Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This post is getting like a Train wreck. Please keep it Civil or we will have to take steps and I'm sure we would all rather keep watching the Train wreck..

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

NO, BUT I'LL TAKE 2 HAPPY MEALS FOR MY 2 NEW STEPCHILDREN. AND DONT FORGET THE TOY,THEY BOTH COULD USE ONE! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] PS; DONT WORRY,SOMEDAY YOULL HAVE A COOL GTO. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don

I consider myself a savoy computer person, it took me two or three post before I got the hang of the basic tools and workings in here. Not to mention I was so absorbed in putting up my voice, the tool bar was the last thing I was worried about. Now unless this Billybob is a seasoned veteran in your forum and just created a new ID just for the disscussion, I'm a little confused how he got so good so fast.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Steve, since Bill is already asleep, let me enlighten you... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

First of all, believe it or not, that was Bill's very FIRST post on the internet EVER!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] If you don't believe me, do a search for his car. You will not find much because he has never discussed his car on the internet before today. He received a phone call from someone in the Pontiac community about this topic on here, or he would have never known about it. He does not belong to any forums, nor has he ever under any other name!

As far as how he got "so good, so fast"; I'll explain that... I helped him [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] Simple as that! I am a member of another forum on the computer (where, I have to admit, the guys are much nicer than what I have witnessed here so far [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]), so I was familar with how it works.

If you are waiting for some kind of response from him, you might as well give up as he has no intention of continuing this argument with you. He is not planning to call you, e-mail you or otherwise contact you! He has nothing more to say to you [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Oh, and one more thing Stevie...his name is BillyBobcat NOT "Billybob" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

You have got to be $hittin me.......

I am left no choice but to bring out the only voice of reason that I know to end all this ......

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Hi Guys!

Could we please get back to talking about supercars before my husband decides to bring home a Pontiac?

He told me to tell all of you that you have now exceeded the post count of my favorite thread about the Jack Douglass Yenko's. (yes I am serious I actually read that whole thread! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
(yes I am serious I actually read that whole thread! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]

So did I!!!

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'm sorry Rita and Billybob, but I just don't buy it. Your writing style very much resembles some one else in the forum that has about the same attitude. And since I don't have access to the IP log of this forum, I can only work off my deductions.

I was never arguing with either of you, either of the ID's that is. My point with Don and my web page was not so he could go be impressed, it was to show I'm a real person and not hiding behind a fake ID.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

------At this point the one thing I can see is that there are two people who just dont know how to be gracious here.Both of them are new to this board.I think of myself as new to the board,although I have a few more posts,and yet would never consider going off like either one of these posters even if someone on here managed to make me angry.I have a feeling when this post winds down that neither one of these new fellas will return.In thier minds they have done thier job.They probably have been shunned one way or another from other boards and,conveniently,have found this one to fill in for a couple of days.
------It seems that there has been a good byproduct of all thier posts as a couple of other pretty cool people have been persuaded to join in.I hope they stick around and dont think that things are always this contentious here.No offense to any of the above mentioned,but Im almost posative that you two have nothing left to say that you havent already said,so to be brief and use your exact wording,see ya!.............Bill S

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mr & Mrs BillyBobcat, please don't take the tone of some of the posters in this thread as typical of the membership of the sYc. We disagree often, but, at the end of the day, we usually shake hands, and, respect each other's opinions.

Your car is one that represents the true definition of a "Supercar" in my opinion. Some of us around here value hi po dealer converted cars equal or higher than factory built cars. Please wait for the smoke to clear, and come back to visit. Maybe we can convince the administrators to add a forum for NON Chevy GM supercars. I think it would provide a great place to discuss things like the GTOs, 442s, and Stage I Buicks, etc. What do you think guys [and gals]?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

You know I heard Jack Douglass sold a few Yenko GTO's too....could just be urban legend though.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

There's no reason this should ever turn into personal attacks. Someone was looking for help in trying to document a possible RA V GTO. He was looking for possible connections on who to talk to. Opinions are always welcome, but they are just opinions. We now have several people with documentation on GTO's with "memo" and "spec equip" on them and it would be great for the hobby if these people could get together to compare information to help shed some light on what these special notations mean. Let's get back to the research and stop attacking everyone involved. And since football starts soon, get your wings and [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] and relax. Go Giants!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we can convince the administrators to add a forum for NON Chevy GM supercars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Maybe you should send something down here to try and persuade me next spring when the tracks open up again! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] I'm not easily swayed, so it might take a couple weeks worth of test 'n' tunes to make a ruling...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

O.K. Rob, if slicks are allowed, I'll find something for SCR7.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Did you tell the guy that you were buying his car and then when he emailed you wanting to know where the check was, you could tell him that you sent it to the address of the house in the picture.....
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Hi everyone. I received a call about this debate and thought I could give some information.

In 1961, I graduated from GMI and went to work for the R&D dept. of PMD. In 1963, I was a single 25 year old car nut with a great job and bought the best car I could. It was a 421 SD Catalina HT and yes I did drive it on the street once in a while. I still have the car, but in 64 I had to replace the aluminum ex. manifolds with steel and I also replaced the fenders with steel. I also own a 68 RAII GTO and a 70 RaIV T/A. No I did not buy these new.

Enough about my cars, throughout the 60s I worked in both the design and testing in numerous engine programs. I did work with the Ram Air V program. So a few points, at the time we did not call it the RAV. It was an exercise to build the best Pontiac engine period. To the upper management, It was a complete failure. The 303 design had a HP and Torque curve that was completely wrong for the Trans Am circuit. Remember this was for the racing circuit not the car. The 366 engine was a mess and the 400 did not perform anywhere near what we thought it could do. We looked at everything from Cubic inch to multiple fuel induction systems. I never heard until reading it years later the RAVI RAVII RAVIII ect. At the time, I pushed to remove the downward exhaust ports but the design parameters called for it to remain somewhat Pontiac in outward appearance.

As far as engineering having this secret back room, It was an R&D dept with the concept being anything goes. Yes we do some crazy stuff but remember this was a job with the idea being future marketable merchandise. To the best of my recollection we never brought a car from the assembly line into R&D to install a motor to be sold to the general public. We had better things to do and we might have had to listen to the UAW.

Bill Knafel I always knew of his cars and his dealership. This was only because I was and still is a huge Pontiac person. I do not remember his dealership involved in any official component testing. I cannot think of a reason we would. We had everything at our disposal and numerous close dealers if need be. I do not know if he ever received R&D components.

If memory serves me right, the only dealer I visited in that area over the RAV program was a dealership named Ray Faros. I could be off on the spelling? I remember they were having a problem with a crate motor they installed.

Well I could go on but thanks for letting me ramble.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

For the record... Jim M took time out of his Sunday to call me and address my concerns. My apologies to Jim M or anyone that thought I was over line with him. Jim M does appear to be concerned with this subject, and I believe he will do what he can to help Mike and Gary indentify the oddities surrounding the two cars.

As I stated before, I DO appreciate what GM has done by allowing Jim M to have access these records. And I DO appreciate Jim M taking on the responsibilty.

We as Pontiac enthusiast are blessed to have PHS.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Obviously there is a lot of interest in this topic. I dont know why this isnt being discussed on one of the Pontiac boards but I thank the Chevrolet guys for bearing with us on this. This is about as good as it gets 33 years after the fact.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Amen. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Now I've just popped some Ritalin, so why don't we organize and tally up the info, shall we?

1) There are no documented RAV GTOs
2) As BobcatBob said, if there were, the burdon of proof would be on the believers.
3) Would you believe a '68 Z/28 ragtop without paperwork? So why are some of you so staunch in your belief that there were RAV GTOs?
4) Wangers and Knafel both are legends in their own minds.
5) The memory some people have is not as good as it used to be.
6) JM and PHS right now are the definitive source for PMD history (and NOT someone's memory.)

Did I miss anything? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sometime us Chevy guys have to take a break from all the high horsepower Chevrolet engines and talk about Pontiac stuff with you guys for a little while just to catch our breath [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] !!! (just kidding all you passionate Poncho guys ! I like them too !)

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The option code for a black spoiler was WT7 and would be listed on the build sheet or PHS. They only made about 40 or so cars with a black wing and they all were white. The Polar white Judge in the Promo pic that gets sent out with the PHS stuff also has a formula wheel (code 464) as well as decor group options. I have a copy of the pic the decor group gives you the door edge guards (code 684) and the wheel lip mouldings (code 694) and if you look at the package tray you can see the rear window defogger option (code 541) as well as raised white letter tires (code PK5). All these codes show up on the PHS docs and sixties car except for the hood tach (code 491) has none of these options that are visual in the pic, it is highly unlikely that car is the promo car. A Judge did not come any of the options listed a customer had to order them or the dealer ordered when they were purchasing new inventory. Code 332 or RPO WT1 consisted of:
348:- L-74 400 4bbl Ram Air Engine
474-N98 Rally II wheels less trim rings
TPF_WT1 G70x14 BSW Fiberglass tires
T-handle Shifter-w/manual trans
Airfoil on rear decklid
Specific side stripes
The Judge and Ram Air Decals
Black Texture in the grille

Just passing on some facts. Now someone is going to post that Knafel Pontiac stealth ordered all options [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

hello, i'm a new member here merely to respond to this RAV discussion.
I reside in the suburbs of Houston TX. and know about a carousel red '69 Trans am that is equipped with a RAV engine.
A friend of mine who happens to own a complete RAV engine, noticed this car at a local body shop where it was in for a new coat of paint. Upon closer inspection he found that it had a the RAV engine in it.
He was lucky enough to meet with the owner and obtain information and history. It also was enough to spark the interest of Pete McCarthy and within a short time the car was a feature article in Pontiac Enthusiast magazine.
This particular vehicle was purchased by the current owner from Don Gay Pontiac in Dickinson Tx.
The car DID NOT come from the factory with the RAV but was installed at the Gay dealership. If memory serves me correct, I think that it was intended to be campained in sanctioned events by Roy Gay(Dons Brother) but it never happened as Roy died shortly there after.
The car was never intended for sale to the public but the current and only owner eventually offered enough money for it and the deal was done.
And the rest is history..........

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Speaking of RA V stuff, I just noticed this crossram that sold on Ebay for the RA V motor. It almost looks like the top is the same one for the 302 Chevy but you can see some differences. This must be a pretty rare piece. RA V Crossram

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

that X ram is a RA IV,I sold it and I believe it was one of 5 made,they also made and I have a RA V X ram.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

That looks like the regular intake port configuration, but and interesting find for sure. I was a little shocked at the price tag. Attached is the regular RAV intake. I'm not speaking as the expert here, but I think the difference in the 303 heads were the push rod guide tubs were cast in the head instead of pressed in tube. Plus, the combustion chamber was much smaller. I'm sure some one will be glad to correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

my 400 V are 78 ccs and machined,my 303 are 58 and unmachined,some of both heads had the foils,others had the tubes.My 400 have foils and my 303 have tubes.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Yeah I thought I remembered the unmachined part, but I didn't want to go all the out on the limb and get my *** ate out in here because I said something wrong again.

Have you ran the heads, or are you just collecting?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sorry, my bad on calling it a RA V crossram. It's still a super rare, cool piece though.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I have a 69 T/A with a 446ci ALU block RAV motor.I am building a 390CI stroker short deck 303 X ram V motor as we speak.The reason I sold the IV X ram is because I decided to do the V motor instead.I do collect some things but REALLY believe that if im NOT going to use something then get it out to a person that will!Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Tom

Pretty cool attitude you got there. You do your own wrenching?

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I do some as times allows,I have Reath Automotive in LongBeach do my assm. on the motors.I have used Joe for almost 40 years on and off.WHEN and IF I retire I will do all my own work,just dont have time now.
AGAIN,any time anyone is in the so cal area,my cars are avail to see and to test drive.NO need to have them and not been seen and driven.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Is there anything already published about this alu. block? I'd like to know more about it. Is there a pic of it you can post?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Since this seems to be a hot topic, I did a little research.

I remembered an article about a factory hot rod Judge but couldn't remember which mag. It took me 2 hrs but I found it.
test crew Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, Brian Ballish. Article gives preliminary info as; less then 1500 RA V will be built available in GTO and Firebird only, alu intake, Holley 800 el choke, deep grove pulleys, 3 1/2 in cast ex manifolds, steel flywheel, M22, hp rated at 380. Article has B&W pictures of a RA V in a car and here is what's interesting its says "photos by GM Photographic".
Are these pictures of a factory built RA V Judge?
What does this prove - nothing but looks like engineering had a test car which is no surprise. Raises questions though. Has this Judge been found? Was it marked "scrap" and given away? Is car in B&W photos same as test car? I don't know.
Article goes on to say test car is prototype rung out at Miami Dragway. Specs given wt 3640lbs, Doug Thorley headers, 4:88 gear, M21, Fenton Hustler wheels, 9" slicks, alu flywheel, heads were tweaked, ran 11.86 -116 mph. Milt had to launch it at 6500 rpm felt steel flywheel would provide lower ET said wanted to try Hyd cam. Writer Ro Gonegal said "If it was a Rat Hunter Pontiac wanted, thy've got it and more"
Good article - I wish Pontiac made at least 50 so it could have run in Super Stock.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

there were 5 blocks that got out of the factory,they were ALL rejects.I bought 2 of them,1 unmachined that I finnaly sold off as I could not get it done.The other was a huge undertaking as there was a casting void,7 perosity holes and a core shift that caused the lifter bores to blowout on one side when we bored them for bushings.I bet I have over $10000 in the block now.I do have pics but dont know how to post.As far as I know,it is the ONLY one running.There are 2 in AZ,Randy Williams has one and one that is in the east that was pictured in HPP a few years ago.I can email pics if someone can post.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Joe
Anyway you could scan that in an Adobe file so we can read it?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Joe,
Somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that a Ram IV judge and a Ram V engine were shipped to Florida, the engine installed, car tested, engine removed and shipped back to GM. Since the testing was done at a Florida drag strip I would guess the article was discussing that car. Why would they use a Florida dragway for testing? My guess is when they wanted to test the car/engine combo it was winter here in Detroit. Scan back through this thread to see who posted about the Florida testing.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Email it to me and I will be glad to post it. I think I may remember the HPP article.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Tom - sounds like a cool engine. Hope you can get it together.
Lets see ...a alu RA V in a Firebird..... it may run almost as good as a ZL1 Camaro [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
(just kidding but it is a Chevy site)
Mo the test car was in FL.
The B&W pictures look like pro photos like you see done by internal GM photographer so maybe the B&W photos were done at GM because it says "photos by GM photographic"
just providing some input I don't have an opinion on if one escaped the factory or not.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

it is in the car and running.It put out 555HP@6100 on the dyno,plenty to go to the market.Tom