Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

I got the scoring sheets from Steve Shauger:

Looks like we came "this close" to getting the ultimate award of "Time Capsule". You have to get a score higher than 95% in each of the categories to achieve that. As a result, the car was awarded Legend status as it passed the minimum 85% in each category.


We missed it by a few points in the engine compartment category for the following items as far as I can figure:

1) Reproduction battery: we got zero points out of 30 possible points.

2) We got zero out of a possible 15 points for the starter. The starter was the correct part number 1108436 for a Super Duty, but it original stamping date was February 1, 1971 - deemed two years too early for the car.

3) The alternator and power steering belts were not the originals. So we only got 7.5 out of 15 possible points.

4) In the "distributor, wires and plugs" section we got 16 out of a possible 20 points there. Not the assembly line spark plugs maybe? (the sheet doesn't specify what the deduction is for)


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...core_sheet.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Great story!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

You learn something new everyday. I crawled around the car and discovered that I had two of the three original belts on the car, and not just one.

So what I need is the 80 amp alternator belt if anyone can assist with finding the correct part number.

Here are the photos of the original AC belt and the original power steering belt.

478012 is the A/C belt with a WH and V2K code
483133 is the PS belt with a N9 and V2 code

and the aftermarket alternator belt just for length info (15515 -1193 12)

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...D/IMG_2793.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...D/IMG_2788.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...D/IMG_2790.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

I have been scratching my head over my starter which is an SD455 1108436 starter but has a 1B11 date on it (Feb 1971). It appears it has never been touched and no one in the ownership chain ever replaced it. I was told by the judges that it is too early to be a factory installed starter, which is why they gave me zero points for the starter. At the time of the show I had no idea the starter was that far beofre the car otherwise I would have researched the issue beforehand.

(It is interesting to note though, that all the 73 SD455 engines were cast in 1972 which was how the engineers got around the bosses trying to cancel the entire SD455 program once they found out about it - but they found out too late that all the engines had already been built and instead of scrapping the program, they decided to save money and just let the cars be built)


Well, I just had my buddy down the street (just 5 miles away) check his starter. He owns a survivor, original paint, Brewster Green SD455 Trans Am that he has owned for several decades and bought from the original owner. His car was built/shipped 20 days before mine 6/29/73 versus 7/19/73

and the result?

SAME PART NUMBER, SAME EXACT DATE CODE!

My starter:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-img_2256a.jpg


His starter:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...25_130641a.jpg


I am now reaching out to other SD455 owners about their starter dates. Stay tuned!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

1971 V8 - 455 H.O. 1108436

Possible they used 71 455 HO starters?

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Yes, the 1108436 was the high torque application used in the 455HO and the SD455. It may very well be that they had a stockpile of them made in a certain batch and then just used them up as time went on.

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

I sent my starter research to Steve (Paceme) and they checked their records on the Charlie's 1700 mile SD they judged back in 2011...wait for the drum roll...SAME PART NUMBER, SAME DATE! So he is recalculating the score. Stay tuned for further episodes. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Here is that car: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...391#Post439391

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

And now my search starts for the correct 1973 Delco X C89 battery in case anyone has one in the corner of their garage. It doesn't have to work to get partial points. This car had the $26 optional maintenance free battery better known as the Delco Freedom battery. I believe it looks like this:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...8-s_l500_3.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...9-s_l500_5.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

I believe the early style was called the Delco Freedom and the later 1970's was the Delco Freedom II. They both had the white case and blue top. Same cases, just a slight alteration in the stickers they placed on top.

This guy cloned his own modern batteries into replicas of the originals for the later 1970's Trans Ams

http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=42751.0

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...om_battery.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

That's pretty clever!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

And another vote for the 1B11 date code on survivor car SD455 starters. This one is from the 11,000 mile, red, four speed that was at MCACN a year or two ago. It was the one with the flames painted on it in the for sale area. (The current owner successfully hand-sanded off the flames and brought it back the its orignal paint.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...ed_starter.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

&quot;The current owner successfully hand-sanded off the flames and brought it back the its orignal paint.&quot;

That must have been an exercise in patience and restraint!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

and $$$ in labor costs. He had a professional do it.

Here's the before and after

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-53316-_57.jpg

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...icks_sd455.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

After more research and going directly to the source (Enrico) who remembered exactly what battery was in the car when it was delivered (would you expect anything less from him? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] ).

This is what I am now searching for. It would probably be easier to find that '65 Z16 convertible before I find one of these old batteries, but here goes:

I am looking for an original (NOS, used, dead or alive) Delco X Energizer Maintenance Free battery. These were the optional maintenance free battery that were offered in Pontiacs from 1971 to 1975. In 1976 they were replaced by the red, white, and blue Delco Freedom Battery.

No one reproduces this battery as it is just too obscure. Here's a couple photos combined from a 1971 and a 1975 brochure:


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...5_brochure.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Great detective work on the starter build date!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Thanks. It has really opened up quite a few eyes in the Performance Years SD455 subsection. The guys had no idea this anomolay existed and now they are discovering more and more of these starters on known survivor cars.

The interesting thing is that the SD455 engines were cast and assembled in late 1972 and sat in storage until being installed in June 1973. Looks like the starters they used were sitting around even longer than the engines, or that they at least made a whole bunch of the high torque 1108436 starters that week and just kept them for the upcoming SD455 project.

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Look what I just got! An early Christmas present from fellow member 69JL8 who collects old Delco stuff. My wife bought it for me for Christmas, (though she doesn't know it yet). It's an original Delco Freedom II display model (no internal plates).

While it is not year correct for the SD it would be for Gramma's '75. I have seen some of the factory stock appearing racers remove the bottoms and install a motorcycle-sized AGM battery inside and run them as a &quot;decoy&quot; battery.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...D/IMG_2815.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...D/IMG_2813.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...D/IMG_2812.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

sweeeeet!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

The other interesting thing about the (formerly) flame painted car (VIN 142XXX) is that it was built a few days away from mine (141XXX) and the VINs are within several hundred units of each other having been shipped in mid July 1973.

When my Formula was being examined at MCACN the judges indicated that the exhaust was very odd as there were no resonators and no embossed markings/ribbing/part numbers on the mufflers, like the 1,700 mile car (VIN 144XXX) which shipped two weeks after the flamed car and my car left the factory. There was a lot of head-scratching with that since the exhaust did not appear to have ever seen a bolt turned on it, but also did not resemble the traditional exhaust and resonator/muffler system that was supposed to be on the car.

Well, it turns out that the flame car has the exact same no-resonator exhaust and generic looking muffler on its 11,000 mile factory installed system as my car. So it appears that there were different suppliers and batches of exhaust systems for these cars installed whenever they arrived at the assembly line.

Flame car's exhaust:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...1-img_3987.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Those judges really don't seem to know as much as they should, starters, exhaust. You owners are the ones in the know! Great attention to detail and wonderful cars!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

It's an amazingly difficult job they have to do. I don't envy them their task. So an &quot;appeals&quot; process is a quite logical method of addressing anomalistic parts/conditions.

These cars were so haphazardly built as Pontiac tried to get them out the door with the both the EPA and Pontiac brass trying to kill the project the entire time due to the political correctness of the new fuel economy era. As for the starters - even the guys in the Super Duty section over at the Performance Years site who have these cars had no idea about this bizarre dated starter anomaly until we all started crawling under our cars and comparing notes. They were just as amazed as I was.

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's an amazingly difficult job they have to do. I don't envy them their task. So an &quot;appeals&quot; process is a quite logical method of addressing anomalistic parts/conditions.

These cars were so haphazardly built as Pontiac tried to get them out the door with the both the EPA and Pontiac brass trying to kill the project the entire time due to the political correctness of the new fuel economy era. As for the starters - even the guys in the Super Duty section over at the Performance Years site who have these cars had no idea about this bizarre dated starter anomaly until we all started crawling under our cars and comparing notes. They were just as amazed as I was. </div></div>

Pretty important bit of info - hope Rocky Rotella has time to incorporate it into his 1970-81 book, giving you a credit. I love that red car from Maine, so much lust

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Not sure how I missed this thread but love the original owners got to see the car and enjoy the MCACN. Cant beat that type of reunion.. Very cool...

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Glad you stopped by!

Yes, the reunion of Enrico and Lenora with their baby was the real reason I brought it out to MCACN. You can't put a price on something like that. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

This was a photo of the moment when Lenora first saw the car: she stopped in her tracks and started getting all teary eyed. Rick was looking at me wondering why his wife stopped and then he turned his head and his jaw dropped. He then told Lenora to get moving so they could see the car up close.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...5-dscn4253.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

She was suddenly in her 20s again.

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

They were the real Class of '66 - They were married in 1966. This was their 50th anniversary trip. Very cool!

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Found another survivor car with that crazy 1971 dated starter. Were are up to five now. This one is from the white/red T/A that a member here recently purchased.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...le_73_auto.png

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Today's 1108436 1B11 Starter Update:

White/red T/A: 137XXX (mid June ship)
FrankG's auto: 139XXX (late June ship)
Flamed 4-speed: 141XXX vin (unknown ship date - I don't have the PHS)
My SD auto: 142XXX vin (mid July ship)
1,700 mile auto: 144XXX vin (late July ship)

So far, this time span/VIN span covers the majority of the shipping time frames of the 1973 SD455. Quite interesting indeed.

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

How many points are the judges going to give back?

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Currently waiting on the verdict - it goes through a review process that takes a while. They deducted all the points (16.7) as if I had a generic aftermarket starter and gave me a zero on that component.

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

New starter tally as of yesterday from another survivor car on PY site. So far we have not found anything other than this single 1B11 date, 1108436 starter on every survivor car that has been checked.

Scott's 10,000 mile White/red auto T/A: VIN 137XXX (mid June ship date)
FrankG's 42,000 mile green/white auto T/A: VIN 139XXX (late June ship date)
Flamed 10,000 miles red/white 4-speed T/A: VIN 141XXX (early July ship date)
My 19,000 mile white/tan auto Formula: VIN 142XXX (mid July ship date)
Brother's 1,700 mile red/white auto T/A: VIN 144XXX (late July ship date)
PureSD's 31,000 mile Red/auto T/A: VIN 145XXX (early August ship date)

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Hey Steve, we think we have the original belt you need for your car .......... Its yours for free ......... give me a call and we will get it shipped out to you, its perfect [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Awesome! I will call asap! PM me the number just in case I can't find it.

The part number I am searching for is 483781. That is the 80 amp alternator belt. Part #17 in the cahrt in the lower right of this assembly manual page:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...3_belts_1a.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Dang Steve! that belt routing on Pontiac's is intense! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Thankfully they made the diagrams for future generation to benefit from! For some reason they are showing an available air pump pulley on the top of each engine. I guess it is to show all possible variations in one diagram. I've never seen on on an actual Pontiac (other than when they had the Chevy 307 as the base engine).

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Today's 1108436 1B11 dated, 1973 SD455 starter update after PY member Aluminum Chief added his car:

New tally is:

Scott's 10,000 mile White/red auto T/A: VIN 137XXX (mid June ship date)
FrankG's 42,000 mile green/white auto T/A: VIN 139XXX (late June ship date)
Flamed 10,000 miles red/white 4-speed T/A: VIN 141XXX (early July ship date)
My 19,000 mile white/tan auto Formula: VIN 142XXX (mid July ship date)
Alum Chief's 35,000 mile auto T/A: VIN 143xxx (mid July ship date)
Brother's 1,700 mile red/white auto T/A: VIN 144XXX (late July ship date)
PureSD's 31,000 mile Red/auto T/A: VIN 145XXX (early August ship date)

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

The updated score sheet is now official!

Enrico and Lenora's car was upgraded to the Vintage Time Capsule award after the starter date code evidence was examined and accepted as the new norm. You have to get a minimum of 95% is all five benchmark categories to achieve this certification level.

The final score was 2923.74 out of a possible 3007.67 for a scaled score of 97.54%.

We got ten extra bonus points for having the original set of keys with the knockouts still intact. (Though I think they should add a new bonus point category for having the original owners intact at the judging!) [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

The biggest deduction we still have, that is pretty much impossible to overcome, is the lack of the original C89 maintenance-free battery. We lost 33 points for that. Other deductions were for the one replacement '73 Firestone 500 tire (for the one that exploded in 1983) with a different 1973 date code than the others, and the new old stock distributor cap I had to find for the one that the museum caretaker threw out during the unecessary 1980's tune-up.


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...ated_score.jpg

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

Well done Steve. Big Congrats!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: The New, Newer Project Part Tres...
 

I just got my March, 2017 Hemmings Muscle Machines. It has the 2016 MCACN coverage. There's a nice shout out to Enrico and Lenora in there as well as a photo of their car.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...s_mcacn_16.jpg