Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Hi Steve,I noticed that you have started slacking it a bit working on the Formula,there must be at least three or four hours out of twenty four,that you are spending sleeping and not working on the car.What's up with that?
I was studying the pictures of the Formula back in 1993,and saw that the owner had already pulled the HO hood signs off the car,and the fender emblems off by then to hide the true identity of the car to on lookers.Also what blew me away,it still has the original 72 deluxe seats in it in 93,and I was told the interior was stolen in 1986,so it happened much later.
Also he took off the roof drip moldings,and then installed them back on much later,as they are on the car when the motor was being done.He still had the wheel well moldings on in 93,and they were all off the car sitting in the garage when I first went to see the car in July 2011,and by the time I bought it,they had disappeared out of the garage.Those were the same tires on the car also as when I bought it,so that is why I bought the new TA's with in two hours of owning the car.
Have a Merry Christmas,
Grant

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Hey Grant!

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I was out in the garage finishng up the prep for the start-up tomorrow. All that's left is to prime the oiling system one last time, put in the distributor and turn the key.

I'll update everyone tomorrow. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Reading through this thread I remembered a friend having a (I believe) 72 ram air Firebird. It was black with a white interior, 455-4 speed, and looked just like yours. It was bought new here, and a local couple used it for everyday transportation up until the late 70s. It had been painted once, so I don't know if black was the original color but I would believe so. By the time we got our hands on it, it was on its 5th or so motor, and was pretty rusted. Here's a picture of us flat-towing it to put yet another engine in (and the picture makes it look closed than the vehicles were to each other....

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...ePfirebird.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Hard to tell what year, 71, 72 or even a 73. It has a blacked out grill though the grills are supposed to be silver on a Formula. I think I can faintly see wide grill blocks that would be 73 grills. The 72 grills have a definite honeycomb with no horizontal bars. The 71 grills have a fine square block pattern.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...Pfirebird1.jpg

1971:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...uhRncG60_3.jpg

1972:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t.../SDC11676a.jpg

and 1973:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...LHd1I9lw_3.jpg

Also I notice it does not have a nose emblem on top of the beak which only the 70s' and 71 Formulas had. 72s and 73s did not have the emblem.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I tried to get the engine running yesterday but it turns out the Delco battery (which had a 1995 date on it) didn't want to play. It had 12.7 volts, but had no cold cranking amps remaining. This was even after I had it boosted with a charger and booster cables to my truck. And to think, the battery worked fine before I rebuilt the engine. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] Typical! It also didn't help that it was 40 degrees out.

Oil pump was primed for several minutes. Distributor is installed correctly. I was able to get the timing light working to get the timing adjusted properly while cranking for a second or two (with the wife behind the wheel). Oil pressure was immediately right up there at 60 psi. Spark plugs are sparking. It just doesn't seem to be enough voltage to ignite the fuel with the HEI. So it ended up flooding the plugs. I switched plugs and it did the same thing. I looked in the spark plug hole and could see the fuel pooling in the valve reliefs on top of the pistons. So I left the plugs out and let it &quot;air out&quot; overnight.

So I ordered a reproduction R89 800 CCA dry cell battery which should be here Wednesday.
http://restorationbattery.com/gmproducts.html

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/SDC12400.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Lookin GREAT Steve!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

It must be that new crank seal you put in and it creates more drag.

Looking good [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]


Jan

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard to tell what year, 71, 72 or even a 73.


Also I notice it does not have a nose emblem on top of the beak which only the 70s' and 71 Formulas had. 72s and 73s did not have the emblem.
</div></div>

You hit that one. I had gotten a ticket in that car (and had my license suspended for it) and I looked to see if I still had it (the description read &quot; Vehicle entering Rt6 allowing rear tires to make noise, and rear of vehicle to fishtail&quot;). It was a 73. Hard to believe that the rear of the car was so rotted out for being seven years old, but that's the Cape for ya.

Nice job BTW, Oh and better check the oil for gas contamination if you fouled two sets of plugs.....

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Hey MacGuyver, it's Wednesday already! Dju get that battery?!!!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Got the battery. Still no luck in getting it to start. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/mad.gif[/img]

Got oil pressure, got spark, got fuel, got valves moving and adjusted properly. Distributor is not 180 off. Swapped distributor parts from Grammas Firebird with no improvement.

Barely get a pop or two in the exhaust, no matter where the timing is set at.

Not happy at the moment.

Too damn cold to get an engine running.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I hooked up both a cannister coolant heater and the magnetic oil pan heater. The engine was at 180 degrees. Still no start.

I had my old time mechanic buddy come over and troubleshoot tonight. We backed off on the rocker arm adjustment, just in case they were too tight. No luck.

Things we learned:
1) Only getting 130 PSI on a compression test.
2) Engine cranks slow with the spark plugs in. It cranks really fast with the plugs removed.
3) No vacuum into the engine. You put your hands over the carb and there is no suction when you crank the engine over. In fact gas pops out of the top of the carb.
4) We pulled the carb and cranked the engine and there is still no suction into the engine.
5) The balancer timing mark matches TDC on cylinder #1.
6) The distributor is set correctly to TDC on cylinder # 1.
7) Intake manifold is sealed up tight with no gaps.
8) Cylinders 1,3,5 and 7 have carbon fouled plugs. 2,4,6 and 8 look much cleaner.
9) Full 12 volts to the HEI unit with the key in the run position. Around 9 volts when cranking due to starter load.
10) Pulled starter today and had it tested - OK.


Possibilities:
1) Timing chain installed incorrectly (even though I rechecked the marks on the crank and timing gear several times before sealing the timing cover.)
2) The Edelbrock (Cloyes) timing set had the indicator marks mis-stamped.
3) The Melling SP-7 Camshaft ground wrong.

Any other suggestions?

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....
Things we learned:
1) Only getting 130 PSI on a compression test.....

Possibilities:
1) Timing chain installed incorrectly (even though I rechecked the marks on the crank and timing gear several times before sealing the timing cover.)
2) The Edelbrock (Cloyes) timing set had the indicator marks mis-stamped.
3) The Melling SP-7 Camshaft ground wrong.

Any other suggestions? </div></div>

Did you install the timing set &quot;dot to dot&quot; or did you degree the cam in?

Is it hitting 130 PSI on all 8 holes?

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Are the timing marks dot to dot or from 12 to 12 on a Pontiac?

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Dot to dot (12 and 6) and 12 to 12 are the same, only 180 of rotation from each other. We tried swapping distributor 180 degrees with no improvement. I did not degree the cam in.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Dot to dot (crank at 12:00 cam at 6:00) puts #6 @ TDC ready to fire. Rotate the crank 1 turn puts the cam at 12:00 and puts #1 @ TDC ready to fire (cam rotates at 1/2 crank speed)

*edit* Steve posted while I was making the above post

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I would get the degree wheel out at this point to verify the cam timing.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Ive never degreed a cam. I imagine doing one in the car with the heads on would also be twice as hard.

Any degree-ologists nearby, here in Jersey who can lend a hand? Ill happily pay for the beer...after the degreeing is done.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

It's really not that hard. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

All you'll need to do is mount the degree wheel to the balancer, verify TDC, remove the rockers on #1 and make a set-up to mount a dial indicator on #1 intake pushrod.

Do you have a degree wheel and a dial indicator?

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Follow-up to the above post:

HERE are the easiest, clearest instructions I know of on how to degree a camshaft.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I ordered up a degree wheel kit. Should be here tomorrow.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Latest update:

I pulled the timing cover and after a few false starts thinking that the gear set was marked wrong. I discovered the problem.

Even though the marks lined up perfectly at 12 and 6 o'clock positions and 12 and 12 o'clock positions when rotated through the cycle, I noticed that when either position was set, and I slid the balancer back on, the TDC mark on the balancer was in the 7 o'clock position for either the #1 or #6 cylinder firing position.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...8c/timing3.jpg


And when I moved the balancer to the TDC position this is what the gears looked like:


http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...8c/timing1.jpg


I know what you're thinking: [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img] Nope, the balancer didn't spin on its hub.



I took me an hour of comparing old gears and new and then going back to my old trusty manual....

Turns out that I installed the lower sprocket when the crankshaft keyway was in the 10 o'clock position. That's about 4 hours too early. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...8c/timing4.jpg

The crank sprocket should be installed when the keyway is in the 2 o'clock position, other the cam is waaaaay out of time and the #1 piston is about an inch below TDC.

DOH!
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...pson2Thumb.gif

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...8c/timing5.jpg


Back to garage to put things back together....again.


Sometimes when things go together too easily - it means you must have done something wrong.

Hey, come to think of it, I believe the wife put that sprocket on. Yeah, That's gotta be it.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Way to stick with it. Lets hear that 'bird purrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Glad you figured it out Steve! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I figured that's where you'd find the problem. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Just to cover the obvious since you mentioned it was slow/difficult to turn over--were there any signs of mechanical binding? (i.e. bent pushrods/valves)

If you need any help with degreeing the cam, give me a shout.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Never any signs of binding or hitting. Thanks to the 8.4 to 1 pistons!

So now I have a cam degreeing set that my wife will be wrapping for a Christmas gift (for me).

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I knew you would figure it out, didn't doubt it for a minute.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Well, that makes one of us that was sure. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Eureka!

Got everything back together this morning after correcting the crank gear fiasco. I hooked up the oil pan heater and the coolant heater and got the block temp up to 180 degrees. I cleaned up a set of the fouled plugs and threw them back in. Set the distributor by eye and crossed my fingers.

I turned the key and the car instantly started. I then sat there for 15 minutes running the cam in at 1700 to 2000 rpm. Shut her off, and checked for leaks. Thankfully none were found, especially in the rear main seal area and the front of the pan where the timing cover had to be removed.

I then drained all the start up 10W30 oil and additives (Lucas Break-in additive, STP and all the red cam lube and moly paste), and checked the magnetic drain plug. Nothing whatsoever on the magnet. Very clean. I refilled it with 5 quarts of 5W30 and Lucas break-in additive. I then let it cool down to ambient temperature. Once it cooled off, The son and I went out for a ring-setting drive.

I did 10 sets of 30 to 50 mph second gear full throttle runs. After each run up the rpms I would let it pull itself down in gear, back to 30 mph. Then I drove a few miles more to my buddy's garage to give him the good news and went back home after the 11 mile round trip.

She runs nice! Once the weather clears up I will play with the timing so more, but she feels very strong right now and not a even hint of pinging.

Here's how she looks at the moment:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/S7007940.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/S7007945.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/S7007942.jpg

And here's how she sounds. Very smooth and quiet until you hit the throttle. (put your mouse on the photo and left click)


http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...h_S7007937.jpg


Now I have to put Gramma's car back together after borrowing the cap and wires for testing on the Formula. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I just checked my math and it looks like this engine pull and rebuild took 34 days start to finish, even with the 6 day delay with the crank pully mix-up. Gramma's Firebird took 35 days.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...ect#Post449019

It's a new, family engine rebuild record! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Nice! I LOVE the sound from the Formula Firebird exhaust!!! (Reminds me of my brothers first car a 1970 Castillian Bronze Formula 400 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] )

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

BTW, here is the contraption that I used to preheat the engine.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/SDC12440.jpg

I plumbed the inlet to the 1500 watt coolant heater into the lower heater hose outlet from the water pump. The outlet went to the temp sender on top of the intake, while the other part of the T is connected to the disconnected heater hose. This way the block water was heated up. I tested it with the infra red gun and it read 180 degrees at the intake. The heater core and the radiator water didnt get the heat since the water pump was not circulating the coolant.

I had one of these same coolant heaters plumbed into my diesel Suburban and it would get the fluid real toasty in the winter.

The square thingy is a magnetic oil pan heater. You just stick it to the bottom of the pan and it heats the oil up to 100 degrees or so.

All together the parts cost about $60. Well worth the expense.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

You are the man Steve. Sure would like to have someone like you on my payroll!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

LOL. I'll send you a resume. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, if anyone is interested in the old pistons and rods out of this engine here are the links.

They make great Christmas gifts!

Or Chanukah gifts - one for each night!

Call now operators are standing by!

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthrea..._For#Post509974

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...975#Post509975

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I scuffed and painted the top of the radiator support yesterday and then installed the ECS Automotive repro emissions sticker I had in my &quot;decal file&quot;.

ECS made their repro 1972 455HO sticker from my original that I peeled off of the 72 Trans Am a few years ago. It is definitely the most accurate one out there. They are happy to make new stickers from your originals if it is one that they don't have in their inventory. (They even gave me a couple free ones for loaning them my original). [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

http://www.ecsautomotive.com/product...co=g&amp;id=11

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/SDC12478.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/SDC12477.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Somewhere I have a photo of another Formula 455 in Vancouver. If I recall correctly, he was a mechanic at Carter Pontiac Buick in Burnaby. I'll hunt for it.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL. I'll send you a resume. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, if anyone is interested in the old pistons and rods out of this engine here are the links.

They make great Christmas gifts!

Or Chanukah gifts - one for each night!

Call now operators are standing by!

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthrea..._For#Post509974

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...975#Post509975 </div></div>

Both the rods and the pistons have been sold.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I have been tuning the carb and timing the past few days. I am currently on 74 jets, 43 primary rods and DA secondary rods. She runs very nicely and pulls well up the RPM range.

Does anyone have a spare pair of BE or BL secondary rods they can &quot;loan&quot; me? The magic setup recipe that I had in the T/A was 74 jet, 44 primary rods and BE secondary rods and that car pulled like crazy (same rear gears, same transmission).

I have around 110 miles on the motor now and I am a firm believer in breaking them in like you are going to drive them: hard. She starts at the first turn of the key and idles nicely. I have been doing a lot of my 8 mile test and tune trips over the past week or so when the weather permits.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Got the heat riser hoses installed for the Ram Air air cleaner. One of the PerformanceYears.com members, &quot;PB&quot; sent me the correct beveled 455HO plastic elbows and original clamps, as well as the heat stove base plate and 90 degree steel eblow. The corrugated hoses I got from Performance Years for $6 each.

This is sure one Rube-Goldberg contraption once all those hoses are hooked up. No wonder everyone who had one of these cars ripped them out and tossed them in the garbage. It takes two people to remove or install the air cleaner now.

I also discovered that if you don't have the correct &quot;thick&quot; 1/4&quot; carb to intake gasket, the air cleaner heat riser elbow on the drivers side will jam up against the valve cover and will hold up that side up, off the carb.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...ircleaner1.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...ircleaner2.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...ircleaner3.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

BTW, Here is a tip for the squeeling belt syndrome that Pontiacs have. These cars are very sensitive to belt thickness. If they are running multiple belts on the crank and water pump pulleys, the parallel running belts must all be of the same width or else they will scream at high RPMs.

The problem is due to the fact that they are trying to fight each other for traction while turning the same distance of water pump pulley at the same time. Because the thinner belt is sitting lower in the groove than the thicker belt, the thinner one is technically a longer belt by a few millemeters over the same distance of pulley groove.

Unfortunately, most manufacturers have gone to narrower belts for the old cars. I just bought two new belts for the Formula and had to search a while on rockauto.com for a matching set from Goodyear. Rockauto actually lists the widths for each belt, and they were cheap - around $10 total with shipping. The Goodyears were .44 width which is a little bit more than 14/32. The Gates and Delco belts were .4063 (13/32 width). Napa were the worst - they were around 12/32.

Here is the photo after the new same width belts were installed. As you can see, the inner, alternator belt only rides on about 3 inches of the water pump pully - just enough to create the scream if it is a different width. The power steering belt is what really operates the water pump pulley.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/Untitled.jpg

Compare that with this photo (courtesy of Steve Hoog) showing two different thickness belts on the water pump pully.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/altbelts.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I ran into the same problem with belts on a 69 427 Corvette with A/C, P/S, etc. I had to purchase repro belts to get it right.

BTW, NAPA is the same as Gates.

I love watching for updates. Keep them comming Steve!

Happy New Year!

Tim