Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Very interesting Tom, that is a ton of money to invest in a block but rare enough to justify it I guess. Nice HP rating also. I think I recall Arnie and maybe others wondering if anyone has ever blown some V heads yet, you know anything on that?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Man.. you guys are losing me.. I'm ONLY on page 9 of this thread..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] I just don't have time to keep up.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ed is it raining up there, it is here?

Something just struck me, aluminum flywheel in the article Joec posted. Hmmm......

I just dug up in Pete's Handbook looking to see if he mentioned anything on that. He didn't, but he did talk about a special torque converter PZ. Micky/Mike, I noticed a tranny sitting in the drivers seat on the Tin. Any chance the original converter is still there? By what Pete wrote it looks like one was never built, but might be worth a look in the ole parts pile.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

No converter was with it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I can understand that, the stock converter is the first thing in the trash can in my shop. That may not have made it past the first year of the cars existance.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

does this article contradict what wangers has been saying??? i have heard him say (in person) the only ra 5 tested was the blue/white car of mr schultz (hope i spelled it correct, if not sorry).

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

bill, in response to your post (page 13) i guess that the article posted by joec (page 16) does in fact prove that a judge did in fact leave the factory with a ra 5 engine in it. what happened to it?? good question. never say never ever.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

OMG......... This is one BAD BOY block

Tom you are a very lucky man!!!!!

Pic courtesy of Tom, there are more but I may not get them all up until I get home tonight and there are more sweeter than this. Can I say OMG again!!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

http://members.dandy.net/~whippet/69hardto.htm

Check out this link it discusses the Crystal Turquiose car. This is a killer GTO and is the only documented car known.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I have a supercharger intake that is supposed to be off the 69 GTO funny car run by Don Gay. Photos on the Performance Years board. Have not been able to document this. Anyone here got any photos of this car? Especially engine shots. Gay ran the RAV early on in the car and then switched to Hemi power later. Jim

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The article I posted is Super Stock July 1969.
It does not say if the orange Judge had the RA V installed at the factory or not. It does call it a prototype. The B&W pic may or may not be the same car and may or may not have been photographed at the factory but they did credit GM for the photos. I guess you have to read the article and see what you think. The article is not clear on those points as I am sure it didn't matter much to anyone back then. Ro now works for Hot Rod magazine. I tried to contact him by email a bunch of times on other articles he wrote as he is one of my favoite writers. I never got a reply but maybe someone can contact him or Super Stock mag and see if they have any additional info.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

More of Tom's very sweet motor for those interested

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

One more engine shot

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

And in the engine bay....

Tom, I thought this might be enough for the forum. What do you think? Any of the others in particular you would like me to post.

And Tom, I want to be your cabana boy when you go to the beach in this machine [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

just glad I was ABLE to presearve such a rare piece of pontiac history.I also just got done doing a COMPLETE alu D port pontiac engine.It was made in the late 50s,I found the engine at M/Ts in the early 60s and have been after it since then,I refound it again about 6 years ago,FINALLY got the guy to sell it to me and got it together.ANOTHER big undertaking as it was designed to run without sleeves like the Vega engines.The motor was on the dyno a couple weeks ago and will be going in a 63 Lemans convert.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

everyone needs to go and get a february 2004 (talk about sending issues early) high performance pontiac magazine. it has a very interesting article on a man who retired from gm that was the senior project engineer, advanced manufacturing engineering, advanced vehicle engineering 8th level (wow, what a title. imagine that on your name badge) anyway, he raced back in the early 60's and it goes on to tell about pontiac making 5 1965 lightweight gto's (one sent to royal and another to knafel pontiac othes went different places) and then john delorean okayed them to build him one in black which he still has and only has 4700 miles on it. his was not lettered up and was actually taken delivery thru royal pontiac and was not ment to be sold but royal did get him the title a year or so later (please read the story yourself for exact details). it then quotes him as saying that unfortunately he doesnt have the paperwork on it because back then it was just supposed to have been a race car and there was not supposed to be paperwork to cover "backroom handshake deals". WOW!!!! DOES THIS NOT JUST BACK UP ALL THE STORIES THAT BILL KNAFEL HAS TOLD??? i know it does not prove them without a shadow of a doubt, but it does give credibility to what he says. unless of course this man has lost his mind also like everyone seems to think bill knafel has. ps- to the engineer that wrote in and didnt remember knafel, they sure did keep you in the dark didnt they [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I never knew what a magazine says would be considered gospel.

Much like Knafel and Wangers, it seems there are certain things you want to be true without the facts to back them up. Knowledgable Pontiac people know when not to jump the gun and can sift through the BS to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. Which one are you? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

tjs44,
Last time I was in Reath's he was telling me someone traded him a jacket and a little money for two Tunnelport engines. And it looks like he hasn't taken that jacket off since. I was wondering, since you have been going to Reath's for 40 years, if you remember this 64 GTO. See pic. I bought it from the original owner's estate and all I know about it's history is that it was up on blocks since 1970 and the engine was balanced and blueprinted by Joe. The original owner's first name was Fern.
Thanks,
Jim

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Tom, you need to talk Steve B. out of a set of the M/T Hemi heads for one of your projects.
James

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i think you have your mind made up and are too closed minded to look at the facts and see what reality was back then. have you seen the article i was posting about?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
bill, in response to your post (page 13) i guess that the article posted by joec (page 16) does in fact prove that a judge did in fact leave the factory with a ra 5 engine in it. what happened to it?? good question. never say never ever.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

In response to ìmrmuscleî on the recent topic of a magazine article on a RAV in Super Stock Magazine with a photo of a Judge, hereís the scoop: [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

In 1969, Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, & Jim Wangers took several cars to Florida for testing (it was winter in Detroit). The base of operation for these cars was Colonial Pontiac and one of the dealer mechanics Jess Jesson also came out with the Royal guys with his í69 Judge. Royal brought the í69 Bobcat with a RAM AIR V, a í69 Judge with a RAM AIR IV (to compare against the RA V), Jim Wangersí white and gold 69 Grand Prix, and ROYALís NHRA legal 350 Firebird (which was taken to Pomona after the testing was done).

Because this was a ìP.R.î mission, a lot of testing was done on all cars. Wangers brought several signs to be used for photos on the various cars such as ìCars Magazineî, ìSuper Stockî, & ìPopular Hot Roddingî. These signs were used for various shots, as what was called ìfile footageî. For example, if a car was needed for ìCarsî Magazine with the RAM AIR V, photos would be available for that particular magazine to be used in conjunction with a Ram Air V article if the need ever arose.

The Super Stock article used such a ìfile footageî shot. I have many actual photos from that test session of the cars, with and without various signs. According to Milt, Dave, and Jim, the photo of the í69 Judge with Ram Air V signs in the Super Stock article is one of the mock-up ìfile footageî shots. To back up their statements, I have several different actual photos of this Judge with the same signs and background from the Florida test session. These shots were obviously done in Florida rather than Detroit. Also, if you look at the photo credit in the article, it reads ìphotos by GM Photographicî, not ìSuper Stockî. The motor photos were also ìfile photosî.

As a further point of reference, I even have photos of the 350 Firebird with RA V signs on it and no, it didnít have one in it at that time either! The one motor shot in the article (actually the í69 Firebird) was taken after the test session. I have the exact same original photo in my í69 ìRoyal Firebirdî file (see attachment). The car was taken to Dougís Headers on the way to Pomona, RA V heads installed so Dougís could use the Firebird as a ìmock-up" for F-body headers, then the 350 heads were re-installed. The ET times and data I believe to be taken from the Bobcatís records. There is nothing tricky or fancy about all this, it is how things were done back then by the P.R. people.

Now, back to the original TOPICÖThereís still no proof that Pontiac ever assembled a GTO with a RAM AIR V and sent it out to the retail public, so the final verdict is still the same as it was 340 posts ago! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

whats the problem billyboy, afraid one of these two cars will overshadow your car? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

also billy, the way the story was, the cars were sent to knafel to race and probably were not intended to be sold, but like so many others they got sold. did you see the new high performance pontiac magazine. i guess you dont believe the article on the 65 light weight cars either. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Seems to me that one of you RAV guys need show positive proof that the cars came from the factory with the RAV. These magazine articles prove nothing. The author writes what he is told about the cars. They have no way to back up thier storys. It shouldn't be up to other people to prove that the cars didn't leave the factory with the RAV, it should be up to you to prove they did. As all muscle car and super car owners know, you have to have proper documentation to back up what you say you have. That is just my opinion and I could be wrong.
James
James

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think you have your mind made up and are too closed minded to look at the facts and see what reality was back then. have you seen the article i was posting about?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my mind is not made up. I just am smart enough to know never lend credence to a car magazine or any form of automotive literature.

I liken it to Jesus - when there's proof, I'll believe it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

FOR THE LAST TIME! NO FACTORY RA V! I BELIEVE MIKE'S TIN INDIAN WILL BE UP THERE WITH THE ROYAL CAR BECAUSE OF ITS RACE HISTORY AND PROOF OF RUNNING A RA V BACK IN THE DAY,BUT THAT SILVER JUDGE WILL NEVER,I MEAN NEVER BE WORTH WHAT THE ROYAL CAR IS!! FOR ALL WE KNOW THE "memo" ON THE BUILD SHEET COULD HAVE MENT THAT CAR CAME WITH A 3SPEED! ALL WE HAVE IS A PIC OF A CAR AND PICS OF AN ENGINE NOT IN A CAR. THAT CAR COULD HAVE BEEN FOUND AS A BODY AND SOMEBODY HAD A GREAT IDEA TO BUY A RA V,STAMP IN A CODE AND MAKE A MAGICAL LOST RA V CAR! NO RACE HISTORY OR DOCUMENTATION MEANS "NO RA V" PERIOD!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img] KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK ON PUTTING PEOPLE DOWN! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I can tell you this, I've been into Pontiac's for over
30 years, and own just about every GTO made. In 1969
a friend and I were sponsored by Gorton Tire and Speed
and race a 1969 Judge, I was a member of Royal Pontiac, which was later bought out by George Delorean and Called Leader Automotive, George is John Delorean's brother, incase you didn't know, George also at one time work for Pontiac, and had a lot of connections. He also built
the Ram Air 1V motor for the 69 Judge we Raced. The only Ram Air V's sold where to racing Pontiac sponsored dealerships.

There is NO WAY any 1970 GTO came or was order with a Ram Air V trust me if it was at all possible I would've had one. I did how ever get to see a 1970 Firebird race team Called "Steven Pontaic" at Conn Drag Way ( now closed ) these guys were running 10.80's with a Ram Air V motor, they were also sponsored by Pontaic.

Wanger's was just and add man, all though to listen to the crap and books that's out their now you would think he invented the GTO, NOT true. although he tired to take credit. By the way I still own a 1970 Ram Air 1V Judge, all original. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Gach...Welcome to the Site and thanks for the informative post. And please fill out your Profile.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ok figured out how to up date my profile.
Thanks Gach

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Just thought I would stir the bucket but in slightly different manner.

How many of you are aware that Motion Performance published a book called "Pontiac Performance Guide and Catalog"? It has a TP article in it. It has Pix of the car of the blue/white'69 GTO even though it is black & white.

I also have the Cars, SS&DI as well as another article. All are '69 and is only mention of the hope they would be put in factory cars.

This is almost as much fun/informative as the discussions that used to go on about '71 T-37, 455HO cars that happened years ago. Able to prove those though.

I like others would like to see proof that they came from the factory with the RA V engine. Wouldn't it be great.

By the way as far as engine transplants go, Pontiac guys should never forget Myrtle Motors. They transplanted 428's in FB and GTO cars. Wonder if anyone has one of these?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
also billy, the way the story was, the cars were sent to knafel to race and probably were not intended to be sold, but like so many others they got sold. did you see the new high performance pontiac magazine. i guess you dont believe the article on the 65 light weight cars either. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY! (AND MONDAY TOO!) </font>

<font color="blue"> See Mr ìGrumpyî Muscle take on the rest of the field.

Will his smokey burnout put the rest of the field on the trailer? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Seeing how often he misses gears [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img], I doubt it!</font>


In regards to recent continuous negative postings on the RAM AIR V subject in this forumÖGET A LIFE KID! You constantly badger and belittle other people and their statements on this site, even in the face of indisputable evidence. I am sure that the founders of this site are true car enthusiasts that never wished for this to happen. It only takes one or two problem people such as this person to take a nice site like this and make it bad for everyone. I am somewhat ashamed that a Pontiac person would conduct themselves in this manner on a site that is predominately Chevy oriented. I have never made any negative statements toward this individual, yet since I do not share HIS views; he constantly makes rude and sarcastic statements towards myself and anyone else who holds similar views. These forums should be entertaining &amp; informative. I can get this kind of excitement getting a ROOT CANAL! There is no logic in providing documented information and original 35 yr. old photos just to have someone who does not have a clue distort reality to fit his own.

Well, I think Iím going see if the Camaro guys have anything cool to say under a different topic! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

On a lighter noteÖposting on this site, my wife got "5 stars", and all I got was a headache! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

BTW ìmrmuscleî~ I know all about Vanís 1965 GTO. He lives right here in the Detroit areaÖand I have a ìfileî on it too! His is the car in the recent magazine that you are talking about (which I have already had for about three weeks). This STILL does not have anything to do with FACTORY RA Vís! GTO DONís got it right! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Billy Bob

I think something is wrong with your camera, the pic is all messed up like it's been torn in half.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

James

That sounds ok. With the race car back door no paper work handshake deal in consideration.... do you have any suggestions how these men can find the proof?

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

billyboy, you and gtodon have got some anger issues. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] ever tried anger management courses???? answer me a question, if vans car is real and what he said about backdoor handshake deals, then why could mr kafel not have done the same thing? again, you are so strong willed against the attempt to get these two cars proven, it just seems like you have something to lose if they are. you also, keep attacking the value of the silver judge. why? do you know the owner of it? if so do you have something against him? finally the value has nothing to do with this topic. calm down before you have a stroke. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mr Muscle.. I think alot of People here are leaning the same way as Billy in regards to your comments. I don't mind differences of opinion here and have learned more about RAV than I ever wanted to know but this has degraded to 12 year old type Name calling. Please tone down your arguements or take them elsewhere.
All of you thinking about commenting on this site please keep it Civil. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

As you can see im brand new to this board. I heard about this discussion from another forum and decided to check it out.
First I would like to say that this is a very informative thread and im enjoying reading it!

Everybody is trying to prove or disprove that a RAV car was made at the factory and delivered to a Pontiac dealership right?
In my opinion the posts by Jim Matteson, Billy and GTODON contain the most info regarding that a RAV was never made by the factory. It seems the other guys are bassing most of their argument on hearsay from an old dragracer. (no offense intended to Mr. Knaffel)

I still feel that the burden of proof is on the people that believe in a factory RAV car and they havent shown much to prove thier case.

Thanks
My 2 cents

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mike

I think it's been established that these cars weren't regular production, more than likely back door race cars or favors. With whatever proof there may or may not still be at GM; it is either concealed as confidentail, or long lost.

Do you have any suggestions where or how to come up with said proof? It's not an easy task. Every single contact I have at GM is a dead end, with the exception of one GM employee still putting forth effort. I'm losing hope in that. There are two things left in the works outside GM, which have a 50/50 chance. One, there may be some paperwork still in the vehicle with notes. The second is weeks away, and so far out of my realm I'm not going to comment on it.

I would love some suggestions for other approaches.

Even though there is no proof available yet, it is possible it occured. I think it would be an awesome thing to set the record straight for historical purposes.

Please help.

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Steve
I agree that it would be awesome to prove that a RAV was factory installed in a Pontiac and I think its great that people are trying.
I wish I could offer you a suggestion as to how to prove it, but I cant.
If it was my car I would restore it with a RAV in it and just be happy knowing that its an awesome car with a great history.

Mike

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Other avenues to check would be shipper records and shipper insurance records. I would guess same company that shipped the new cars "could" have shipped a "scrapped" prototype car to a dealer. I agree that documentation is needed.
This has been a good post as I have enjoyed it and learned some interesting Pontiac history.
It has been a fairly clean post as at least no one's sexual orientation has been called into question as of yet. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Less personal attacks - more car facts [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
at least no one's sexual orientation has been called into question as of yet

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a little worried about the Mrs. HvyChev thing though... Do we have "Francis Queen of the Day 2 Chevelles"? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]