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1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
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Just received my Sept 2012 Hemmings Muscle Machines, and a feature story is on Bill Wickman's 1967 Impala SS427, with a 425hp L-72. Supposedly, none were built, yet he has one, and has owned the car for 30 years. No documentation exists. Bill scored 992/1000 points at the MCACN show, and three judges agreed the car appeared to be authentic.
There's a mention that eleven L-72 full-sized cars were built, which includes Biscayne, Bel Air, Impala, Caprice, and station wagon models. But no one is sure if Bill's 4-speed Impala SS 427 is authentic, as there is no paperwork. Couldn't Bill trace the previous owner(s), or obtain the original title through a service, which should have the hp rating of his car? I seem to recall that titles state the hp rating, make and model, and the original title should show the 425 hp rating (or however the state of California describes it). What a cool car though, and I'll bet this thing flies. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif[/img] |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I'm pretty sure there are some records that document 11 engines were built.....But no paper trail as to where they ended up.....Can-Am cars???.....Jenkins????........
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
No RPO L72 for '67 B-Body but wasn't it John Z who posted here in the past about a '67 L72 Impala he had?
A factory engineering car w/ a 'Special' tag riveted on the inner also didn't he save the tag and post a pic of it here? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I stand corrected 17 engines......this was copied from another site that are discussing this exact car also
Tonawanda Engine Plant records show 17 L72 427/425 engines (Suffix codes ID and IK) built for full-size Chevy passenger cars but there are no existing records of the engines being shipped to assembly plants for installation. Documention from Fran Preve..former employee of Tonawanda engine plant. Same info listed in Alan Colvin's Chevrolet by the Numbers 1965-69 edition, page 44. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Here it is... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...593&page=4
I don't see the tag pic, must've been posted in a different thread? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Here's the thread w/ the pic, cruise down to John Z's attachment.
Note it's 'Special Order' on the tag, sorry not just special. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...opics/390413/5 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
The clue to wheather it's real lies in the cowl tag, there is one individual that has indepth knowledge of this vehicle in question. All indicators say it's a fraud.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I've read a lot of discussion on this car on the Impala SS427 website, and as Shaun says, there are substantial indications that it's a fraud.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Bill, with all due respect, "indications" are not proof. Since he has owned the car for 30 years, and does not seem inclined to sell it, who needs the drama?
On a more positive note, if you turn to page 39, there's a nice picture of the MOF, Brian Potter, with his new (for him) Chevelle, which won Best of Show at the Hemmings "Musclepalooza XV" car show. WAY TO GO, BRIAN [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] Andy |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
----Last MCACN when I saw this car the owner saw me looking pretty closely at it and out of no where said "Hey Bill, havent seen you in a few years". Back when I first moved to Chicago to take a position at Classic Motors I met Bill Wickman as half of the custom body and paint shop named "Royal Coach". That was in 1976! we hadnt seen each other since 1985 or so. We had numerous high end jobs done at Royal Coach in the ten years I spent in that area and I became good friends with Bills partner, Bill Vollmer (RIP), as well as Bill W. I know theres no paperwork, and I know the chances are slim, but I also know Bill and his history with this car and trust his statements in relation to it. Since its not for sale why not just enjoy a beautiful 67 427SS?.......Bill S
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I read that article on the car in the magazine, and I would have thought someone would have judged the car's engine stamping and broach marks as correct. The magazine also refered to judging by muscle car and corvette nationals (a sponser here) as being correct (and I think they would look at the pad closely).
I think its real and we should appreciate respecting the car as its presented. If it comes up for sale, then its a different story, and you have to look at the car seriously and nit pick it if it is really a one of one. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I read and enjoyed the article on the '67 SS 427 also. What a neat car, the one thing that caught my eye was the lack of the idler pulley that was normally used on the L72 cars. The SS 427/385 horse car would not have had the idler becasue it would have had hyd lifters but I would have thought the 425 would have had it. Just wondered
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
----Tommy,,,I would also at least wonder where it went, but you and I both know how many of those idler pulleys got trashed. Since those idlers are fairly easy to come by I actually think it points more to the car more likely being an original L72. Id be willing to bet that the original idler was gone before Bill got the car some 30 years ago.
----And,,,On the pad check, Bill Braun was one of those judges and hes pretty sharp on broachmarks and #s as hes been a judge for a long time at BG as well as MCACN, and other Corvette judging venues......Bill S |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Bill,
I think you are right, a lot of those pulleys got trashed when the bearing went out. There was a time when the pulley was still available but the bracket wasn't. I think both are available today. Some years ago I had a '66 L-72, the car still had the original motor but the pulley and bracket were gone when I bought the car. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
More info from Chevytalk...........
didit2 Said: aawtech Said: Except the 50 years later, and still none WITH PROOF have EVER surfaced? Not likely. The car in question is a fraud. Someone very knowledgeable has all the info on this car, and there are many concerns as to the authenticity of the car. As I have said over and over again, "show us some REAL documentation to prove the authenticity of it's existence, and we can put this whole situation to bed." Donny Donny, if you read my post, I said; Quote: I have no documentation nor do I have stories of any particular combo I wasn't referring to the car in question, nor was I saying any such car was built, in fact I specifically was quoting numbers from 1971 in reference to what Richard said about LS6 Chevelles of that year and just pointing out the discrepancies in their own record keeping, and the fact that leaves the door open for some possible unknown/undocumented cars to have existed. No claim that an particular car exists. Just that with over 5000 engines and transmissions that were coded for assembly line installation are basically unaccounted for and we really don't what they were or where they went. You don't know and neither do I. In fact obviously, neither does GM at this point. True, but this subject has been broached many, many time over the years. The L72 is not listed as an option on any ordering info in 1967, none have surfaced, and there are only 17 engines unaccounted for in this instance, not 5000. The original post was in fact about this car, and the car is in fact a complete FRAUD! It was a turbo 400 car as documented by the second set of trans mounts on the frame, the trans code on the cowl tag, it is NOT and SS427 car (no 4D, and it should be there from that plant), the tach face has been altered, the block casting number has been altered, plus many other items which I won't get into here. To leave this subject untouched and say " it could exist" is reckless at best. This car is NOT real in any sense of the word, is a total fabrication, and should not be the "what if" poster child of "it could exist". Those of us who own, and are really into these cars are in fact protective of the info and the righteous cars out there, and must react to these blatant frauds created by someone when they are presented as "the real deal". This car will get sold for crazy-carzy money if someone buys the "urban legend" of it's existence and thinks that this ONE is the missing link. Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
More....................
Richard Martin Said: Donny said: "The L72 is not listed as an option on any ordering info in 1967." How do you know that? Have you actually seen-- ALL-- the 1967 ordering info for the entire 1967 model year? The reason I ask is because I have 6 (six) Chevy printed 1971 Chevy dealer ordering info books and I may not have all of them. For example if I look at my August 1970 dated book for the new for '71 Chevy or even the April '71 dated book I can not make an accurate and honest judgement call of what was and what wasn't for the entire '71 model year. Richard Yes Richard, with all due respect, I believe that I actually do. I own an original copy of the 1967 Dealer ordering binder from the Philadelphia Zone office which includes all the inner departmental memos (it's about 4 inched thick) which has all the updates in it, plus there is nothing at the dealer level (RPO or LPO for that matter) in print showing the availability of option code L72 in a 1967 passenger model of any type as there is in 1966, 1968, and 1969. Is there the possibility that something exists? Sure there is, but it should have surfaced in the last 45 years more than likely. Like I said, this has been discussed at great lengths over at another site which I am very active on. We have 3 of the very best 1967 historians at that site, and it is understood that there were no L72 big cars built for the 1967 model year. I believe Mr. Colvin's book even states that there are no records of the 17 coded engines that were supposedly made every making it into a car. Again, if someone EVER comes up with a REAL car with REAL documentation, I'm certain that this would be re-investigated. The point of this original post is that the car in Ill. is supposed to be the "real deal" and there are so many holes in that car's make-up, it's absurd. The car is not even a real Z24 car which it supposedly is. The car is a complete, made-up FRAUD, period. I can't be any nicer or plainer than that, sorry. Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Don't shoot the Messenger.............
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't shoot the Messenger............. </div></div>
Amen to that. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
----Well,,,An expert seems to have spoken.....Bill S
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I don't know the owner and knew nothing about this particular car until recently. I know enough to say, never say never.
Anyone can be defrauded and potentially make a mistake. I think this is one cool Muscle car and I for one would like to know if GM ever produced one or more and/or whether or not this is a real car? This is after all just what discussion boards and these forums are all about? |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
The ChevyTalk discussion seems a bit too wrapped up w/ opinions based on personal collections of info and what was available RPO or otherwise for '67 model year B-body dealer orders.
Focusing only on what would fly as an order completely ignores what was actually produced, especially considering cars that may've been built for engineering or other purposes! A good example of a similar possibility is the factory built SBC 400 '69 we looked at in this thread a few days ago, a '70 motor in a '69 model car! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...564#Post497370 Although not one of the experts, I'm more a believer in John Z's story of the car he had than anything else I've ever seen on the whole '67 L72 B-body subject. Am I missing something and others don't feel the same? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I guess it's all a matter of "Perception".........and how deep one wants to get involved in the 1 of 1 cars falling out of the sky without any Doc's......But....I think that's what these car sites are about......I think I should stop now before I get into trouble again!!........
Ken |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I would not refute John Z's story either. What possible gain would he have to make such a claim. I'm sure there were many engineering cars that made it into consumer use and this car could be one of them. But, until someone comes up with proof beyond a shadow of doubt, none made it out on the production line. Like Stefano said, never say never, because anything was possible at that time as evidenced by many documented backdoor deals.
The truth needs to come out about this car though before someone gets burned; whether that is the buyer or the seller. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
From an earlier post from another site written by a 66-67 L-72 "Guru".....
True, but this subject has been broached many, many time over the years. The L72 is not listed as an option on any ordering info in 1967, none have surfaced, and there are only 17 engines unaccounted for in this instance, not 5000. The original post was in fact about this car, and the car is in fact a complete FRAUD! It was a turbo 400 car as documented by the second set of trans mounts on the frame, the trans code on the cowl tag, it is NOT and SS427 car (no 4D, and it should be there from that plant), the tach face has been altered, the block casting number has been altered, plus many other items which I won't get into here. To leave this subject untouched and say " it could exist" is reckless at best. This car is NOT real in any sense of the word, is a total fabrication, and should not be the "what if" poster child of "it could exist". Those of us who own, and are really into these cars are in fact protective of the info and the righteous cars out there, and must react to these blatant frauds created by someone when they are presented as "the real deal". This car will get sold for crazy-carzy money if someone buys the "urban legend" of it's existence and thinks that this ONE is the missing link. Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Kwizz,
That paragraph by Donny B. is right on and says it all! The trim tag does not lie,No 4D (Z24 code) turbo 400 production trans mounts, owner claims 2.73 gears (all 4spd. cars had 3.31'S or lower),Incorrect tach yellow line. to many red flags for it to be real. No mention of rear diff. code, would be another clue. Back door exec. car? how long will that hold water? Popcorn anyone? |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
This is what happens when you have no documentation.
Once he restored the car, he lost any chance of proving it came the way it sits. too bad. This car kinda reminds me of stories of what I heard about some old chevys being built in the janesville wisconsin plant. One guy told me, there were some pickups that had their engines swapped out while inside the plant. So there are some odd trucks running around with highest performance engines (that would have never came that way). Some signs would be left behind of the original build (lets say like a wrong trans mount). They would not have changed the build sheets either. But some of these '427' and '454' trucks made it out the door (perfectly date code correct to the vehicle). Some folks looked the other way. and no vin would be on the block (obviously). It just makes me wonder if this happened here on this impala (not a true factory sanctioned build). |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I worked for Bill Wickman for years,was there the day it came off the car carrier,Bill had me drop the tank go through the whole car looking for the build sheet,i came up empty,he has been researching this car ever since,Bill did not alter anything on this car i knew this info on this car 20 yrs ago nothing has changed this car is exactly what he says it is,to bad chevy does not keep records if they did there would be no discussion of it being a fraud.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jim67camarobeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">to bad chevy does not keep records if they did there would be no discussion of it being a fraud. </div></div>
The records exist, but they have yet to be released to the public domain. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Really?.......How do you know this to be true?
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
You sound very sure of that fact. What kind of evidence do you have? I for one would love to believe that the records exist and will turn up. I have a very good friend that has worked at GM for over 30 years. He's got friends all over there including friends in the archives. Even his friends in the archives have been digging to see if something is around. Many of them are true car guys that would love to find a stash of paperwork. Nobody has found anything. I guess there's always a chance, but in this case it's almost too slim to measure.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
2 Attachment(s)
From the Rt. 66 Classic event on Saturday.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mssl72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound very sure of that fact. What kind of evidence do you have? I for one would love to believe that the records exist and will turn up. I have a very good friend that has worked at GM for over 30 years. He's got friends all over there including friends in the archives. Even his friends in the archives have been digging to see if something is around. Many of them are true car guys that would love to find a stash of paperwork. Nobody has found anything. I guess there's always a chance, but in this case it's almost too slim to measure. </div></div>
I've got my sources, so I can only go by their veracity. And by archives, you mean the Heritage Center? *If* it ever sees the light of day, it likely won't be a part of the Heritage Center. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mssl72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound very sure of that fact. What kind of evidence do you have? I for one would love to believe that the records exist and will turn up. I have a very good friend that has worked at GM for over 30 years. He's got friends all over there including friends in the archives. Even his friends in the archives have been digging to see if something is around. Many of them are true car guys that would love to find a stash of paperwork. Nobody has found anything. I guess there's always a chance, but in this case it's almost too slim to measure. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I've got my sources, so I can only go by their veracity. And by archives, you mean the Heritage Center? *If* it ever sees the light of day, it likely won't be a part of the Heritage Center. </span></div></div> I can't believe I just read that. Common decency prevents me from commenting further. Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif[/img] |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Not Heritage Center related at all. Real Archives, Engineering, Research and Development. These are guys that can pull blueprints for bolts that that were used to put brackets on mid 60's big blocks to see who the supplier was, plating type, head marking, etc. These are guys that were Project Managers for Corvettes, Cadillac XLR, new Camaro designers. Like I said, real car guys that want to find anything and everything. If one day stuff shows up, I would welcome it. But I'm definitely not holding my breath.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I agree Mark - never say never, but highly unlikely that documentation exists. I was fortunate to have transfered around GM quite a bit during the late 60s and throughout the 70s (assembly plant, foundry division, Warren R&D). IMO the best chance of finding docs would have been at the assembly plant level. I got to follow a few "executive requests" through the process at the St. Louis assembly plant, but I never recall having kept written documents on them. We did have written AVOs, but didn't file them post build. Government emission certifications were required for drive train combinations - a non-compliant build wasn't something that was advertised. Also, including non-standard components at the assembly line level was an invitation for problems that had the potential of stopping the line - so most of the major "specials" would be done in the repair area or in the garage. All official paperwork (including trim tags) would show a standard build.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't believe I just read that. Common decency prevents me from commenting further. Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif[/img] </div></div> Well, Verne, you're welcome to remove any decency with me if you wish. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] The point is that there's always hope. I know a story of things moving forward from a person in-the-know, yet the Heritage Center knew nothing about this. This is from two years ago, and I haven't heard an update since then. I certainly didn't expect this to change the course of the thread. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img] |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Im just throwing this out there and not stirring the pot. But if all the record exist for pontiac and buick and olds then why is there no records for their biggest most profitable division? I am one of the minority that believes these records exist and someone at the top does not want them released due to the firestorm that would come from it. Just a thought.
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Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Guys, when Jim Mattison spoke at the MCACN last year, he revealed that he found the records, but he was a day late and a dollar short. According to Jim, he tracked down the information that there was a warehouse in PA with all of the Chevrolet records on microfiche. The bad news was that some GM bean counter had decided that they were more than 7 years old, and therefore obsolete. The contents of the warehouse were destroyed as a cost cutting measure.
END OF STORY. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/mad.gif[/img] btw, Jim owns the PHS, and worked in the Chevrolet central office back in the day. I believe him. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But if all the record exist for pontiac and buick and olds then why is there no records for their biggest most profitable division? .......someone at the top does not want them released due to the firestorm that would come from it. </div></div>
I agree except for I do not understand why the other divisions have released the records and gotten no firestorm. I am not sure why GM would suffer for individuals who cloned cars. Where would they be legally in trouble with that? What am I missing? |
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