 camaro we have, after the fee was paid and Joel determined that it "could" be, he refused to give any letter at all. I even stated that I would take a "no" letter. For that kind of money I would expect something in writing, yes, no or maybe. Something. No would have been just fine. Was'nt there something about a Chevelle a while back that got a no or a maybe and then when it changed hands became a documented Phase III car? Memory could be off, and I am sure I don't have the facts but maybe someone here can refresh me? Rich Pern |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
If someone had a catalog car - and had documentation showing the purchase of the parts from Motion - then having Joel bless the car would be OK, i assume?
Is this a fair assumption? One the other side - if you have the documentation of the purchase of the parts - then why do you need Joel to bless the car?? Maybe like the guys having jerry Macneish certify a X33 camaro as real Z28?? I would be upset if because a car had no avail data via Joel and once it changed hands, it sas then blessed - (without further data avail) ... That would clearly make the process seem to be influenced by certain people and placing double on the integrity of the certification. |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
Jude-
not sure how you could conclude that joel doesn't have or share invoices or available information on cars? can you share how you can say this with certainty? i think you are factually incorrect. also, my understanding is that Joel is not opposed to inspecting a car in person. have you heard otherwise? has he turned down someone willing to ship a car to him or pay for his expenses to visit a car on site? He is 70+ yrs old, has had back surgery and runs a business day to day. Again, i'm pleased he is still willing to spend time assisting us and the hobby. Rich- sounds like you had a disappointing experience. Sorry to hear that. If you wish to discuss further, would love to understand what you shared with Joel (owner history, NICB, physical evidence, etc) to learn more. Im also curious why he didn't write a letter. |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
Ed, I think most of us would consider a car with Motion bolt-on parts more of a clone than an in-house Motion Perf modified car with a huge diff in it's value.
Adam, I have a copy of the ebay listing for 136370F180xxx from when it was in AZ. The seller stated that he spoke with Joel, paid the $1500, but he 'could not locate any records on that car or many other cars he modified 30 yrs ago'. I know that after it was purchased, a more complete catalog of physical evidence was given to Joel and then it received a letter confirming it's provenance. I'm in agreement that this one is real and think nicb could have helped persuade him to sign off on it. Been a while, but I also recall an Iceland Vette, a Buick, 396 Nova and recently heard that the ebay Iowa Chevelle got blessed. While they all may be Motion, I don't ever recall seeing or hearing about any actual work order invoices....and, that's my point. Regarding Dan's car, one would think Joel could remember it very easily....color change from Seq Green to black, dyed interior from green to black, poss winged spoiler/holes in deck lid, tow tabs, HD radiator, special shifter and it was a 68 Nova. Clearly one would remember a car like this, or say 'NO-not one we did'...but maybe? C'mon |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atuckman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rich- sounds like you had a disappointing experience. Sorry to hear that. If you wish to discuss further, would love to understand what you shared with Joel (owner history, NICB, physical evidence, etc) to learn more. Im also curious why he didn't write a letter.
</div></div> If you know him then maybe you can ask him? I've never had a call returned, but I did have several people call and ask to buy the car before I got the N*CB report. Mr Brother and I, after getting the maybe, called Joel for a few months wanting a letter, along with the previous owner of the car. I even offered an additional paperwork fee if that's what it took to get the letter. I'd still like that letter, yes, no or maybe. Since then I have been able to get an N*CB report on this car, and it came back Curry Chevrolet, near Baldwin. I suspect it may have been just a catalog or brought in car, who knows but Curry did advertise HiPo cars. I really don't care if the answer is a no. It is what it is, but after paying good money I expect some form of paperwork. That's why I personally have a bad taste about this. At the same time, I also paid Jerry to inspect the car and got paperwork and a report. Of course, nothing to do with motion, but that the car is an authentic Hugger Orange, X66D80, Radio Delete (I know incorrect term) car in "Day 2 Trim". Point is, I expect something for my money, not just a phone call. Car is N661188 Dealer Showed as 27079 http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ttag.jpg http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ssspring.jpg http://www.69lm1.com/pics/69RH.jpg http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ad.jpg RichP |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69LM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atuckman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rich- sounds like you had a disappointing experience. Sorry to hear that. If you wish to discuss further, would love to understand what you shared with Joel (owner history, NICB, physical evidence, etc) to learn more. Im also curious why he didn't write a letter.
</div></div> If you know him then maybe you can ask him? I've never had a call returned, but I did have several people call and ask to buy the car before I got the N*CB report. Mr Brother and I, after getting the maybe, called Joel for a few months wanting a letter, along with the previous owner of the car. I even offered an additional paperwork fee if that's what it took to get the letter. I'd still like that letter, yes, no or maybe. Since then I have been able to get an N*CB report on this car, and it came back Curry Chevrolet, near Baldwin. I suspect it may have been just a catalog or brought in car, who knows but Curry did advertise HiPo cars. I really don't care if the answer is a no. It is what it is, but after paying good money I expect some form of paperwork. That's why I personally have a bad taste about this. At the same time, I also paid Jerry to inspect the car and got paperwork and a report. Of course, nothing to do with motion, but that the car is an authentic Hugger Orange, X66D80, Radio Delete (I know incorrect term) car in "Day 2 Trim". Point is, I expect something for my money, not just a phone call. Car is N661188 Dealer Showed as 27079 http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ttag.jpg http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ssspring.jpg http://www.69lm1.com/pics/69RH.jpg http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ad.jpg RichP </div></div> Rich, That Camaro looks awesome!!!! |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
My only contribution to the conversation is that back in the early 90's I went o look at a Motion built(in 76) Phase 3 72 Camaro. It was an original paint car with every nut and bolt original,it just needed fresh paint. The car had every Motion invoice for the conversion as well as all the later upkeep done at Motion. None of the paperwork had a VIN or license plate number on it,just "Blue Camaro". Since the car was so original and untouched with every piece from the day it was converted in it's original dusty state,the car didn't need any furher authentication,but had the owner sent to Joel for papers,it would not have included any numbers specific info. BTW,the owner cut up the car and scrapped it. He wanted $5500 for it and got no takers,and took the engine out and sold it to a local drag racer. t was such a nice car. It had wheel flares all around with wide turbine mags(road race look) and the only thing wrong with the entire car was the filler work on the flares was starting to bubble. he rest of the car was spotless and it ran like new. What a shame. I still have a copy of the paperwork somewhere.
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Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichSchmidt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My only contribution to the conversation is that back in the early 90's I went o look at a Motion built(in 76) Phase 3 72 Camaro. It was an original paint car with every nut and bolt original,it just needed fresh paint. The car had every Motion invoice for the conversion as well as all the later upkeep done at Motion. None of the paperwork had a VIN or license plate number on it,just "Blue Camaro". Since the car was so original and untouched with every piece from the day it was converted in it's original dusty state,the car didn't need any furher authentication,but had the owner sent to Joel for papers,it would not have included any numbers specific info. BTW,the owner cut up the car and scrapped it. He wanted $5500 for it and got no takers,and took the engine out and sold it to a local drag racer. t was such a nice car. It had wheel flares all around with wide turbine mags(road race look) and the only thing wrong with the entire car was the filler work on the flares was starting to bubble. he rest of the car was spotless and it ran like new. What a shame. I still have a copy of the paperwork somewhere. </div></div>
Could you send it to me? Thanks, Dan |
Re: Letter from Joel Rosen
One of these days I will find it. I have a ton of old stuff in my parent's basement that I need to sort thru before they throw it out. I have mentioned this paper a few times,and when I find it I will probably start it's own tread here.
Just in case you were looking for something specific,the best I can remember was that the name of the owner that had the conversion done was something along the line of Emelio Marciano from Patterson NJ. If I remember correctly the car started life as a 1972 blue base model 307 automatic powered car (VIN would have been 1Q87F2N). They kept the original 10 bolt(not sure if it was a factory posi or the added the posi) and put 4.10 gears in it and added the Superbite suspention. I believe the trans was swapped to a th400. It was called a Phase 3,but I think it might have been listed as 475 hp not 550. I think it was a 10.25:1 LS-6 crate motor with a cam and Torker intake on it with a 3 barrel 950 carb and fly eye air cleaner. I believe it had 15x10 Turbine mags under the wheel flares,it had S.W. gauges,and I believe a wood steering wheel. he job out the door with the Motion stripe paint was $10,600,that was just the conversion. It was done in 1976. |
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