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Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 years
Monday, Nov. 09, 2009
A challenge to find the Challenger of youth Buddy Whittington's search for the 1971 Dodge Challenger that was stolen from his grandfather nearly 28 years ago came to an end last week. But the Surfside Beach resident's reunion with the rare muscle car has raised questions about the national network of collectors who think nothing of spending six figures for the car of their dreams - and the lengths some people will go to sell them that car. It's a world where documents can be falsified, car titles muddied, original parts switched for fakes and the car you think you're getting isn't really the one you get. "I don't want to say it happens a lot, but it happens," said Deane Fehrman of Golden, Colo., a classic car expert and nationally recognized automobile appraiser. When the economy was booming, "people were paying outrageous prices for those cars." While the Dodge Challenger finally is back where it belongs, law enforcement officials say the mystery surrounding the car's fortunes for more than a quarter-century probably never will be solved. The FBI found Whittington's car last year in a garage in Lincoln, Neb., putting an end to a decadelong investigation by Whittington and the bureau in which the Challenger was tracked through a series of buyers stretching from the East Coast to the Midwest. The FBI eventually seized the car, and the U.S. Marshals Service helped escort the Challenger - with an estimated value topping $100,000 - out of Nebraska and back to its rightful owner. Whittington said he was thrilled when the car was delivered to his home last week. He still has Polaroid photos - some of them starting to fade - of him proudly standing next to the car as a child. And he remembers talking his father into letting him drive the car to high school despite its top speed of 166 mph. "I wound up getting a speeding ticket," Whittington said. "My dad wanted to sell it after that, but nobody would buy it because it uses so much gas." Along with the memories that resurfaced last week, however, was a gut feeling that the Challenger had played a role in some type of car collector's conspiracy. "The car has been robbed of some of its parts," Whittington said. "The hood has been changed. It used to have a vinyl top, but now it's a hardtop. You can tell it's been painted, the headlights have been switched and some of the chrome doesn't match up." Even more perplexing, he said, was the metal plate stamped with a series of numeric codes - known as a fender tag - that had been attached to the car inside the engine bay. Similar to an automobile's vehicle identification number, or VIN, the numerals on a fender tag detail every part and option specific to the car on which it is attached - from the type of engine and transmission that were installed to the location of the factory that built it and even whether the car has a locking gas cap. The VIN proved Whittington's Challenger was the same one his grandfather had purchased decades ago. But someone had switched the fender tag to make it appear as if the alterations the car had undergone since it was stolen were original. One of eight made Whittington's grandfather, the late E.K. Whittington Sr., bought the Challenger new in 1970 from the old Clark Motors dealership that was located on what is now Mr. Joe White Avenue in Myrtle Beach. A special-order car, the Challenger had a 440 cubic inch six-pack engine with a shaker hood and top-of-the-line options. Whittington still has some of the canceled checks his grandfather wrote while making the $85 monthly payments on the car, a custom model that was one of only eight that Dodge ever produced. "My grandfather was 66 years old at the time, and he had just retired from the railroad," Whittington said. "He had always been a car enthusiast, and [Clark Motors] talked him into getting that car." The Challenger's thirst for fuel - the car averages six miles per gallon or less, depending on the speed it's driven - was tough to bear during the Nixon-era oil crisis, and the car simply became too expensive to operate when a second energy crisis hit in 1979. The car, with just 41,000 miles on its odometer, eventually was put into storage in a Conway warehouse. It was stolen from that warehouse on New Year's Day in 1982. The thieves were never caught and, since the car had been placed in storage, the insurance policy had been allowed to lapse so there was no coverage for the loss. "We heard all kinds of stories back then, that someone was using it as a drag racing car or it had been cut up to make a race car," Whittington said. "It was all rumors, though. We never knew for sure what happened to it." Whittington went about his life for the next 16 years or so, but never completely forgot about the car his grandfather had loved. "We didn't lose hope that we'd find it, but nobody knew anything about where it could be," he said. Then, in 1998, Whittington bought his first computer and the possibility of locating the car through the Internet became almost an obsession. "One day I was online and I came across a car for sale and it was a 1971 Dodge with 41,000 original miles," Whittington said. "I said, 'That's got to be it.'" Whittington sent an e-mail to the seller, who was located in Wisconsin, and asked for the car's VIN. The response perfectly matched the VIN on his grandfather's car, but the seller said the Internet listing was outdated - the Challenger had already been sold. Whittington continued to dig and eventually traced the car's chain of possession from a series of buyers dating back to 1992 up to the last known purchasers - Anthony Capcino and Brian Simcox, both of Bensalem, Pa. - who had bought the car for $35,000 from a man in Sterling Heights, Mich. The car had been through at least eight owners by that point, including Jeff Bobst - the Waverly, Iowa, man who built all of the muscle cars used in the "Nash Bridges" television series. Wanting to document that the car was stolen, Whittington said he asked the Conway Police Department for a copy of the 1982 incident report. "They couldn't find anything," he said. "They said all of the records had been destroyed [in 1999] by Hurricane Floyd." Whittington sought help from the S.C. Department of Motor Vehicles, the State Law Enforcement Division and others, but said he could not generate any interest in his case. Whittington eventually met with an investigator from the 15th Judicial Circuit Solicitor's Office, who put him in touch with the FBI in 2006. 'That famous stolen car' The FBI's investigation centered on Paul Christopherson, a Lincoln, Neb., man agents believe purchased the Challenger from Capcino and Simcox for about $45,000 on an eBay auction in early 2004, according to court documents used to obtain a seizure warrant for the car. Christopherson, who is listed as the principal of classic car dealership Mid America Motors, did not respond to The Sun News' request for comments. Whittington first made contact with Christopherson in 2005, the court documents show, and he secretly recorded several of their telephone conversations that year. The court documents show that during one of those conversations, Christopherson told Whittington to meet him in Iowa with $45,000 and a trailer if he wanted to retrieve his car. Christopherson also told Whittington during a recorded conversation that he should not contact the police because something might happen to the car. "It could come up missing or damaged or just plain missing," Christopherson told Whittington. Christopherson also told Whittington that he had connections with muscle car magazine publishers who could boost the Challenger's value if he was willing to cooperate. "After I get that thing put in a magazine, after all that's done and I get that story published, that car is going to be worth 175 [thousand dollars]," Christopherson said. "Because that's going to be that famous stolen car. Any novelty to these cars just really adds up." In another conversation, Whittington questions whether Christopherson will rob him if he shows up with $45,000 to buy back his car. Christopherson tells Whittington to call Galen Govier, a noted expert on Dodge muscle cars, as a reference. "You can call Galen Govier or I can call Galen and have him call you and you can ask him, 'Can I trust Paul or is he going to put a gun to my head for $40,000,'" Christopherson said in the recorded telephone conversation. Govier, who lives in Prairie Du Chien, Wis., did not respond to The Sun News' request for comments. Whittington said he tried to contact Govier in 2005 but could not get past his secretary. "His secretary told me Govier charges $75 an hour for consultations," Whittington said. "I gave her my credit card number and told her she could charge me for two hours, but I just needed 10 minutes of his time." The secretary promised that Govier would call back, but Whittington said the call never came. The FBI, however, did interview Govier on Jan. 24, 2008, according to the court documents. During that interview, Govier told an agent that he knew Christopherson had owned the car since 2004. "Govier recalled having a telephone conversation with Christopherson about the Challenger, and produced an invoice documenting that Govier charged Christopherson a 12-minute consultation fee for their conversation, which took place on Feb. 25, 2004, at 3:30 p.m.," the court documents state. Three weeks later, the FBI interviewed Christopherson, who denied ever owning or possessing the Challenger. Christopherson told the FBI that Whittington was harassing him about the car, so he made up the story about owning the car and his offer to sell it back. The investigation dragged on for months until the FBI learned that the car was being stored in a garage belonging to Dennis Smith, a Lincoln, Neb., man who had been doing business with Christopherson for years. Smith did not respond to a request for comment. On Nov. 7, 2008, federal Judge Thomas Rogers - based on evidence gathered by the FBI and Assistant U.S. Attorney Stan Ragsdale - signed a seizure warrant for the car and the FBI retrieved the Challenger from Smith's garage a week later. The car was impounded for nearly a year while its true ownership was established and to give Smith and others an opportunity to dispute the seizure. At 4 p.m. on Nov. 1, the car was delivered to Whittington's home in The Lakes subdivision. In the nearly 28 years since the Challenger had been stolen, the odometer shows it had been driven less than 1,000 miles. New tags and old tags It was the FBI's interview with Govier last year that sparked Whittington's suspicion there might be an organized effort to hide the true ownership of stolen muscle cars. Govier operates a business called Galen's Tag Service LLC, which reproduces rusty or missing fender tags for Dodge, Plymouth and Chrysler products made between 1962 and 1974. Govier charges between $110 and $165 for that service, according to his Web site. Govier told the FBI that in 1998 that he made a fender tag for the Challenger that had been stolen from Whittington's grandfather. Govier said he made the fender tag for a man in Elkton, Minn., who owned the car at that time. There is no way to know whether the Govier-produced fender tag is the same one that is on Whittington's car today. Whittington said he is not accusing anyone of wrongdoing, but that it would be easy to alter a car's appearance and then switch the fender tag to make it appear as if no changes had been made. Linda Keene, the Myrtle Beach FBI agent who led the investigation, said there is no indication Govier did anything wrong. She said the car has been missing for so long that it is impossible to tell who might have switched out parts, gotten rid of the vinyl top or changed the tag. "I'm not sure we could ever determine that due to the amount of time that has passed and the number of people who have possessed the car," Keene said, adding that the statute of limitations has expired for the original theft. "Our investigation is pretty much over at this point." Fehrman, the classic car expert, said the most likely purpose in switching one fender tag for another is to "camouflage the car, or help disguise it" if the automobile was stolen. He said Govier has an impeccable reputation and any fender tag he produces is legitimate. "If he certifies a car, that's as good as it gets other than having God come down and certify it," Fehrman said. Govier's certifications and fender tags are so reliable, Fehrman said, that classic car enthusiasts generally believe that "if he says it, that's the way it is. It's a good thing he's an honest person." Still, Whittington said he wonders whether somewhere along the line someone produced a bogus fender tag to prevent his stolen car from being identified. He said fender tags also could be falsified as part of an effort to turn a common vehicle - for instance, a 1971 Dodge Challenger with a 383-cubic inch engine - into a rare, high-performance model like the one he owns. "You could switch some of the parts and make a $25,000 car look like a $125,000 car," he said. Fehrman said there is a growing market for cars that are rebuilt to look like expensive originals - called "clone cars" - because many people cannot afford the rare classics. "People will say, 'If I can't have the real thing, then I'll just get a clone,'" he said. "Sometimes, those clones get passed off as the real thing." Fehrman said it is likely Whittington can restore his Challenger to nearly its full value by replacing the stolen parts. "It won't be what it was, but if he can put the legitimate parts back he would have what we call a restored car," Fehrman said. "And when you have a car that rare, a restored one can be nearly as valuable as the original." Whittington said he hopes to restore the car as close as possible to its original condition but the value is secondary. "I didn't spend the last 10 years searching for this car because of the money," he said. "I did it because of what the car means to me." http://www.thesunnews.com/news/local/story/1155538.html |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 years
Christopherson, sounds like a snake, glad to see this car cwent back home, would love to know the options and color of this car, I looked at a gold 6 pack challenger years ago that had bean messed with, gold and black, it had no fender tag at the time but had the shaker hood, you could see the tag had bean removed day's before I seen the car? scared me. Rich
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
This story has been on at least two Mopar sites in the last week or so.
Talk about a bunch of people that have no idea of what they are saying. Not to mention, the police had no record of the original theift? The V.I.N. had apparently never been tampered with, which as we know tells us the model, engine, year, and plant built in of the car. They go on and on about the fender tag and how it was changed to HIDE the true identity of the car. What a bunch of IDIOTS. The police don't look at the fender tag to determine the identity of a car but rather the V.I.N. We all know that often times fender tags are missing and it means nothing LEGALLY. Now if you don't have a V.I.N. tag and try to get a car registered in a state that requires a physical inspection your going to have some explaining to do. The car will NEVER get registered without one and you run the risk of having the car impounded by the authorities. This story is the kind of thing that makes people THINK that an items like a fender tag has some kind of LEGAL signifigance. I can assure you that it does NOT. This also brings to mind recent posts about the strength of the NICB in recovering stolen cars. Although the posts were more about IDing rebodies. This just goes to show you that there are plenty of holes in THEIR system that prevent them from finding stolen cars that are still running around WITH their ORIGINAL V.I.N. plates in place. If this is the case how in the world do we think they are ever going to be able to truely identify a rebodied car that was never stolen or had any stolen parts used? |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
The ad says that Govier made a fender tag for a man in 1998 from Elkton MN. That has to be the one and only Fred Engelhart a mopar broker. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
"...We all know that often times fender tags are missing and it means nothing LEGALLY..."
It sure means something legally in Oklahoma!. Ask Lynn!. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...fpart/all/vc/1 Great the Challenger is back home!. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif ~ Pete -------------------- I like real cars best...the REAL real ones! |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
"If he certifies a car, that's as good as it gets other than having God come down and certify it,"
LOL Kool-Aid anyone? |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
"the car was delivered to Whittington's home in The Lakes subdivision"
That's my hood, I'll look this guy up when I go down in the winter. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
"...We all know that often times fender tags are missing and it means nothing LEGALLY..." It sure means something legally in Oklahoma!. Ask Lynn!. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...fpart/all/vc/1 Great the Challenger is back home!. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif ~ Pete -------------------- I like real cars best...the REAL real ones! [/ QUOTE ] My whole point to posting about this was to point out that law enforcement was looking at the WRONG things with regards to this car? Yes, a fender tag on a 1969 and newer Mopar does have the V.I.N. on it. Maybe that was changed on this car maybe not. The point to this is that the car STILL had the original V.I.N. as it had when stolen. We all know it it very easy to get a new title for an old car. So, if there is no check by DMVs in all states for stolen vehicles by V.I.N. then the only time a stolen car is going to be recovered is by LUCK or insurance investigators checking V.I.N.s at car shows etc. This is not just MY opinion, as I just two weeks ago had my 1981 H.D. Sturgis Lowrider stolen. The insurance investigator told me that they have a fair recovery of stolen motorcycles because they DO check V.I.N.s at motorcycle gathering. The bottom line here is that a stolen vehicle can be re-registered in another's name with the original V.I.N. and could never be discovered. It would be very simple to avoid this if ALL state DMVs files would flag stolen V.I.N.s when someone tried to register it. I just read the law posted on the link. That law doesn't really have much for teeth as it is a misdemeanor for first offense. Seems pretty obvious that some judge or law maker in OK. felt like they got burned on an old car and are trying to plug holes. SOMEONE with some clout got that law enacted. It allows for additional civil action to recover "damages" which is probably the real reason behind the law. Mopar fender tags for 68 and older don't have the V.I.N. on them so unless you have a broadcast sheet, window sticker, or IBM card to cross reference the "hidden numbers" (Sales Order numbers)to the V.I.N. how could you PROVE what fender tag belongs on which car in the case of 68 and older Mopar cars? Up until this OK law NO STATE has ever recognized anything other than the combination of legal title and V.I.N. plate as legal identifiers for vehicles. This OK law also has exceptions for removal for restoration, which is typically when the monkey business begins. Who is going to be charged with the lose of a trim tag during restoration? My guess is that at least 75% of them are lost by body shops. Some are misplaced and forgotten when a nervious seller removes it for safe keeping. How do you know who and when removed one? How are you going to prove that one is a reproduction and who and when it was done unless someone that was involved in it admits to it? Good luck in that case. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
I looked at that car 20 miles from my house, (if it's the same car), I found it quite strange that there was no tag on the car, but there had bean one on it since it was painted. at the time the upper controll arms were switched from side to side in the front so if you turned the wheels the tires would tip over. 17000.00 if I remember correct, it was such a cool car I almost talked myself into buying the thing anyway, but if this is the same car I'm glad I walked on it now for sure.
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
this is amazing story, more of them are popping up all the time
here is a TRUE story of a 65 FI Corvette that was stolen in 1970 a neighbor of mine bought it this summer from a dealer in CA the car had been owned by the last owner for nearly 20 years and it had been registered in CA every one of those 19 years. That owner bought the car with a good NJ title in the 80's He then had it inspected (as all out of state cars have to be) and then registered and was given a clear title (one in his name) When my neighbor took the car to the AZ station to have it inspected (I think most every state has this process) it came back from the NICB as being stolen ... in 1970 Regardless of the train of titles or proof of purchase it was confiscated that was back in June, he just had a court hearing with all the "investigators" (insurance) and the judge said she would get back to them ... meanwhile he is out his $55k and the car sat outside all summer (did I mention this was a NCRS level "restored" car?) the original owner had let his insurance lapse before the car was stolen it was stolen in TN and recovered that year in IL and then sold at a sheriffs auction that was in 1970 fast forward to 2009 the owner of the car when it was stolen finds out that his old car was recovered in AZ what does he do? He goes down to the TN DMV and requests a duplicate title for the VIN number he now has ... they give him one without his having to show any proof so now the car has TWO titles ... it is still unraveling, the dealer in CA "jumped" the title ... the car WAS insured before it was confiscated just a giant cluster as to who gets what (the TN man wants his car back ... duh) our neighbors want their money or the car, but since it sat outside and still is he really does not want it back ... |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
The ad says that Govier made a fender tag for a man in 1998 from Elkton MN. That has to be the one and only Fred Engelhart a mopar broker. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif [/ QUOTE ] Here is the latest poop on that wheeler dealer: http://www.startribune.com/business/...P:DiiUiacyKUUr [img]http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/502*335/1carfraud1120.jpg[/img] |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
This also brings to mind recent posts about the strength of the NICB in recovering stolen cars. Although the posts were more about IDing rebodies. This just goes to show you that there are plenty of holes in THEIR system that prevent them from finding stolen cars that are still running around WITH their ORIGINAL V.I.N. plates in place. If this is the case how in the world do we think they are ever going to be able to truely identify a rebodied car that was never stolen or had any stolen parts used? [/ QUOTE ] If the Challenger was stolen and then went from collector to collector without being registered, then it would be very difficult to locate the car by any police officer simply running the VIN. If it was an insured car and reported stolen originally then NICB would have the theft in their database. If it was not insured at the time of the theft then NICB wouldn't get the info to put into their database. The lesson here is keep your car properly insured if it is in storage. The good thing is that since the car wasn't insured for the theft at the time, it went back to the original owner and not the insurance company. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This also brings to mind recent posts about the strength of the NICB in recovering stolen cars. Although the posts were more about IDing rebodies. This just goes to show you that there are plenty of holes in THEIR system that prevent them from finding stolen cars that are still running around WITH their ORIGINAL V.I.N. plates in place. If this is the case how in the world do we think they are ever going to be able to truely identify a rebodied car that was never stolen or had any stolen parts used? [/ QUOTE ] If the Challenger was stolen and then went from collector to collector without being registered, then it would be very difficult to locate the car by any police officer simply running the VIN. If it was an insured car and reported stolen originally then NICB would have the theft in their database. If it was not insured at the time of the theft then NICB wouldn't get the info to put into their database. The lesson here is keep your car properly insured if it is in storage. The good thing is that since the car wasn't insured for the theft at the time, it went back to the original owner and not the insurance company. [/ QUOTE ] I still don't understand the logic of replacing the fender tag on this car, unless the orginal was lost for some reason. It isn't going to hide the car when it still wears it's born with v.i.n.. And it isn't going to add value to the car, it was already a factory 440 Six Pack shaker hood 71 Challenger. I dunno, there's alot here that doesn't add up. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
"If he certifies a car, that's as good as it gets other than having God come down and certify it," LOL Kool-Aid anyone? [/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
this is amazing story, more of them are popping up all the time here is a TRUE story of a 65 FI Corvette that was stolen in 1970 a neighbor of mine bought it this summer from a dealer in CA the car had been owned by the last owner for nearly 20 years and it had been registered in CA every one of those 19 years. That owner bought the car with a good NJ title in the 80's He then had it inspected (as all out of state cars have to be) and then registered and was given a clear title (one in his name) When my neighbor took the car to the AZ station to have it inspected (I think most every state has this process) it came back from the NICB as being stolen ... in 1970 Regardless of the train of titles or proof of purchase it was confiscated that was back in June, he just had a court hearing with all the "investigators" (insurance) and the judge said she would get back to them ... meanwhile he is out his $55k and the car sat outside all summer (did I mention this was a NCRS level "restored" car?) the original owner had let his insurance lapse before the car was stolen it was stolen in TN and recovered that year in IL and then sold at a sheriffs auction that was in 1970 fast forward to 2009 the owner of the car when it was stolen finds out that his old car was recovered in AZ what does he do? He goes down to the TN DMV and requests a duplicate title for the VIN number he now has ... they give him one without his having to show any proof so now the car has TWO titles ... it is still unraveling, the dealer in CA "jumped" the title ... the car WAS insured before it was confiscated just a giant cluster as to who gets what (the TN man wants his car back ... duh) our neighbors want their money or the car, but since it sat outside and still is he really does not want it back ... [/ QUOTE ] Not really, and in AZ. you only need to have a car physically inspected if it has an out of state title. You don't have to have it inspected if it already has an AZ. title. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This also brings to mind recent posts about the strength of the NICB in recovering stolen cars. Although the posts were more about IDing rebodies. This just goes to show you that there are plenty of holes in THEIR system that prevent them from finding stolen cars that are still running around WITH their ORIGINAL V.I.N. plates in place. If this is the case how in the world do we think they are ever going to be able to truely identify a rebodied car that was never stolen or had any stolen parts used? [/ QUOTE ] If the Challenger was stolen and then went from collector to collector without being registered, then it would be very difficult to locate the car by any police officer simply running the VIN. If it was an insured car and reported stolen originally then NICB would have the theft in their database. If it was not insured at the time of the theft then NICB wouldn't get the info to put into their database. The lesson here is keep your car properly insured if it is in storage. The good thing is that since the car wasn't insured for the theft at the time, it went back to the original owner and not the insurance company. [/ QUOTE ] This is the point I am trying to make. The NICB was created to hopefully aid in recovering stolen cars and to share info with law enforcement. There is OBVIOUSLY a big hole in the system. Computers for large agencies like state DMVs have been around for a long time. How difficult can it be to simply enter ANY V.I.N. of a stolen car into a shared data base regardless of being and INSURED car or not? Even if there is no other shared data base other than NICB different states could certainly link to a list of stolen V.I.N. reports originating in THEIR state. Law enforcements FIRST responsibility is to the owner of the car that was violated and it being insured or noy is not their concern. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The ad says that Govier made a fender tag for a man in 1998 from Elkton MN. That has to be the one and only Fred Engelhart a mopar broker. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif [/ QUOTE ] Here is the latest poop on that wheeler dealer: http://www.startribune.com/business/...P:DiiUiacyKUUr [img]http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/502*335/1carfraud1120.jpg[/img] [/ QUOTE ] When all of this started a couple of years ago there were several posts about it on a popular Mopar site. From what I read about it, it sounded like he had actually borrowed a bunch of money from some WISE GUYS and sold some cars that he was brokering and never paid the owners. I think he was trying to bail himself out of his bad borrowing decision. Of course this doesn't excuse his actions. As usual, when people get in that kind of trouble it snowballs. He had been dealing Mopar hipo iron for a long time. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] This also brings to mind recent posts about the strength of the NICB in recovering stolen cars. Although the posts were more about IDing rebodies. This just goes to show you that there are plenty of holes in THEIR system that prevent them from finding stolen cars that are still running around WITH their ORIGINAL V.I.N. plates in place. If this is the case how in the world do we think they are ever going to be able to truely identify a rebodied car that was never stolen or had any stolen parts used? [/ QUOTE ] If the Challenger was stolen and then went from collector to collector without being registered, then it would be very difficult to locate the car by any police officer simply running the VIN. If it was an insured car and reported stolen originally then NICB would have the theft in their database. If it was not insured at the time of the theft then NICB wouldn't get the info to put into their database. The lesson here is keep your car properly insured if it is in storage. The good thing is that since the car wasn't insured for the theft at the time, it went back to the original owner and not the insurance company. [/ QUOTE ] This is the point I am trying to make. The NICB was created to hopefully aid in recovering stolen cars and to share info with law enforcement. There is OBVIOUSLY a big hole in the system. Computers for large agencies like state DMVs have been around for a long time. How difficult can it be to simply enter ANY V.I.N. of a stolen car into a shared data base regardless of being and INSURED car or not? Even if there is no other shared data base other than NICB different states could certainly link to a list of stolen V.I.N. reports originating in THEIR state. Law enforcements FIRST responsibility is to the owner of the car that was violated and it being insured or noy is not their concern. [/ QUOTE ] Here's the solution: Lets require anyone who steals a car to have to register it it so the police can find the car much easier. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif NICB is a private organization that collects information for insurance purposes. Law enforcement has access to NCIC, which is a criminal database that is federally regulated and cannot be accessed by non-law enforcement people nor can it be combined with any other non-secure database. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
"This story is the kind of thing that makes people THINK that an items like a fender tag has some kind of LEGAL signifigance. I can assure you that it does NOT."
New York Law § 421. Sale of a motor vehicle, trailer or part thereof with changed identification number. 1. Any person engaged in the business of buying or selling motor vehicles, trailers, or parts thereof, shall be presumed to have determined and to know the original vehicle identification numbers and special identification numbers on any motor vehicle, trailers or parts thereof purchased or sold by such person, both at the time of purchase and sale. 2. Any person engaged in the business of buying or selling motor vehicles, trailers, or parts thereof, who sells or offers for sale a motor vehicle, trailer, or part thereof, the original vehicle identification number or special identification number of which shall have been destroyed, removed, altered, defaced or so covered as to be effectually concealed, without having complied with regulations promulgated by the commissioner, shall be guilty of a class E felony. 3. Any person, other than a person engaged in the business of buying or selling motor vehicles, trailers, or parts thereof, who knowingly sells or offers for sale a motor vehicle, trailer, or part thereof, the original vehicle identification number or special identification number of which shall have been destroyed, removed, altered, defaced or so covered as to be effectually concealed shall be guilty of a class E felony. 4. For the purposes of this article, the term "original identification number" shall mean any number embossed, engraved, etched, affixed to a label, sticker or plate or similarly marked on any part of a motor vehicle, trailer or vehicle part which is assigned by the manufacturer for the purpose of identification of that particular motor vehicle, trailer or vehicle part and the location of which number is made available to the public. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
I do give Fred one thing. He can throw on one hell of a show on main street. They like their nice high end Mopars, show them, and let them stretch their legs.
Lots of high end people from the past and present show up to them too...including the lovely Linda. And all of this happening in a little town of 149 people. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] This also brings to mind recent posts about the strength of the NICB in recovering stolen cars. Although the posts were more about IDing rebodies. This just goes to show you that there are plenty of holes in THEIR system that prevent them from finding stolen cars that are still running around WITH their ORIGINAL V.I.N. plates in place. If this is the case how in the world do we think they are ever going to be able to truely identify a rebodied car that was never stolen or had any stolen parts used? [/ QUOTE ] If the Challenger was stolen and then went from collector to collector without being registered, then it would be very difficult to locate the car by any police officer simply running the VIN. If it was an insured car and reported stolen originally then NICB would have the theft in their database. If it was not insured at the time of the theft then NICB wouldn't get the info to put into their database. The lesson here is keep your car properly insured if it is in storage. The good thing is that since the car wasn't insured for the theft at the time, it went back to the original owner and not the insurance company. [/ QUOTE ] This is the point I am trying to make. The NICB was created to hopefully aid in recovering stolen cars and to share info with law enforcement. There is OBVIOUSLY a big hole in the system. Computers for large agencies like state DMVs have been around for a long time. How difficult can it be to simply enter ANY V.I.N. of a stolen car into a shared data base regardless of being and INSURED car or not? Even if there is no other shared data base other than NICB different states could certainly link to a list of stolen V.I.N. reports originating in THEIR state. Law enforcements FIRST responsibility is to the owner of the car that was violated and it being insured or noy is not their concern. [/ QUOTE ] Here's the solution: Lets require anyone who steals a car to have to register it it so the police can find the car much easier. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif NICB is a private organization that collects information for insurance purposes. Law enforcement has access to NCIC, which is a criminal database that is federally regulated and cannot be accessed by non-law enforcement people nor can it be combined with any other non-secure database. [/ QUOTE ] If the info can't be shared with state DMV offices (which is where these stolen cars are being re-registered with the original V.I.N.s,) then it seems to me the SOLUTION is for there to be a SHARED DMV database for all states that law enforcement should report stolen vehicle reports to. Seem pretty simple to me. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
There are time limits for data retention based on storage capacity. There is a certain amount of time that vehicle registration information stays in DMV records. There is simply not enough capacity, both for the physical storage of paper records and the storage of digital records to retain the information for every car ever registered since 1898. Usually its 15 to 20 years. After that it's purged from their systems. NICB holds onto to data much longer due to the possibility of monetary claims arising from past losses.
Yes, it would be nice to have NICB accessible by DMVs but it is only open to law enforcement and insurance fraud investigators. One of the problems is that not many law enforcement people know about it. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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This is the point I am trying to make. The NICB was created to hopefully aid in recovering stolen cars and to share info with law enforcement. There is OBVIOUSLY a big hole in the system. Computers for large agencies like state DMVs have been around for a long time. How difficult can it be to simply enter ANY V.I.N. of a stolen car into a shared data base regardless of being and INSURED car or not? Even if there is no other shared data base other than NICB different states could certainly link to a list of stolen V.I.N. reports originating in THEIR state. Law enforcements FIRST responsibility is to the owner of the car that was violated and it being insured or noy is not their concern. [/ QUOTE ] A car does NOT have to be insured to be in the NICB data base as a stolen vehicle. NICB IS tied into every state's stolen vehicle data base system. No holes. The issue is that most thefts are purged from the stolen data base in most states after a determined amount of years and frequently don't get re-entered (this is the hole in the system). Most law enforcement don't even know about the ability to check with NICB for a records check unless they have been an auto theft investigator. NICB does not purge the theft info. Whoops; I see that I responded before reading njsteve's posts that already addressed the issue. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
You would think that if G.G. had an invoice of a 12 minute conversation, He would also have an invoice for the fender tag he made complete with the new numbers. That would prove whether or not the tag on the car now is the one he made.
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
Galen is a very hard man to reach. I was trying to sell one of my mopars a year ago and his secretary returned my email, after several attempts of my own, 4 months later. Would have been nice, I was looking to get my fender tag certified by him. The buyer(s) feel better if he gives it his blessing. A year prior to that I left 2-3 phone messages, and emails and never got a return anything.
IMO I don't care how busy you are, common business practice should always be getting back to your CUSTOMERS within a business day or 2 at most. Still disturbs me... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This is the point I am trying to make. The NICB was created to hopefully aid in recovering stolen cars and to share info with law enforcement. There is OBVIOUSLY a big hole in the system. Computers for large agencies like state DMVs have been around for a long time. How difficult can it be to simply enter ANY V.I.N. of a stolen car into a shared data base regardless of being and INSURED car or not? Even if there is no other shared data base other than NICB different states could certainly link to a list of stolen V.I.N. reports originating in THEIR state. Law enforcements FIRST responsibility is to the owner of the car that was violated and it being insured or noy is not their concern. [/ QUOTE ] A car does NOT have to be insured to be in the NICB data base as a stolen vehicle. NICB IS tied into every state's stolen vehicle data base system. No holes. The issue is that most thefts are purged from the stolen data base in most states after a determined amount of years and frequently don't get re-entered (this is the hole in the system). Most law enforcement don't even know about the ability to check with NICB for a records check unless they have been an auto theft investigator. NICB does not purge the theft info. Whoops; I see that I responded before reading njsteve's posts that already addressed the issue. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif [/ QUOTE ] I didn't say that a car had to be stolen to be in the NICB files, that was njsteve. My comments about it were in response to what he said about it. Seems to be some differences of opinion about what is in there files and how they are shared. I will leave it to the two of you to work out as I obviously don't know for sure. I have now personally had two vehicles stolen in my lifetime and from the latest conversation with my insurance company investigator it is pretty evident that a stolen vehicle can certainly be re-registered with the original V.I.N. and not be detected through the DMV. THIS is the big HOLE I am referring to. It seems pretty silly that we have V.I.N.s to accurately identify our vehicles but it doesn't seem to stop a thief (or someone they sell it to) from re-registering it with that same number. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
NICB does allow public access to run a VIN through them to show if it's stolen;
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
One thing I get out of this thread, is that people are overlooking why the fender tag may have been changed. The "mopar idiots" aren't too far off in my opinion.
It was not about hiding the VIN, since DUH, it is still on the car. I think the scumbag's objective was to make the car different from its original configuration yet still desireable, so that someone looking for the car within the hobby, would think this was a different car. Just my theory. JG https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
Could be. But if I was going to the trouble of having a new tag made, I would have at least changed it to a more desirable color. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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Could be. But if I was going to the trouble of having a new tag made, I would have at least changed it to a more desirable color. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] My thought as well. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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[ QUOTE ] Could be. But if I was going to the trouble of having a new tag made, I would have at least changed it to a more desirable color. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] My thought as well. [/ QUOTE ] Paint is a little more expensive to change https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
fact.a new fender tag was put on this car. fact . it was not the true way this car was optioned when new. how many more are there? who else paid for it? i have the orig photos and proof that it was different! another fact, theese people moved a car with a RED FLAG ALERT on it. they knew what they were doing. i emailed govier back in 98-9 with the vin and warned about the theft two different times, plus called 2 or 3 more! a computer forensic specialist foud the entry in NCIB data base. the ncic is for current entrys. afterwards they are purged into the ncib for statistical purposes for the FBI.the story refers to fender tags to show how a car can become altered for many reasons; ex; add a sun roof , or super trac pack, shaker hood!!! and WAY UP goes the value of that car! point is a 30k car can get a nice 30k boost with some nice options. __bottom line_$$there is so much that did not make the news!! Buddy Whittington <font color="blue"> </font>
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Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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fact.a new fender tag was put on this car. fact . it was not the true way this car was optioned when new. how many more are there? who else paid for it? i have the orig photos and proof that it was different! another fact, theese people moved a car with a RED FLAG ALERT on it. they knew what they were doing. i emailed govier back in 98-9 with the vin and warned about the theft two different times, plus called 2 or 3 more! a computer forensic specialist foud the entry in NCIB data base. the ncic is for current entrys. afterwards they are purged into the ncib for statistical purposes for the FBI.the story refers to fender tags to show how a car can become altered for many reasons; ex; add a sun roof , or super trac pack, shaker hood!!! and WAY UP goes the value of that car! point is a 30k car can get a nice 30k boost with some nice options. __bottom line_$$there is so much that did not make the news!! Buddy Whittington <font color="blue"> </font> [/ QUOTE ] Spill the beans. Sites like this are a great way to get the real story out to people who actually give a damn about the cars. Unless you're unable to for legal reasons. By the way, I'm glad you found the old girl. Awesome work on your part. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 years
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Christopherson, sounds like a snake, glad to see this car cwent back home, would love to know the options and color of this car, I looked at a gold 6 pack challenger years ago that had bean messed with, gold and black, it had no fender tag at the time but had the shaker hood, you could see the tag had bean removed day's before I seen the car? scared me. Rich [/ QUOTE ] ill get the info out when i get a little more time ...U NO .... holidays, BUDDY WHITTINGTON |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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[ QUOTE ] fact.a new fender tag was put on this car. fact . it was not the true way this car was optioned when new. how many more are there? who else paid for it? i have the orig photos and proof that it was different! another fact, theese people moved a car with a RED FLAG ALERT on it. they knew what they were doing. i emailed govier back in 98-9 with the vin and warned about the theft two different times, plus called 2 or 3 more! a computer forensic specialist foud the entry in NCIB data base. the ncic is for current entrys. afterwards they are purged into the ncib for statistical purposes for the FBI.the story refers to fender tags to show how a car can become altered for many reasons; ex; add a sun roof , or super trac pack, shaker hood!!! and WAY UP goes the value of that car! point is a 30k car can get a nice 30k boost with some nice options. __bottom line_$$there is so much that did not make the news!! Buddy Whittington <font color="blue"> </font> [/ QUOTE ] Spill the beans. Sites like this are a great way to get the real story out to people who actually give a damn about the cars. Unless you're unable to for legal reasons. By the way, I'm glad you found the old girl. Awesome work on your part. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif [/ QUOTE ]NO TIME TODAY.. WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW ? ILL DO MY BEST .. BUDDY WHITTINGTON |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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"This story is the kind of thing that makes people THINK that an items like a fender tag has some kind of LEGAL signifigance. I can assure you that it does NOT." New York Law § 421. Sale of a motor vehicle, trailer or part thereof with changed identification number. 1. Any person engaged in the business of buying or selling motor vehicles, trailers, or parts thereof, shall be presumed to have determined and to know the original vehicle identification numbers and special identification numbers on any motor vehicle, trailers or parts thereof purchased or sold by such person, both at the time of purchase and sale. 2. Any person engaged in the business of buying or selling motor vehicles, trailers, or parts thereof, who sells or offers for sale a motor vehicle, trailer, or part thereof, the original vehicle identification number or special identification number of which shall have been destroyed, removed, altered, defaced or so covered as to be effectually concealed, without having complied with regulations promulgated by the commissioner, shall be guilty of a class E felony. 3. Any person, other than a person engaged in the business of buying or selling motor vehicles, trailers, or parts thereof, who knowingly sells or offers for sale a motor vehicle, trailer, or part thereof, the original vehicle identification number or special identification number of which shall have been destroyed, removed, altered, defaced or so covered as to be effectually concealed shall be guilty of a class E felony. 4. For the purposes of this article, the term "original identification number" shall mean any number embossed, engraved, etched, affixed to a label, sticker or plate or similarly marked on any part of a motor vehicle, trailer or vehicle part which is assigned by the manufacturer for the purpose of identification of that particular motor vehicle, trailer or vehicle part and the location of which number is made available to the public. [/ QUOTE ]LOOKS LIKE THE LAW SEES IT AS ANY NUMBER EMBOSSED OR STAMPED.. A DOOR STICKER OR FENDER TAG WOULD APPLY HERE. MORE IMPORTANTLY, FALSELY ALTERING THE OPTION TAG TO INCREASE VALUE AND THEN SELLING IT AS REAL IS OUTRIGHT FRAUD! <font color="blue"> <font color="blue"> </font> |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] fact.a new fender tag was put on this car. fact . it was not the true way this car was optioned when new. how many more are there? who else paid for it? i have the orig photos and proof that it was different! another fact, theese people moved a car with a RED FLAG ALERT on it. they knew what they were doing. i emailed govier back in 98-9 with the vin and warned about the theft two different times, plus called 2 or 3 more! a computer forensic specialist foud the entry in NCIB data base. the ncic is for current entrys. afterwards they are purged into the ncib for statistical purposes for the FBI.the story refers to fender tags to show how a car can become altered for many reasons; ex; add a sun roof , or super trac pack, shaker hood!!! and WAY UP goes the value of that car! point is a 30k car can get a nice 30k boost with some nice options. __bottom line_$$there is so much that did not make the news!! Buddy Whittington <font color="blue"> </font> [/ QUOTE ] Spill the beans. Sites like this are a great way to get the real story out to people who actually give a damn about the cars. Unless you're unable to for legal reasons. By the way, I'm glad you found the old girl. Awesome work on your part. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif [/ QUOTE ]NO TIME TODAY.. WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW ? ILL DO MY BEST .. BUDDY WHITTINGTON [/ QUOTE ] You said that there was so much that didn't make the news. I was wondering if you could share some of that. No pressure, no rush, it's just curiosity on my part. |
Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
Buddy,a trim tag or fender tag is not part of a stamped or embossed method of identifying a vehicle since the codes on these tags are shared with other vehicles that could have identical tags.If it doesnt have the exact VIN of the vehicle on it,it is not an identifying tag.Changing a trim tag is no more an offense as installing a 454 emblem where a 307 emblem used to be.To put this into perspective,you could buy a pontiac firebird,change all the sheet metal to chevy camaro metal,put camaro emblems all over it and as long as the title tag and hidden vin's all match up you are perfectly legal.
There would be some slightly gray area here though.One area would be a tag that had both the VIN and option codes on it.If such a tag were replaced with a replica and carried the original VIN but new option codes things could get messy.An owner could say that the original tag was damaged to the point it was almost unreadable,and was duplicated from what could best be derived.As far as tags that dont carry the VIN,there are few laws against it. As for that law in Ok. it doesn have much teeth other then in the collector car world since anybody can simply walk into the DMV and change the color of the vehicle on a title.Some states require that you have pictures of the car in a new color,but even thats a scam since if you repainted the car to hide the fact it is stolen of course you will have pictures of it in the new color. |
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