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If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Thought this might be an interesting discussion, hope it hasn't already been covered.
Predicated on the early musclecar motif, what would your "dream" musclecar engine be, and how would you build it? SBC? BBC? Hemi? Ford Cammer? RA IV/V Pontiac? Buick? Oldsmobile? Budget build or "money is no object"? |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Crossram 302! Or just a 302? And it would have to be in a nostalgia 69 Camaro. You really can't do a budget build on something like that.
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
How would you build it?...mild or wild?
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I'd want to be able to dump the clutch and be looking at the sky. He he.
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nova Jed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd want to be able to dump the clutch and be looking at the sky. He he. </div></div>
I had a clutch explode like that once, too. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] Bought a scattershield and fixed the hole in the roof. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I would just be happy to have charley give me the keys to "jackass". My kind of engine and car. Roger
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I'd like to build several different 427 CID variation with the same carburetor, camshaft duration @.050, header diameter, etc. and compare them on a Dyno. That's a very attainable displacement for many engine groups and you'd have your standard BBC 427, a conventional 427 SBC, an LS-style 427, and even a 409-W-style 427 CID. I'd have to say that the LS engine would probably win but it would be interesting to compare.
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
On another note, I'd like to see a comparism of the 1970-71 "phantom" Supercars that were never built just to see how things would have played out if the Musclecar era hadn't started slowing down after 1970. I'd want a 454-465 LS-7 Chevelle, a 455 CID Stage II Buick Grand Sport, and a Ram Air V GTO. These three cars put together as close to factory spec as possible as matched together on a Dyno and maybe even a Dragstrip would have been a ton of fun!
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
always been a fan of the Mclaren 430 can am BB's with kinsler injection and calliope stacks. wicked 700+ HP. and look neat as hell. im not a road racer but i am a fan. id still stick it in a gasser recreation.
this. http://www.bangshift.com/assets/imag...Oct/canam1.jpg |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
You have already restored the original 4346 Holley for our COPO Chevelle. I'll just be happy to put the 427 back together in a durable, balanced, and blueprinted fashion. It was quick enough for me. That and reliability are what I look for. Rob Clary has shown how quick these engines can be in stock form, yet they can be docile enough to take Grandma to church. It went close to 200K miles first time around and will certainly outlast me the next time.
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Tedford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have already restored the original 4346 Holley for our COPO Chevelle. I'll just be happy to put the 427 back together in a durable, balanced, and blueprinted fashion. It was quick enough for me. That and reliability are what I look for. <span style="font-weight: bold">Rob Clary has shown how quick these engines can be in stock form</span>, yet they can be docile enough to take Grandma to church. It went close to 200K miles first time around and will certainly outlast me the next time. </div></div>
Ha! Judging from my performance this last year or so, I've no doubt set that standard back 3 decades! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/sick.gif[/img] I hope like heck that I've *finally* found the problem... |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Rob,
You still eatin' cams? |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORIGLS6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob,
You still eatin' cams? </div></div> I don't think, hopefully all of that's behind me...looks like maybe I ate a converter this time! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif[/img] Now I just need to find someone heading south from Michigan in the next couple of weeks to get my trans anywhere *south* of Detroit to save me some drive time...! |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Email sent
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thought this might be an interesting discussion...</div></div>
Then again, maybe not. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I am doing one now (455 olds) but its gonna take a while....
I sent the heads (over a year ago)to Joe Mondello (so he could port them. (he ported them.) then he unfortunatly passed away...) harland sharp roller rockers hydralic roller cam crower rods custom forged pistons. bottom end girdle deep pan ect ect.h.v pump oil restrictors.. the neat thing is on the outside the engine is all old school edelbrock o4b with edelbrock finned valve covers and holley 750 with old hedman hedders one tube (last one goes over the frame) now I need another car.... |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Sounds like a fun build. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
My first car was a `65 Olds Cutlass. Sure wish I would've kept that one. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Small block Ford. 331 stroker. TFS High Port heads. Super Victor. Pro Systems Holley somewhere in the 980cfm range. Custom solid roller. Dump the clutch at 8,500 rpm and let 'er eat.
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I would have to say that revving it up and dropping the clutch is my favorite way to drive my car. I subscribe to the philosophy of "You should leave at the same RPM that you shift at" and anything else is a compromise.
So my dream engine would be pretty much the same formula that I already have, just faster. I have a stock L79 with an old X-Ram, Early Vertigate shifter and 4.88. Built when I earned $80 a week bought the car with the engine in the trunk. Two pistons were replaced during the re-build, and never even changed the oil pump. Have to thank my Pop for coming in under budget with the care in assembly that has kept this thing alive since 1992. Lots of 7k revs and missed shifts. http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...x/MalibuSS.jpg http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...x/malibu33.jpg http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...x/malibu22.jpg So today with a dream budget, I would want an early BBC - probably 427-, but still set-up to leave at 6k, rev on the streets and live with 88's. Early set of aluminum heads Dual-quads is a must, but would be indifferent on Tunnel Ram or Cross Ram. I am confident that I am already pushing the limits of a stock Muncie box, so really I would want to make sure the trans stays together and the chassis twisting was kept to a minimum. Yeah, so breaking out of the 12's in this kind of style would make me happy. I like the way this leaves and the three point bar looks right at home! I guess my dream build isn't a specific engine configuration, but more a philosophy on how I would want to race my car and expect things to live. Now that I say it, I don't think I answered the question very well. http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...ger-2small.jpg http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...orenzvi-vi.jpg |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I built mine a couple of years ago. Simply the most fun I have had! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif[/img]
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...508#Post416508 |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Love the chevelle!!!
I gotta get another car for all of my day 2 stuff. cant go nuts on the w30 and I wanna boil the rear tires.... and the wife wants to learn how to drag race. she said to make it fast and Loud to annoy the neighbors the build is on its way.....slow but sure due to the economy..... |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I remember a family member back in the mid 80's with his 66 327 Vett with the side pipes and the pop it had out the exhaust. He tried to tell me that it was from fat pistons and still had to use 2 bottles of 104 octane booster to the Mobil 93 premium that it would drink.
I know I might get flammed for this but I was thinking for the someday 32 Furd Sedan highboy and always remembered the motor Spanky had in his 66. I thought it would be fun in my roadster, but I think the roadster deserves to be more mellow drivetrain. It would start out as an old style 327 with a big stroker crank kit in it, like get 388 ci, then I heard rumors that Ohio Crank makes a bigger stroke yet. Put some big JE or Ross Pistons in it for 13-1s, a nice solid roller in it with the 3/7 flop to it, a set of either MoTown heads with some work done to them, or a set of GM castings with a ton of work done to them with a Vett alum intake with the oil tube up front, run short water pump, deep groove pullys with a factory idler pully, polished factory finned 60's Vett Covers and then one of the new Holley Fuel Injection kits running on E85 with a 63-64 Corvette Dual Snorkle air cleaner hiding it all. Run 2.5 ramshorns with the stock looking alt bracket kit on them after they been all hogged out and honed. It would either be detailed up with all stock colors but to the max (Chevy orange cleared and wet sanded, semi gloss black pullys, brackets, etc) and made to look all GM stock other than the wiring and injectors. Mate it up to a Muncie style box with an aftermarket case and an overdrive 4th with a 3.00 something 1st gear while it would be spinning a Winters quickchange with 4 something gears. I don't know about what mufflers yet...no Flowmasters, maybe some aftermarket Corvette sidepipe chambers reworked to run under the car so I have the same sound as Spankys 66 had. And since I'm still dreaming, run an ignition box with a 7800 chip in it, so I can shift at 7500 before the guns go off. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I would put together a worked over 1970 LT1 350 engine. Then dyno it with every possible vintage aftermarket aluminum intake to see what one was KING of the Hill!
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Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Small block Ford. 331 stroker. TFS High Port heads. Super Victor. Pro Systems Holley somewhere in the 980cfm range. Custom solid roller. Dump the clutch at 8,500 rpm and let 'er eat. </div></div>
If you like small cubic inch high rpm builds, stay tuned, I've got something going together that you may find interesting [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pxtx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would have to say that revving it up and dropping the clutch is my favorite way to drive my car. I subscribe to the philosophy of "You should leave at the same RPM that you shift at" and anything else is a compromise. So my dream engine would be pretty much the same formula that I already have, just faster. I have a stock L79 with an old X-Ram, Early Vertigate shifter and 4.88. Built when I earned $80 a week bought the car with the engine in the trunk. Two pistons were replaced during the re-build, and never even changed the oil pump. Have to thank my Pop for coming in under budget with the care in assembly that has kept this thing alive since 1992. Lots of 7k revs and missed shifts. http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/w...x/MalibuSS.jpg... So today with a dream budget, I would want an early BBC - probably 427-, but still set-up to leave at 6k, rev on the streets and live with 88's. Early set of aluminum heads Dual-quads is a must, but would be indifferent on Tunnel Ram or Cross Ram. I am confident that I am already pushing the limits of a stock Muncie box, so really I would want to make sure the trans stays together and the chassis twisting was kept to a minimum. Yeah, so breaking out of the 12's in this kind of style would make me happy. I like the way this leaves and the three point bar looks right at home! I guess my dream build isn't a specific engine configuration, but more a philosophy on how I would want to race my car and expect things to live. Now that I say it, I don't think I answered the question very well. </div></div> <span style="font-weight: bold">Nice</span> Chevelle, and you answered the question just fine. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: napa68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I built mine a couple of years ago. Simply the most fun I have had! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif[/img] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...508#Post416508 </div></div> That thing is off the hook! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Can-I-Have-It.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] Smokey; No flaming here, and that's a neat mix of old & new tech. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would put together a worked over 1970 LT1 350 engine. Then dyno it with every possible vintage aftermarket aluminum intake to see what one was KING of the Hill! </div></div> Believe it or not, that actually may not be such a far-fetched idea! |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Believe it or not, that actually may not be such a far-fetched idea! </div></div> I wanted to keep it semi-realistic. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Let's try another angle;
Two choices for "raw material", a BB Chevy and SB Chevy. What would be more interesting; <span style="font-weight: bold">`70 style LT1</span> --Built with period Day 2 parts? (Ported heads, bigger cam, vintage intake--maybe even a tunnel ram?) --Built with stock parts but with some "bag of tricks" tweaks added? (think along the lines of "Pure Stock") --Built with stock parts but with every trick in the book thrown at it? (Think along the lines of "F.A.S.T.") <span style="font-weight: bold">`69 L72 or `70 LS6</span> Same criteria as above. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
My vote is for the big block. It just seems like it is hard to get any real credit/respect for making a sbc fast. Even when a guy has a small block running faster than a big block, the popular opinion seems to be that he has a lesser motor. Not that I build things for other people, but I've been on the camp of having the faster sbc car and not getting the recognition for the win. It can take a little of the fun out of it.
Situation seems worse these days with the sbc getting little respect since everyone is on the LS wagon. Realistically for me, I like a car that gets driven hard on the street and can run respectable times on the track. The BB does it with a little more style and probably a little less effort (meaning it will be happier on the street). Remind me, stick or auto? |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Trans can be whatever you want it to be.
The only imperative criteria is that it be predominantly based on "old school" parts, i.e. no modern aftermarket heads or blocks. How would you build the big block? |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I would prefer a BBC for my 65. My theme would be 1965-1967 speed parts. I would love to find an 396 with the siamesed cylinders, casting 3855962 I think. Would want a set of 3904392 L88 heads simply for weight but since we are dreaming, they would be date correct for my theme.
I would love to run without a hood, so an early TR2 tunnel ram would be cool. I know it would probbly fail the "which one tested to make the most HP" but I do like making good HP with parts that people tend to write off. I also happend to like the look of that intake and dig the fact that Grumpy Jenkins had done okay with it too. A 4 speed makes my little 327 lots of fun, but I think I would enjoy a simple TH400 behind this beast. After-all building an engine that would keep breaking 4-speeds isn't very fun to drive when you're broke down. I also think it would be cool to listen to the hum of some old duplex fuel pumps, but admittedly and scare to kill the ones I have with the modern fuel. Does anyone run the Dupree/Autopulse pumps? I don't really even know if the fuel would kill them. Seems there are plenty of old SW 240a pumps running modern fuel. http://www.saacforum.com/galleryc/al...8/DSCN5103.JPG Gearing for me is 4.56 at a minimum, but there is something about 4.88's the seems to be right. I also like hearing form these guys who think you can't live with 88's on the street without OD. With a well tuned distributor and vac advance, I get 12 mpg with my 327 running dual quads (600cfm Holley's) a 4 speed and 4.88. Don't kow what to expect with a BBC for fuel economy, but crusing with the R's around 5 ain't for the faint of heart. The Jersey shore is only about 50-60 miles on the Expressway and I've traveled that plenty with my 88's. There are a few "newer" items I find it hard to live without. I've always run a Holley Blue pump, which you just have to knw how to maintain it to get it to live. I also love my MSD to help wiht the dual quads. It's an old 7a fomr the 1970's but I trust it over just about all other systems. For a manual trans, the early Vertigate shifter is tops- anything else is...what do the young guys call it...weaksauce? Some interesting thoughts here Eric. I would love to hear more on what prompted you to ask the question. Seems like you might have a SBC option bouncing around. I would love to hear more on that. One thing that I really like about a old smal block is the look before it went modern. No accessory holes in th heads. Nothing but an alternator. Clean and simple from a time when all sbc had forged cranks. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
1971 402 (low compression)8.5 to 1
Crane Fireball Cam Torker 2-0 3310-2 Holley 780cfm Headers Just like my old Nova [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Mopar 413 with 11.1 compression,solid lifter cam,cross rams and headers.Backed by a 4 speed and sitting in a 64 Plymouth. Like this:
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/60Prams2.jpg Paul |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
LOVE those old Mopars! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gif[/img]
My favorite early Mopar; http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...06/pr/1268.jpg And it would have to have one of these between the fenders: http://www.65dodge.ch/images/ss2.jpg And one of these behind it: http://www.brewersperformance.com/im...SpeedTrans.jpg And one of these out back: http://www.magnumforce.com/images/pr...60_rearend.jpg |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
I really liked the 302 we built for Williams (10/10 RSZ) 69 Z...
302 12.5:1, 636 lift solid roller (spec'd by Dave Crower), zero gap rings, Eagle rods, 186's with 2.05 intakes, a little bowl work & gasket matched. If originality was not an issue for an all out I would have run aluminum heads, with a crossram, and better ignition, 6.25 rods with custom pistons, & a Callies crank with splayed main caps. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Can I build 2? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img]
Since I normally dare to be different, I'd like to try a couple different "stock appearing" builds...both starting with old 502 short decks, stock 163 intake w/ worked Camaro/Chevelle exhaust manifolds, but one a big bore (4.56") short stroke (3.76") combo just shy of 500 cubes, and the other with the same bore (4.56") but throw some arm at it (4.375") for an old school 572...and then see which got down the track the best on the Polyglass! I've always wondered if the lesser torqued/higher revving Pro Stock style engine wouldn't be easier to launch, but run into breathing issues with the stock parts due to the increased revs...and everyone says to always build the biggest engine you can afford, but I'm thinking the torque could make the combo a nightmare off the line? Guess that's why we race 'em on the track and not paper... |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chevy454</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Since I normally dare to be different, ( [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] ) I've always wondered if the lesser torqued/higher revving Pro Stock style engine wouldn't be easier to launch, but run into breathing issues with the stock parts due to the increased revs...</div></div> I like how you think!!! (Both categories. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]) |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Since you're talking along the lines of "F.A.S.T." cars, how many cubes is Lane's Mustang? Isn't he somewhere around 557"?
FWIW, I've already done a 4.5"X4.5" short deck 572 back in `95. Made stupid power for no more than what it was. Can be done with off-the-shelf parts today if you (A) run an aftermarket block or (B) a short deck Bowtie/502 block. BTW, PM coming shortly. Eric |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you're talking along the lines of "F.A.S.T." cars, how many cubes is Lane's Mustang? Isn't he somewhere around 557"?
FWIW, I've already done a 4.5"X4.5" short deck 572 back in `95. Made stupid power for no more than what it was. Can be done with off-the-shelf parts today if you (A) run an aftermarket block or (B) a short deck Bowtie/502 block. BTW, PM coming shortly. Eric </div></div> I've heard anywhere from 557 to 598...and neither is a stretch for those factory Ford blocks...he simply says "500+"...whatever it is, it's making some steam to go 9.84 @ 139.82! The FAST engine block rule seems a bit cloudy to me some days, as to whether the old 502 block is legal... <span style="font-style: italic">2.01 Engine block must appear to be a correct* original block and it must be an original vintage OEM or vintage OEM replacement of the same engine family and exterior size and must be made from the same material as the correct* original block. Also, a new OEM replacement block is allowed only if it duplicates a legal vintage block in design, material, appearance, bore size and performance. No aftermarket blocks are allowed. Replacement OEM blocks that have raised decks, raised cam or bigger bores are not allowed. Block casting number does not have to be correct*. No aftermarket blocks allowed. For example: a. A correct* 400 cid block could be replaced with a vintage, OEM 455 block, if it appears externally correct*, and is made from the correct* material. b. A correct* Mopar 340 could use a 318, 340 or a 360 block, if it appears externally correct*, and is made from the correct* material. c. A correct* 327 Chevy can use a 350 or 400 block, if it appears externally correct*, and is made from the correct* material. d. Mopar Hemi standard replacement block is allowed, but a Siamese bore Mega block is not. Only early Hemi restoration blocks are allowed. For clarification, Email Dave Dudek @ [email protected]. e. GM ZL1 replacement block # 3946053 is allowed.</span> I'm just not sure how big & reliable I could go with my '70 512 block...engine guy says 540-ish? |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Rob;
The way I read those rules, an A460, Bowtie/502 or new Siamese Mopar Race Hemi block is illegal due to the larger bore capability over "production" passenger car/truck blocks. Given the newer technological advancements in sleeving blocks, one tends to wonder if those rules do anything more than jack up the cost of achieving a 4.500+ bore more than necessary(?). [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] As far as how big you can go with an OEM BBC block, check your PM's. |
Re: If you could build an engine any way you wanted to
Back in 59-60 I remember a magazine article where they bored a small block till the deck was open (no cylinder walls left) from one end to the other.... they then ground flats in the side of sleeves, pressed them in and furnace brazed the whole affair. In effect, they made a siamesed block long before they were factory available. Just depends on how much you are willing to spend and how competent your machinist is that limits what can be done.
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