proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

ok, someone help me out with what exactly is a proper-rebody? rebody is like the last term I would want to use, even if proper.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

"proper rebody" isn't in my vocabulary...

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

Kind of like a "legal crime"

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

which "Hemmings"?

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

its in the latest feb hemmings motor news, 69 camaro, blue, $250K obo. I did not keep track of all the details of this car when it was discussed on this website as a forsale car, but the new term 'proper rebody' just caused me to ask what are the real details behind the term when its used in a serious publication like hemmings (plenty will be reading that). To me its properly restored or its something else. Properly rebodied is either properly restored or its not properly restored. just got to know what I am missing in this hobby with this new term I am not sure of.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok, someone help me out with what exactly is a proper-rebody? rebody is like the last term I would want to use, even if proper.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the folks at BJ can help with this issue https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

It is just like having a properly restamped block.It seems that more fuss is being made these days over Z/28's with restamped blocks then over quarter million dollar copo's with that are rebodied.It is just another way of politly saying that somebody wrappd their 427 Camaro around a pole or cut it up into a tube chassis race car 30 yars ago and kept the VIN and trim tag in their sock draw for posterity and are now figuring out that these cars are worth so much that using the tags on a plain jane body is worth doing.The price difference between a plain jane and a COPO car is now so great that it pays to hold out on the internet until you find a perfect plain jane Camaro in exactly the color combo as your old COPO,pay way more then any sane person would pay for such a car,then start adding your COPO do-dads to it and rake in the big dough.Find a perfect survivor plain jane and you can really make the big bucks when you make it into a low mile suvivor COPO.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kind of like a "legal crime"

[/ QUOTE ]

Like taxes? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

The dividing line of what is and what is not a rebody has never been clear to me.

Supposing you have a shell with a good firewall with intact tags and hidden vin, but quarters/roof/rockers, etc. are replaced. You also replace the doors/fenders/subframe/hood, filler and rear valance panels and then (topping it all off, but not really germain) install a "matching numbers" drivetrain and everything else.

Rebody?

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

In my opinion, once you've replaced every square inch of the car besides the firewall, that's a rebody. If you had to replace that much of it, that car was dead.

Legally, however, it's a different story. As long as the VIN's aren't disturbed, it's acceptable, I think.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

I'll give you a for example. I used a shell with intact frame rails, roof, and quarters that required patch panels. Floors have also been patched. Former drag car so the rockers also required rework and the frame machine (I almost replaced them). I used my own tailpan/filler/trunklid/doors/hood/fenders/subframe/radiator support, etc., and dropped in my own drivetrain.

Rebody?

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give you a for example. I used a shell with intact frame rails, roof, and quarters that required patch panels. Floors have also been patched. Former drag car so the rockers also required rework and the frame machine (I almost replaced them). I used my own tailpan/filler/trunklid/doors/hood/fenders/subframe/radiator support, etc., and dropped in my own drivetrain.

Rebody?

[/ QUOTE ]

Others may have a different opinion but mine is even though this needed extensive repairs it's not a rebody being no Tags or Vin locations were transfered or ever separated from each other also the intent wasn't to transfer a firewall w/ Tags/Vin locations to another body..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
~ Pete

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

My opinion also. Plus there was no intent to accomplish anything other than bring the car back to life.

Now, let's bring it back to my original dividing line fuzziness. Supposing this was less than the shell, a good firewall plus rear framerails, but minus floors/roof/quarters/rockers/doors and entire front end.

Rebody?

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

If you move the trim tag, the Vin# to another body. It's a rebody.
If you don't move anything to another body, it's not a rebody. I think that's simple. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you move the trim tag, the Vin# to another body. It's a rebody.
If you don't move anything to another body, it's not a rebody. I think that's simple. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully agree - if the trim tags are not removed and attached to another shell it is not a rebody. The trim and vin tags can be removed but reattached to the same shell. The shell can undergo any form or major reconstruction as long as the original shell is being used and the tags are not moved to another shell.

Here are some pics of my car - even though we replaced every single major body panel it is still not considered a rebody as the original shell was used and the tags were not transferred.

http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/Ca...maro-03-06.jpg

http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/Ca...maro-03-08.jpg

http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/Ca...maro-03-11.jpg

Here is the end result of a non-rebodied car:

http://www.payko.com/copo_0108.jpg

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

That car looks awesome.

So the conclusion I am getting is that, when I take a COPO firewall with rear framerails attached and apply the rest of the vehicle around it, it will be accepted as a "restored" COPO?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
Just asking...

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
That car looks awesome.

So the conclusion I am getting is that, when I take a COPO firewall with rear framerails attached and apply the rest of the vehicle around it, it will be accepted as a "restored" COPO?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
Just asking...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this would sound accurate. As long as you are not transferring those tags to a new body / shell your car would be considered a restoration not a rebody.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

So what is left of the ORIGINAL car other than a piece of firewall and some tags? Technically, it isn't the same 1969 Camaro anymore.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

The Orange COPO above is a good example of a non-Re bodied car. In my opinion (for what its worth)as long as the cowl,tunnel,pillars and rear frame are intact even if necessary repairs are made to the previous list,it is an original car.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That car looks awesome.

So the conclusion I am getting is that, when I take a COPO firewall with rear framerails attached and apply the rest of the vehicle around it, it will be accepted as a "restored" COPO?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
Just asking...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this would sound accurate. As long as you are not transferring those tags to a new body / shell your car would be considered a restoration not a rebody.

[/ QUOTE ]

as long as your TT and VIN are attached to the firewall and frame rails you are transferring to the donor body it is not a rebody. WTF am I missing here?

(sound of canned worms getting opened) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

This is obviously a Grey area. The more a car is worth the farther one will go to save it. For me the majority of the car would have had to be intact prior its resto. and rivets never removed before I would consider its purchase.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

I understand the argument about retaining the original cowl with tag and VIN...but, when all of the other parts are replaced it just isn't the same car anymore. If it weren't for the big bucks involved this probably wouldn't be an issue...

My father used to have an expression that kind of covers this...he would say.." why don't you just take off the radiator cap and drive a new one underneath it"

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

Maybe we are misunderstanding him so lets ask this again:

What exactly do you have that is from a production COPO car and what is your intention with those parts? What do you need to do with these parts to be assembled back into a complete shell for restoration?

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

I know where there is a RS COPO car right now.It has been a race car since 1971.It has the original VIN in the dash,the firewall ends under the windsheld.The floors and frame rails are gone from the toe boards to the tail panel.The firewall with all the hidden VIN's are gone.,The front subframe was cut short at the firewall,and a tube frame built from there back,has the area under the engine cut out and rack and pinion steering installed.The car has the original rockers,roof with inner structure,rear quarters and tail panel.All the bolt on sheet metal is fiberglass now.Original engine/trans/rear.suspention ect are all long gone.If this car were to turned up restored using the metal that remains including fixing the original front subframe what would you classify it as.It would need one of those full floorpan/firewall assemblies,inner and outer wheehouse,the 1/4's would have to be unradiused,and a donor subframe would have to be used to fix the original.

I also have reason the belieive that I know where Grumpy's 68 Camaro is,and it is modified to this extent and is on a tube frame and has no VIN or firewall at all.Would that car be saveable?

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know where there is a RS COPO car right now.It has been a race car since 1971.It has the original VIN in the dash,the firewall ends under the windsheld.The floors and frame rails are gone from the toe boards to the tail panel.The firewall with all the hidden VIN's are gone.,The front subframe was cut short at the firewall,and a tube frame built from there back,has the area under the engine cut out and rack and pinion steering installed.The car has the original rockers,roof with inner structure,rear quarters and tail panel.All the bolt on sheet metal is fiberglass now.Original engine/trans/rear.suspention ect are all long gone.If this car were to turned up restored using the metal that remains including fixing the original front subframe what would you classify it as.It would need one of those full floorpan/firewall assemblies,inner and outer wheehouse,the 1/4's would have to be unradiused,and a donor subframe would have to be used to fix the original.

I also have reason the belieive that I know where Grumpy's 68 Camaro is,and it is modified to this extent and is on a tube frame and has no VIN or firewall at all.Would that car be saveable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich-

In my opinion if what you say is still there could be saved and built around to assemble a completed shell I would call that a restore - not a rebody. In my eyes a rebody is when a completely seperate body has the trim & vin tags transferred to it - and that body having been another car at some time and now being represented as the original car that the tags came from. Lets not mention Dynacorn bodies - besides teh terrible quality any of those shells that finds a period VIN or trim tag is criminal and illegal.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

In regards to the original OP posting - lets go over what he is asking here.

He is asking what a "correct or proper rebody" is.

My answer to this is that there is no such thing - a rebody is a new and distinctly different car in itself. That body is and should remain as whatever it was assembled as - the application of trim tags and vin plates does not change what that body was originally built as.

Now when it comes to restoration there will be times when a new or different body will be used in the re-construction of the car to be completed. This would be considered a rebody. To make this rebody as correct as it can be (although it will truely never be the car that the original was) the application of as much of the original drivetrain, interior, exterior body panels and any other parts from the donor car should be used. This will come to complete what is known as a rebodied car and despite the fact that all the original donor parts may be come from a highly collectible or desirable car the newly constructed car will not become what the donor car once was. At best it will become a clone built using OEM and correct parts.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

Boy, it is very obvious from this short thread that it is in the eye of the beholder. With words like "intent" and comments like "if the tags are removed and replaced on the same portion of the original body," "all the metal was replaced on the original car" etc. it is clear that it depends on what people can live with in their own minds.

This arguement has been raging throughout the old car hobby for many years now. What many don't know is that reboding has been going on since the 30s when the high end cars such as Duesenbergs were often "rebodied" with a completely different model body on an existing frame simply to satisfy the customers desire. It was done at the factory, the dealer, or any garage capable of doing it. It has been accepted in the antique hobby on these cars for years. Why then is it suddenly so important in the muscle car venue when someone modifies/takes parts from/restores/re-tags a basic factory model that comes down the assembly line and has different items added to it to build what the V.I.N. or trim tag shows it to be? Note that the word "restores" obviously means many different things to many different people.

Here is a copy and past from another web site from years ago that is speaking of unibody cars on the subject but it's basis certainly applies to all old muscle cars in the hobby.


Most feel the real problem is that there is no definition of where the line is with regards to the restoration of a unibody car.

At what point does the car cross the line from what has been described above as a restoration rather than a rebody?

How much of the original unibody has to be left for new, reproduction, or good used parts to be attached to?

How big of a CHUNK of a donor car can you use in this restoration before it is considered a rebody?

Does the simple act of removing the V.I.N. plate from one car or part of the car constitute a rebody?

What about removing the V.I.N. plate because the part of the car that it is attached to is damaged? Does this constitute a rebody?

Does a car that was front or rear "clipped" by a bodyshop 30+ years ago constitute a partial rebody?

If a car was first FRONT clipped and a year later REAR clipped, does this constitute a complete rebody?

All good questions with no answers that probably any two people will agree on.

This is why so many people have mixed feeling about the restoration/rebody arguement.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

I think that if a car has honest repairs, no matter how bad it was, it is restored. To me that means stripping it to bare metal and replacing the items that are needed, not taking the easy route and switching the cowl/tag, etc. If a car is so rusted, burned, or wrecked to the point that no good metal is left it is junk and should be considered gone. To use the tag or cowl from a car like that and try to claim it as restored or re-bodied is a joke.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that if a car has honest repairs , no matter how bad it was, it is restored. To me that means stripping it to bare metal and replacing the items that are needed, not taking the easy route and switching the cowl/tag, etc. If a car is so rusted, burned, or wrecked to the point that no good metal is left it is junk and should be considered gone. To use the tag or cowl from a car like that and try to claim it as restored or re-bodied is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHO decides what an "honest repair" is?
If I assume you mean a restoration other than by rebody (if anyone can define when it takes place) then I guess it is safe to assume that you would be satisfied with a burned, rusted, damaged car that was repaired by a novice welding parts from 15 different cars togather in their garage?
You would not rather have one that all of the correct parts were simply transfered to a complete, undamaged factory built donor car just as the factory did to build that same car that is what the V.I.N. trim tag indicates?

Statements like this are often used for the rebody arguement. However, using this same LOGIC 99% of these old muscle cars "restored" (either by what some refer to as the conventional way OR rebody) in the last 10 years or more would never have taken place. When you figure that MOST of these cars were rusted, damaged, incomplete, to the point that when parked they were basially "totaled" in reality. When the values of these cars began to rise in value people started pulling cars out of junkyards, backyards, garages, fields, and barns.

People complain that a resurrected car by means of rebody is wrong, but some of those same people will say that it is restored if they take one of these rust buckets and bolt or weld on parts from SEVERAL other old donor cars or new repo parts. So, once again look at my other post above, WHO in the hobby DEFINES when a "restoration" ends and a "rebody" begins. Apparently EVERYBODY does and forms their own opinions.

Some say that it is done simply for profit. WHO is the mind reader in this case? How do they know what is in the mind of the person that owns the car.

Many people in the hobby currently own cars that were at one time considered totaled, or in other words worth less when restored than the cost to do so. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

Here is a link to a car that is close to a rebody, yet still is not.

http://agar.homestead.com/myridesbarrelcuda.html

I would give it a rebody pass. The owner is very up front on pictures before it was painted (baremetal firewall/cowl), its donor material (not a complete roller), the tons of work done to salvage it. I would consider it a legal car.

now is this maybe also a proper rebody by some? or is that even more metal replacement than this car? note the owner of this cuda in the link is not calling his car a rebody.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]

WHO decides what an "honest repair" is?

[/ QUOTE ]

The owner of a car sets the standards for what he owns. The purchaser of a car sets the standard for what he wants to own.


[ QUOTE ]
If I assume you mean a restoration other than by rebody (if anyone can define when it takes place) then I guess it is safe to assume that you would be satisfied with a burned, rusted, damaged car that was repaired by a novice welding parts from 15 different cars togather in their garage?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said no such thing. What a stupid thing to say.


[ QUOTE ]
You would not rather have one that all of the correct parts were simply transfered to a complete, undamaged factory built donor car just as the factory did to build that same car that is what the V.I.N. trim tag indicates?

[/ QUOTE ]

What you are describing is a clone. It might be cool to own, but it would always be a clone to me.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

How about this, if there is more of another car in the body tub section than original car in the final product, its a rebody.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

WHO decides what an "honest repair" is?

[/ QUOTE ]

The owner of a car sets the standards for what he owns. The purchaser of a car sets the standard for what he wants to own.

That is YOUR opinion.


[ QUOTE ]
If I assume you mean a restoration other than by rebody (if anyone can define when it takes place) then I guess it is safe to assume that you would be satisfied with a burned, rusted, damaged car that was repaired by a novice welding parts from 15 different cars togather in their garage?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said no such thing. What a stupid thing to say.

That is the way I preceived it. Isn't the written word great.

[ QUOTE ]
You would not rather have one that all of the correct parts were simply transfered to a complete, undamaged factory built donor car just as the factory did to build that same car that is what the V.I.N. trim tag indicates?

[/ QUOTE ]

What you are describing is a clone. It might be cool to own, but it would always be a clone to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a clone at all when the numbers are transfered, which is what we have been discussing here.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a link to a car that is close to a rebody, yet still is not.

http://agar.homestead.com/myridesbarrelcuda.html

I would give it a rebody pass. The owner is very up front on pictures before it was painted (baremetal firewall/cowl), its donor material (not a complete roller), the tons of work done to salvage it. I would consider it a legal car.

now is this maybe also a proper rebody by some? or is that even more metal replacement than this car? note the owner of this cuda in the link is not calling his car a rebody.

[/ QUOTE ]

That rustbucket has been beat to death on Moparts.com for two years now. There were PLENTY of donor parts involved with the car, but according to the guy that did the work and from the pictures it was not a rebody, but rather a patchwork quilt of many donor parts.
I hope he had a REALLY level floor and all of the body dimension measurements and USED them when he welded everything back togather or it will fold up like an accordian upon impact.

This is a good example of how DISCLOSURE that everyone thinks should take place with a rebody but SELDOM happens with a "restoration" such as this, can KILL the saleability of a car. From all the comments on Moparts.com, even though the guy spent a lot of money and time on the car, it has been shunned. It WAS for sale for a long time with no luck.

If ALL of the "restored" cars out there showed the resto process (and many are just like this one) do you think they would bring the money they did upon sale if the buyer saw them? I think not.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

Speaking of beaten to death....there have been at least a dozen threads on this here over the years, with similar (if not identical) points and counterpoints. I don't think theres anything to say that hasn't already been said many times before.

Everyone has their own belief as to what a rebody is and their feelings on one. It never ends well, and no one ever seems to come to an agreement.

http://www.spooncraft.com/wp-content...ead_horse2.jpg

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

If the market knows exactly what has been replaced, then the will set the price for the car. Re-bodied cars will never be as valuable as those with all their original parts. However when we deal with rare cars, people seem to be willing to still pay a lot of money.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of beaten to death....there have been at least a dozen threads on this here over the years, with similar (if not identical) points and counterpoints. I don't think theres anything to say that hasn't already been said many times before.

Everyone has their own belief as to what a rebody is and their feelings on one. It never ends well, and no one ever seems to come to an agreement.

http://www.spooncraft.com/wp-content...ead_horse2.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the picture! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

We have gone down this road many times before.The issue is that it defies legal logic that an automobile can be recreated using all replacement or donor parts and the job would actually cost less then what the car is worth.Basically a car is totalled when it cost more to fix then it is worth,so the state issues a salvage title so that the VIN can't just be swapped to a stolen body since stealing another car would be the only way to fix a totaled car for less then the cost of simply buying another car.

In the collector car world,things get fuzzy.While a $250,000 car can techanically be totally destroyed,the car itself is almost no different then thousands of $10,000 cars that still exist,so it is possible that someone could fix a destroyed $250k car by using a body from a $10k car and swapping the VIN and related parts.This defies logic to the legal world since what we are really saying is that it is the VIN number and not the actually metal of the car that makes it worth so much.When this happens,it just makes sense that these valubale VINs are being kept in working order by being transported around by new body shells.

Forgeries are rampant in the collector world.Coins,Hummels,stamps,guns,war stuff.It is all illegal.The fact that car restorers can forge a valuable car by using the body of a less valuebale car is like saying I can recreate loads of super rare coins by taking coins of a similar vintage and restamping them in my bogus stamping machine.

A rebody is illegal for a different reason then just the federal laws pertaining to VIN numbers,it is illegal because what is touted as a mint condition collectable is actually a counterfiet.That constitute fraud regardless of where the VIN tag came from.

As long as VIN numbers and not the condition of the vehicle determine value the old VIN swithceroo fraud will be a battle.

Re: proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)
 

Quite simply put a rebody is illegal. Rich hit it on the head that it is illegal and the end result is a counterfeit.

I am sure that there must exist some legal method to allow the transfer of a VIN to another body based on the current condition of the original body. Although I am sure this exists, I have never seen anyone provide any legal documentation to validate that the transfer of the vin to the new body they are selling was done correctly. With this being said, I would conclude that all the rebodied cars are illegal and the DMV would must likely have the person who created the car arrested. In NYC we have a section of the police department called Auto Crime. If these guys caught you doing this or caught you with a car that has had the vin swapped I am very sure you would be arrested and the car confiscated. In NYC they do not tolerate any of these questionable swaps.