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Pontiac may be dead by monday..
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
They may all be dead by Monday! The unions killed them just as skillfully as the military took out the pirates!!!
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
Maybe they'll make the G8 a Chevelle SS or something.
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
The UAW has added no value in the last twenty years and has single handed brought the company to its knees thru it unwillingness to share in the bad times. When things are good they want it all but when things decline, they stand on the necks of good companies and make unreasonable demands. If not for the unions, we would be able to buy a car at a reasonable price and not have to worry about quality. Dont get me wrong, I drive all Chevys and am a GM loyalist but this is ridiculous that the UAW is willing to make NO concessions to assist in cost cutting measures.
Years ago up here in Framingham Mass, GM built a $3m paint plant added on to their existing facility where they built Buicks. The union took strike after GM tried to hire more people to reduce overtime and GM told them they would close the plant if they did not give a bit, and no one ever thought they would having just built the new paint plant. Guess what happened, GM padlocked it, called their bluff and put thousands out of work, people that were getting $30hr to turn 6 door bolts had to get regular paying jobs like you and me and found out the hard way that the union screwed them all in the end. Sorry for the rant, most of the GM mess was probably avoidable. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
Your key words Scott, were "Years ago". Over the last 15 years GM has somehow disarmed and castrated the auto workers unions in Canada and the US. In Oshawa, years ago, there were sit down strikes and all sorts of stuff. I saw the changes. Guys who retired even ten years ago would not recognize the place now. Now, if a guy threatens to call a committeeman, the foreman literally laughs in his face. They are NOT powerful unions any more, but we ARE living with the management and union mistakes of the past and it is killing the North American auto industry. They are talking the big bluff, but the unions know what it takes to keep their jobs when push comes to shove in these times. There will be concessions and big ones. Scary times ahead.
With Buick so popular in China, it was pretty obvious to me that Pontiac would be the first to go. There will be at least 2-3 more lines gone before this all shakes out. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
Wait a friggin minute. No Consession???? Do a google search on UAW consessions and get a clue. What are the unreasonable demands the UAW is making today. Dont bring up some plant that closed 25 years ago. The UAW has given up wages, benefits, days off, etc all in the name of saving the Big 3. Hell, if GM even gets right and hires people again they will make 14 bucks an hour. Thats not giving back??? Thats an unreasonable demand??? The UAW opened the contract, again, a few months ago. Ford workers ended the Jobs Bank, gave back paid holidays, and gave up tutition assistance. We also gave up future raises to help cover retiree health care, gave up cost of living, and no longer have the job classifications we used to have. No more cleaners, sweepers, material handlers. Only assembly work. We all work in teams like the Japanese do. And those working now will be the last to make a good wage. All new hires will make half what we do now.
So please tell me again how the UAW has done nothing. And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
It looks as though this link needs to be read again by some. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...fpart/all/vc/1 |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
Wait a friggin minute. No Consession???? Do a google search on UAW consessions and get a clue. What are the unreasonable demands the UAW is making today. Dont bring up some plant that closed 25 years ago. The UAW has given up wages, benefits, days off, etc all in the name of saving the Big 3. Hell, if GM even gets right and hires people again they will make 14 bucks an hour. Thats not giving back??? Thats an unreasonable demand??? The UAW opened the contract, again, a few months ago. Ford workers ended the Jobs Bank, gave back paid holidays, and gave up tutition assistance. We also gave up future raises to help cover retiree health care, gave up cost of living, and no longer have the job classifications we used to have. We all work in teams like the Japanese do. So please tell me again how the UAW has done nothing. And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality. [/ QUOTE ] X2 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
GM has no one to blame but themselves.
02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too... A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today. Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
All of the major manufacturers have a long history of pi@#ing away their brand equity. GM kills Oldsmobile, a company with 100 years of equity, and they keep Saturn? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality. [/ QUOTE ] If you want the guy criticizing unions to be objective, you also need to demonstrate objectivity with your comments or, at the very least, show where Japanese cars are equal in quality at best. I also think you're mistaken, if I infer this correctly, that non-union-built cars are not as good quality-wise. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
The poster said the domestics dont make cars with good quality at a reasonable price. Ford is in a statistical dead heat with Toyota and Honda in terms of initial quality. And their cars are on par or cheaper in price. With current incentives they are practically giving cars away. Thats my point.
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
GM has no one to blame but themselves. 02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too... A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today. Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM. [/ QUOTE ] The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
The only people that care about Pontiacs heritage are the ones driving OLD Pontiacs. New car buyers dont give a rip about Pontiacs or Toyotas or Nissans heritage.
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
If Pontiac goes toes up, I will very serioulsy consider buying one of those new G8 GT's asap, that is A LOT of High Performance car for the $$ and if GM stays around itself, they will have to service the stuff, could be a savvy buying opportunity
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
In my opinion GM started going down the tubes way back in the late 1970's when they started making a generic small block for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Olds to all use. One could no longer get an Olds Rocket V-8, Pontiac Ram Air, Chevy only small block, etc.
Then they started switching all their cars to front wheel drive, no matter the size. Now front wheel drive may be alright for small economy cars, but I would never want it in a mid-size or larger car. Then it seemed like GM forgot about quality in their cars all together. All they cared about was trucks and SUV's. All they cared about was what made for them the most profit, at the expense of quality cars. I feel this is what killed the Camaro as much as anything. As another poster mentioned they killed the Camaro to produce the horrendous SSR. GM hasn't had real car guys running it since the 1960's and early 1970's. Now GM has to pay the price for concentrating too much on trucks and SUV's and almost forgetting completely about cars. Why couldn't the Camaro have been redesigned with a lighter weight, smaller size, stripped version (Z28), etc. Ford did it (redesign) with the Mustang and never stopped producing it. In my opinion GM started the long downhill road in the late 1970's and hasn't been the same since. No wonder they have the problems like they do now. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] GM has no one to blame but themselves. 02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too... A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today. Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM. [/ QUOTE ] The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car. [/ QUOTE ] Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997. The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash. The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang. Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car. Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign. You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly. Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level. If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion GM started going down the tubes way back in the late 1970's when they started making a generic small block for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Olds to all use. [/ QUOTE ] Kinda eliminated the need for four different brands, huh?! |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada?
Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint. To another post . . . I don't think the general public really cares about what engine is in whichever GM car. They want to be able to get from Point A to Point B. GM's problems really started in the early-1970s with poor quality and poor gas mileage in a time when there was an oil embargo. And - admit it - the musclecars we love so much aren't really so great other than in our minds. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada? Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint. [/ QUOTE ] The original Plant was demolished. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Therese_Assembly I am sure that with truck sales being what they were the shareholders just loved GM's decision at the time. Within three years of the decision however-they figured out quick the real cost of lost brand loyalty and the Camaro concept was out for the media to gaze upon. Why?? after 02' Mustang sales increased with the Camaro/Firebird defections to Ford. Chrysler was watching too so the Challenger soon returned to fill the leftover market segment. Real expensive lesson if you ask me and since the Camaro is back - the original decision in 20/20 hindsight must have been bad after all- otherwise why is the car back? Same mistake is coming pertaining to Pontiac and that buying segment should the brand be killed. Likely that they will not buy GM in the future as they too will feel betrayed. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
I don't necessarily buy that prospective buyers went directly to Ford.
I also don't think the Challenger is a direct competitor to either of them. It's akin to having an Eclispe being a competitor to the Mustang - kinda, yes, but kinda, no. The Challenger, to me, is a 2-door Charger, FWIW. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
I don't necessarily buy that prospective buyers went directly to Ford. I also don't think the Challenger is a direct competitor to either of them. It's akin to having an Eclispe being a competitor to the Mustang - kinda, yes, but kinda, no. The Challenger, to me, is a 2-door Charger, FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with that...I know some guys, in this podunk town of just 600 people, that were left without a car [f-body] and went to the Mustang...and soon their truck purchases followed...as did their wive's car(s). https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif And I don't see *how* the Chally isn't a competitor to the F-body/Mustang...the target audience is the same, and everyone is comparing the 3. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
Mustang product planners discovered that when Camaro buyers couldn't afford insurance, they didn't go to a V6 Camaro - they went to a pickup truck.
Look at my Eclipse analogy again . . . the Challenger is quite a different car than the Mustang. The fact that it looks like a ponycar and it's inspired by one doesn't necessarily make it one, regardless to whom it's targeted. :twocents: |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with that...I know some guys, in this podunk town of just 600 people, that were left without a car [f-body] and went to the Mustang...and soon their truck purchases followed...as did their wive's car(s). https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif [/ QUOTE ] That is EXACTLY what I did. Since the Camaro was discontinued, my once ALL CHEVY driveway now includes a Ford, Dodge, and a Nissan. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] GM has no one to blame but themselves. 02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too... A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today. Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM. [/ QUOTE ] The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car. [/ QUOTE ] Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997. The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash. The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang. Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car. Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign. You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly. Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level. If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif [/ QUOTE ] Since when is a rollover NOT a crash??? I didnt say front impact or side impact. I said crash, which last time I checked can involve a rollover. Production totals fell by 50% from 1995 to 1996. What was the reason for that? The numbers stayed low from that point on. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada? Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint. To another post . . . I don't think the general public really cares about what engine is in whichever GM car. They want to be able to get from Point A to Point B. GM's problems really started in the early-1970s with poor quality and poor gas mileage in a time when there was an oil embargo. And - admit it - the musclecars we love so much aren't really so great other than in our minds. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. If GM made the decision to keep making engines for each brand they wouldve went bankrupt 20 years ago. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car. [/ QUOTE ] Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997. The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash. The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang. Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car. Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign. You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly. Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level. If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif [/ QUOTE ] Since when is a rollover NOT a crash??? I didnt say front impact or side impact. I said crash, which last time I checked can involve a rollover. Production totals fell by 50% from 1995 to 1996. What was the reason for that? The numbers stayed low from that point on. [/ QUOTE ] Yes a crash can include a rollover. Frontal impact, side impact and rear impact can be mitigated by vehicle improvements that typically do not cause a redesign. Why new roll over standards are tougher for an auto manufacturers is due to the increased roof crush requirements which cause the entire structure of a vehicle to be revised to insure that structure is strong enough to protect against head and neck injuries- thus improvements in other structural components are needed to reduce injury severity to the crash test occupants. Changes to crash means you reinforce what you have. Changes to rollover means a redesign. You state the 1995 and 1996 production as reduced by 50% from year to year. According to GM records total Camaro production for 1995 was 98,938 and in 1996 75,336. Just where are you getting 50% from that? |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
My understanding was the reason the Camaro got killed in 2002 was simply to get out of the Union contract in Canada.
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
Numbers for both 1995 and 1996 listed at that web site are incorrect. Industry trade Journals did report total assembly output with a higher number in 1995 as 122,844 which was classified as "units" (Ste Therese also made firebirds) and the web site you posted above has another completely different set of production numbers which I have no idea where they got for both 1995 and 1996. Could be a combination of model year vs calander year and industry unit info mixed in.
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
Give me a break. GM has made Shiite for the last 20 years, and you want to compare the latest and greatest GM vehicle made to Japanese vehicles that have had excellent quality for over 30 years.
I love America, more than most, but you have to admit the American cars since about 1974 to 2005 have sucked. My wife has a 2000 Grand Prix that is the biggest POS ever. Now, you can't expect to produce crap for 20+ years and then win some people over in two or three years. GM and Chrysler need to go bankrupt, renegotiate the union contracts and make the best quality cars in the world, again. Then, maybe they will come back and be profitable. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block?
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block? [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure Obama will let us know shortly. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
My understanding was the reason the Camaro got killed in 2002 was simply to get out of the Union contract in Canada. [/ QUOTE ] That's what I remember as well... CAW Now as far as quality... I had a 97 Toyota 4runner for 11 years and 200,000k miles... all of the interior parts were the same as when I bought it, everything worked inside and out with less than stellar maintenaince and being beat to death. My father has a 99 Suburban with half as many miles... the interior parts rattle, the doors are sagging, all kinds of things don't work and he maintains his vehicles to the Nth degree... just my experiences... For a HD truck... Powerstroke diesel... For an everyday vehicle HONDA or TOYOTA.... Muscle... another story I'm GM all the way! |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
In regards to the 97-02 Camaro/Firebird...bottom line is that if the car was making them any money they wouldn't have killed it. Whatever the reason it wasn't making them any money can be argued all day, but the fact remains that if it was profitable it would not have been killed. I worked part time at a Pontiac dealer in 98-02, and Trans Ams/Firebirds sat on the lot a LONG time before they were ever sold, and half the time they were just dealer traded to someone else. Sure they were cool, but no one actually bought any. Same fate will come of the new Camaro within a few years I'm afraid....if it even makes it that long.
I'm a die hard Chevy/GM guy, and have been all my life, but I'd buy a 6 speed Challenger R/T tomorrow if I had the coin. To say this car is not direct competition with the Camaro and Mustang is rediculous. Not only is it competition for unbiased consumers, but its also cool enough to convert lifelong Ford/Chevy guys to go Mopar. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
I read where GM is going to idle their plants for 9 weeks this summer. The employees will draw unemployment. The difference between unemployment and the employees regular paycheck will be made up by GM, What the hell?? No wonder this company is circling the drain. Once upon a time, GM was the largest corporation in the World!
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Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
Give me a break. GM has made Shiite for the last 20 years, and you want to compare the latest and greatest GM vehicle made to Japanese vehicles that have had excellent quality for over 30 years. I love America, more than most, but you have to admit the American cars since about 1974 to 2005 have sucked. [/ QUOTE ] Show me a 1979 Toyota or Honda still on the road. 30+ years of excellent quality? The Japanese didnt always have top notch cars. The first imports were obscenely slow, underpowered and rotted if sneezed on. What they did have was low cost and good milage. They steadily improved on it until they took over the market. But dont say that for 30 years they have been great, they were shitcans for a long time. I can go on for hours listing great cars built by Detroit from 1974 to 2005. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
I read where GM is going to idle their plants for 9 weeks this summer. The employees will draw unemployment. The difference between unemployment and the employees regular paycheck will be made up by GM, What the hell?? No wonder this company is circling the drain. Once upon a time, GM was the largest corporation in the World! [/ QUOTE ] Know, what THEY STILL ARE!! THEY STILL MAKE THE MOST VEHICLES IN THE WORLD TODAY!!! Toyota has temporarily idled many of their plants here in the US. Know what they did with the workforce? PAID THEM NOT TO WORK. Yes, when the San Antonio TX plant was idled for three months last year Toyota paid the workers not to work. In Japanese culture it is forbidden to lay off a permanent team member. You are employed for life, no matter how bad the market or economy gets. Imagine the UAW demamding that here in the states. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My understanding was the reason the Camaro got killed in 2002 was simply to get out of the Union contract in Canada. [/ QUOTE ] That's what I remember as well... CAW Now as far as quality... I had a 97 Toyota 4runner for 11 years and 200,000k miles... all of the interior parts were the same as when I bought it, everything worked inside and out with less than stellar maintenaince and being beat to death. My father has a 99 Suburban with half as many miles... the interior parts rattle, the doors are sagging, all kinds of things don't work and he maintains his vehicles to the Nth degree... just my experiences... For a HD truck... Powerstroke diesel... For an everyday vehicle HONDA or TOYOTA.... Muscle... another story I'm GM all the way! [/ QUOTE ] Read up on the Toyota Tacoma frame recall. Toyota bought back every Tacoma they made because the frames were falling out of them due to corrosion. Nice quality!!!!! My F150 has 100,000 miles and is 15 years old. And it looks like a brand new truck. Whats that mean? Nothing. As your examples mean, nothing. |
Re: Pontiac may be dead by monday..
There is such a fine line between success and failure in the car business. The domestic manufacture's problems did not come about because of one car line being discontinued or one group of people. This happened because of a bunch of bad decisions and missed opportunities over the years. All car makers are capable of making bad decisions. Mercedes Benz made cars that kept having tires blow out because their cars weighed too much in the 90's. I helped open a Lexus dealer that most of our sales came from loyal Cadillac customers because they were tired of all the problems they had with their cars including the 4.1 aluminum V8s, 5.7 diesels and 4,6,8 motors breaking. Just a few years ago Toyota rolled out their biggest Tundra ever with the 5.7 V8 as gas was heading to $5.00 a gallon (with a TRD supercharger you can get 500hp at the crank). It is a shame that Pontiac may go away but from what I have read GM is having their problems because they kept trying to sell trucks when the market should be buying cars. It is kind of ironic but Pontiac has only had cars in their line up for as long as I can remember.
Mark Sheppard |
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