1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Apologies if this is a rehash, but is this white ZL-1 going to pull the big bucks now that it has the original engine, even though the engine had a "catastrophic failure"? Does anyone know the extent of the engine damage, and what type of repair was made? I thought this car was discussed a couple years ago on this site, but couldn't find the thread.

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...D=CA0810-96534

Just curious... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

The way things read suggests the block consists of original and reproduced sections joined together..

<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;...the block and reproduced section machined to the closest possible tolerances and the two made whole by advanced TIG welding...&quot;</span>

Obviously the original section includes the stamped deck surface but the bigger the better also hopefuly it's larger than the other piece!.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

&quot; With the real original block now back in the Camaro after almost forty years&quot;

&quot;...and now, of course, the real original ZL1 engine.&quot;

before it only had the ORIGINAL engine, now that ORIGINAL engine is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">REAL</span></span></span>

so, the story tellers before were lying?

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

all that &quot;CAD&quot; work done to the engine and a &quot;Caution Fan&quot; decal?
really?

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Look Closely the Engine bay shot is from an orange or red car not that car !!!!!!

Jim

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JIM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look Closely the Engine bay shot is from an orange or red car not that car !!!!!!

Jim </div></div>

Good catch.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
You can make out the right fender to fire wall attach point, to bad for the buyer, now he has to come up with his own &quot;Caution fan sticker&quot;... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Not knocking the car or the confusion of wrong under hood photo, but please, let's proof read the ads...


&quot;The real original block, which had suffered catastrophic failure during a water burnout <span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">on its maiden test </span>run</span>..&quot;

HIGHLIGHTS

<span style="font-weight: bold">- Original raced engine in the car &quot;</span>




it can't be both [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

If My memory serves me right this was the car that Reggie Jackson tried to sell at Barrett-Jackson the last year that they had a reserve with the Original Block in the trunk!!! He was Booo'd off the stage when he wouldn't drop the reserve and sell it for 600K, that was 2004 . They didnt show that on Speed !!!!!

Jim

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

You are correct Chris!! Good pick up.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Buyer beware. Very aware! Read the new story very closely.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: al8apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot; With the real original block now back in the Camaro after almost forty years&quot;

&quot;...and now, of course, the real original ZL1 engine.&quot;

before it only had the ORIGINAL engine, now that ORIGINAL engine is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">REAL</span></span></span>

so, the story tellers before were lying? </div></div>

They believed they had the orig block when it was selling at Barrett-Jackson. A SYC member had a block that was acquired from Lamar and were told it was from # 51. I put Reggie and the member together, the block was bought and repaired. At Barrett-Jackson a attorney called and said he had a client that had the orig block and that he had bought it from Lamar in the 1970's. Reggie then stopped the sale of the car to sort it out. He called Lamar and Lamar said he had several blocks for the car that GM had given him. He also said he still had the orig. one in his shop. Reggie then bought and repaired that one. He as spent a ton of dough trying to do the right thing. If there is any fault it is with Lamar..

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: al8apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot; With the real original block now back in the Camaro after almost forty years&quot;

&quot;...and now, of course, the real original ZL1 engine.&quot;

before it only had the ORIGINAL engine, now that ORIGINAL engine is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">REAL</span></span></span>

so, the story tellers before were lying? </div></div>

They believed they had the orig block when it was selling at Barrett-Jackson.<span style="color: #FF6666"> A SYC member had a block that was acquired from Lamar and were told it was from # 51. </span>I put Reggie and the member together, the block was bought and repaired. At Barrett-Jackson <span style="color: #FF6666">a attorney called and said he had a client that had the orig block and that he had bought it from Lamar in the 1970's.</span> Reggie then stopped the sale of the car to sort it out. <span style="color: #FF0000">He called Lamar and Lamar said he had several blocks for the car that GM had given him. He also said he still had the orig. one in his shop.</span> Reggie then bought and repaired that one. He as spent a ton of dough trying to do the right thing. If there is any fault it is with Lamar.. </div></div>

Wow...so who's on first? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow...so who's on first? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] </div></div>

Albert Pujols!!!!

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Ryan Howard!!

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Charley, let me recap your information....

- Reggie had #51 since the mid 1990's. He buys what he thinks is the original block from an SYC member, who says it was bought from Lamar. Then he puts the car up on the B-J block in 2004.

- An attorney calls and says Reggie's car does not have the original block. The true original block is still in Lamar's shop, but it is seriously damaged.

- Reggie pulls the car from the B-J auction as bidding stalls at $600K.

- Reggie buys the original damaged block from Lamar, spends a ton of money repairing it, and that's what we see today going to 2010 Mecum.

- Reggie holds the all-time strike out record at 2,597 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

&quot;Reggie pulls the car from the B-J auction as bidding stalls at $600K&quot;

I think the car was pushed off stage,Reggie didn't touch it!


Does Lamar have two sons, Ron and Robbie, or is ther just one block or are thre two Reggie Jacksons's?

Stay tuned for the tent to collapse at Mecum.

Paul

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Too Be Continued Same Bat time same Bat Channel [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

This story might be better than the green 270k cowl tag sale that Reggie was involved with at BJ a few years ago.

It seems simple to me. Which block has the original VIN???

so this car now has undisputable provenance as an 'original motor' ZL-1 ???

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

------This is just me sayin, but, Im thinkin there arent #s on either block. Just Lamars say so. Lot of money spent just on someones recollections. Hope that doesnt sound like Im impuning his rep, but I know how bad my memory is about stuff from back then, and Im willing to bet that I have a bunch less to remember than Lamar.......Bill S

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

When Reggie originally bought the car from Walden for a reported $250k (a lot of money at that time) wouldn't Reggie have been informed that Walden still had the ORIGINAL block? The ruined (?) supposed ORIGINAL block would have been worth far more to Reggie than Walden. Does it make sense that a savvy buyer like Reggie would not have gotten the old ORIGINAL block for $250k???

Is it even conceivable that the GM rep. would have knocked the serial number off the block rather than return it to GM who would have far more interest in the failed block than the ser. no.???
Follow the $$$$$.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GRB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is it even conceivable that the GM rep. would have knocked the serial number off the block rather than return it to GM who would have far more interest in the failed block than the ser. no.???
Follow the $$$$$. </div></div>

I never understood that story. Writing the number down on a piece of paper sounds like a lot less work than attacking the block with a sledgehammer.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

The G.M. rep. job was to slegehammer the block,so NOT to see the block come back under G.M. warranty ever again! That is how it worked at the dealer I worked at.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

It was only an injured engine block to all parties involved back then and was it was cheaper to replace than to fix. Nobody ever dreamed it would be a crucial component of an automobile worth several hundreds of thousands dollars later 30 years in the future. As far as Reggie/Lamar, there's a lot more to that story than what might seem obvious to the casual observer. Lamar has not deceived anybody.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

&quot;Nobody ever dreamed it would be a crucial component of an automobile worth several hundreds of thousand dollars later 30 years in the future&quot;. That about sums it up.

Remember what you've always been taught; believe half of what you see and nothing you hear.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

I lived in Newfoundlandd up until 1975. In 1969 there was a auto-train derailment involving about 75 new GM cars. These were mostly 69 full size Pontiacs and Chevrolets,Biscaynes Impallas.
About 20 cars had major damage such as crushed roofs,the remainder were minor damage, yet all 75 cars were sent to a local wrecking yard and ordered destroyed by GM. Everybody panel was to be piered by a pickaxe,glass was smashed and upholstery was ripped with an ax,all transmissions were sledgehammered as were the blocks,bumpers were cut in two with a torch as were frame sections. The yard paid nothing for the cars as GM were satisfied there was nothing left to sell. I am sure GM insurance or CN insurance paid for the cars. I viewed the yard about a month after the cars were&quot;destroyed&quot; and saw a suprising number only had one or two axe marks on them. Rumor has it that the yard owner,after the insurance guys axed about a dozen cars,took the crew out for a few beers,got them real drunk and told they his guys would take care of the rest. A token axe hit on a few selected cars and the job got signed off as done.
A friend of mine bought one of the 350 blocks out of one of the full size Chevs and had it repaired. The damage was not bigger than a small quarter size piece near a water jacket. He ran that engine in a 67 Camaro for about 5 years.

Paul

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GRB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is it even conceivable that the GM rep. would have knocked the serial number off the block rather than return it to GM who would have far more interest in the failed block than the ser. no.???
Follow the $$$$$. </div></div>

I never understood that story. Writing the number down on a piece of paper sounds like a lot less work than attacking the block with a sledgehammer. </div></div>


I missed that part of the story. ?When the motor blew first time heating the tires GM sent someone out to hack the numbers off the grenaded block? Why does this sound peculiar? Was that common practice for warranty replacements? I better throw another shrimp on the barbie.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

No idea how it worked then but in a previous life I was a Service Mgr. for a GM dealer in the 80's and when the reps visited our dealership they'd have a list in hand of warranty parts from all transactions since their last visit..
The rep would go down the list and randomly choose items saying I want to see this part, that one and another one etc and I'd have to produce them within a few minutes complete w/ warranty tags hanging on them showing the pertinent claim #'s etc!.
We were organized and honest w/ our claims so never a problem producing whatever they chose so happy w/ the outcome they'd always say 'toss the stuff and everything else' and I would...seldom saving anything!.

Love to hear more of the story as you know it Mark...please PM me if it's not something you feel comfortable posting..

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

I'm far from an expert here, and I'm not saying anything against Lamar, because I don't know him. I'm just saying the story is wierd.

What I've read is that the dealer warranty manager knocked the corner off the block so he could take it back to his office and write the number down. That makes no sense to me, but I've read that exact story 4 or 5 times from different sources. Now that's probably second, third, or even fourth hand information, so if it isn't accurate, I'll be happy to shut up. If it is accurate, it either is fishy, or that was the dumbest warranty manager who ever lived.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Since GM gave him the car I don't see anything unusual if they gave him extra blocks. And I don't see a warranty rep making him destroy blocks..

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

The original short block from ZL-1 #34 was apparently replaced under warranty. The block was never damaged inside and even less was it 'intentionally damaged by a GM rep' or scrapped. It actually ended up in a roundy-round car. When I found it, it was painted completely orange with Moroso valve covers and it had the big offset oilpan, gear drive and all 454 guts.



the VIN on the #51 block would have been down by the oil filter...the original VIN was barely noticable on block #34....I doubt any GM rep. would have even looked for it or even known if it was there. And I seriously doubt any GM rep would have 'intentionally destroyed' any parts.(although I guess it is possible)

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

I thought the world watched Ron Pratt buy the ZL1 for 850K

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

I think Ron bought it for 800K but when the attorney called and said his client had the orig block Reggie put the sale on hold until it could be sorted out.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Not to change the subject, but the ad states that there are 4 or 5 ZL-1's with the original motors...that must be an incorrect number. I know of atleast 5 that have the original motors. I am sure there are more.

#1 (per Charlie L)
#17 Ive seen motor myself
#34 I previously owned
#25 per conversation with owner
#40 I beleive a member here owned the original motor..(dont know if it is with the car now?)does HBC still own the car?
I assume that the original low mile blue RS has orig. motor.Don't know what number car that is off hand.
Also the car owned by a member here 'Eddie'..does that still have the orig. motor? Don't know that number either.

That is atleast 7 cars right there..and with Reggie's car that would make 8...I assume there must be others out there.. ????

is there a list?? i dont think Ed C keeps track anymore.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Colin C. sold (Mecum Auction) a D Blue one a couple years back that, as I recall, was stated to have the original engine.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Yes, I sold #18 in Oct 2005. It wasn't a statement, it had its original engine. Charley had owned #18 as well.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

Orange #16. Not in the car, ......... but sitting close to it. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

I owned #'s 18 and 30, both had orig engines. The blue RS now has it's orig engine. The engines for #'s 3 and 26 are out there but not with their cars. # 1 now has it as I understand it. Also a orig paint Lemans blue ZL1 has it's orig engine but I don't know the #. The block for # 57 is also out there but not in the car yet.

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

So to recap::

cars with original engines:
1, 17, 18, 25, 30, 34, #51?,
blue lo-mile RS(#?),
orig. paint LB car(per Charlie)(#?)(is that Eddie's car?)

cars with original engine known to exist:

#3, #16, #26, #40, #57

that makes possibly 9? cars with orig. motor and 5 more with motor possibly available to be mated with cars someday.

Does anyone else know any info. on orig. motor cars?

Charlie, So the blue RS at one point did not have it's original motor?? what number ZL-1 is the blue RS??
max

Re: 1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORIGLS6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Orange #16. Not in the car, ......... but sitting close to it. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
</div></div>

And possibly the most desirable one out there.... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gif[/img]

Mike