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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regardless of how the stamped numbers got there, how do you rectify the problem? </div></div> Via a state issued replacement VIN plate that attaches to the firewall with the state assigning their specific VIN if the original/correct/born with VIN cannot be determined, and thus a new branded title being issued with this newly assigned VIN. Firewall must first be examined in this case to see if it were actually replaced and what numbers are there now. If it were not replaced, the VIN that is on it now would become the VIN listed on the state issued plate because that is the car's born with VIN and is known. That's why it is placed there. 616414 could never be listed on the state issued replacement VIN tag. Only THAT car's original, born with VIN or the state's assigned VIN could be listed on the state issued tag and placed on this car. Thus, there goes a SYC by the wayside. That 616414 VIN tag should not be on that car, firewall replacement or not. That VIN tag should not be placed on any other car body, even a Dynacorn or the like. That VIN tag should be in a case on the shelf, hanging on a wall, and looked at. Or sent to the Yenko VIN tag graveyard.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I agree Tom. It is an interesting issue. My earlier example consisting of transferring just the small piece(s) of sheet metal where the stamps are located would, in my opinion, not result in the second car (the one that received the small cut out) being the new legal car (particularly if the new car got a brand, spanking, new duplicate vin plate). It's also very interesting to go down the rabbit trail that vfitom introduced yesterday. If, in fact, two #616414's existed - and it could be proven that a crime was involved in one or the other acquisition/transaction, and, the crime actually precipitated the transaction - wouldn't/couldn't that transaction be nullified in PA? In this example, that may be one of the avenues toward the rectification that you questioned.
All really good, interesting stuff. I hope that this isn't boring a bunch of people. Heck - so far this exercise has only cost me $500.00 per page of this thread - I'm not bored! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Not boring me. I'm learning a lot.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Funny you mention the vin from one car to another based on a crime - that very scenario happened to another Yenko Camaro right here in SE Pennsylvania!
Long story, but true Yenko with the Yenko vin stamped in the f/wall trumped the other car that had 'no' vin on the f/wall - although it had the original Yenko's vin tag in the dash. The wrong car showed up on EBaY of all places, and was physically located just 30 minutes from the real Yenko - unreal. (As of now the wrong car has no vin plate on the dash, the State Police reopened the case and physically removed it about 2-3 years ago, the theft happened in the 80's!) Honestly, you can't make some of this crazy stuff up! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..........
Honestly, you can't make some of this crazy stuff up! </div></div> I think some people stay up late working on the next round of nutty!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif[/img] |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Here's another tid bit - many folks may not know that there is a mandate for all of the individual state DMVs to communicate with each other. I believe that the deadline in PA was this past Spring. Of course, many states are running behind. I personally wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of vin's that are duplicated in different states. That's gonna be a real dog's breakfast! It just points out the need for ownership documentation folks. You probably remember when POPs were considered rock solid documentation - now, even the experts get fooled. Block stamping - the same way. With the value of these cars, somebody's gonna figure out how to stamp cowls - perfectly. Never say never.
I gotta get back to work on this project - I may not check in for a while - out of country next week. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
"616414 could never be listed on the state issued replacement VIN tag. Only THAT car's original, born with VIN or the state's assigned VIN could be listed on the state issued tag and placed on this car. Thus, there goes a SYC by the wayside. That 616414 VIN tag should not be on that car, firewall replacement or not. That VIN tag should not be placed on any other car body, even a Dynacorn or the like. That VIN tag should be in a case on the shelf, hanging on a wall, and looked at. Or sent to the Yenko VIN tag graveyard."
I agree Tom. But, luckily, we're not even close to that final point yet. Look forward to the outcome of firewall pics and inspection. I am in a situation right now - I fished a 1969 Dodge Daytona out of a graveyard last weekend, car retains one hidden VIN, found its original motor too. Another dude cut the VIN tag and fender tags off it years ago. We are both at loggerheads over who owns the car. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] Different from this situation, but still in the VIN gray area. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's another tid bit - many folks may not know that there is a mandate for all of the individual state DMVs to communicate with each other. I believe that the deadline in PA was this past Spring. Of course, many states are running behind. I personally wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of vin's that are duplicated in different states. That's gonna be a real dog's breakfast! It just points out the need for ownership documentation folks. You probably remember when POPs were considered rock solid documentation - now, even the experts get fooled. Block stamping - the same way. With the value of these cars, somebody's gonna figure out how to stamp cowls - perfectly. Never say never.
I gotta get back to work on this project - I may not check in for a while - out of country next week. </div></div> Funny thing is, in my example above, the original Yenko went and got its State Police issued replacement vin plate from PA. Years later the fake Yenko showed up in PA (!, of all 50 states....) but with the real cars vin, do you think he got a title issued from PA with that original vin? Yep! When 1 state can't figure out that there are two cars after the same vin, in the same state - I'm not putting too much trust in the interstate validation effort. To think that a rebodied car showed up 30 miles away from the real one, and got titled, is a head scratcher! Trust me, I'm up late many a night - but its never over stuff like this! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's another tid bit - many folks may not know that there is a mandate for all of the individual state DMVs to communicate with each other. I believe that the deadline in PA was this past Spring. Of course, many states are running behind. I personally wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of vin's that are duplicated in different states. That's gonna be a real dog's breakfast! It just points out the need for ownership documentation folks. You probably remember when POPs were considered rock solid documentation - now, even the experts get fooled. Block stamping - the same way. With the value of these cars, somebody's gonna figure out how to stamp cowls - perfectly. Never say never.
I gotta get back to work on this project - I may not check in for a while - out of country next week. </div></div> I've mentioned this before, but a few years back I came up with a rough Hemi Super Bee body. Not only missing the dash vin and fender tag, the body stampings had been torched out as well. The previous owner claimed he had no paperwork, and was not interested enough to dig around. I sat on the car for about 6 months, but finally had no choice but to sell what pieces were usable and junk the rest. I know of a 71 429 CJ Mach 1 in similar circumstances (the orginal selling dealer is still in business and remembers the car well, but has no records to pull a vin off of), and I know of a Cortez 69 Camaro that I'm 99% sure was a COPO, but again, no numbers and no way to find them. I recall a massive brouhaha in the Mopar commmunity a few years back regarding an extraordinarily well faked 71 383 Cuda convertible pilot car. Until a friend of the original owner stepped forward with pictures documenting that the car was a plain jane 318, rather than a loaded 383, that car had everyone fooled. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
"happened to another Yenko Camaro right here in SE Pennsylvania!"
Amazing - plus the fact that this stuff happens right in your back yard! Maybe this area is cursed! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Seems there are/were quite a few Yenko's floating around this area... why can't I find one!!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I remember reading that the 1953 Corvette serial #003 got separated from it's original numbered frame. Someone put another body on that frame and now there are TWO legal 1953 Corvettes serial #003.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
It would be easy to duplicate titles using a state that does not title old cars. Alabama does not title cars older than 1974. If an Alabama registered car is sold out of state, all you get is a bill of sale and a copy of registration. When you apply for a title in another state, the only information that they have is the bill of sale info. As long as the vin tag on the dash matches the vin on the bill of sale and the Alabama reg. you get a title with that vin.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Reference post #435721 on 11/11, I never received any PM.............
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Tom - Just do what #435721 says and you'll get the answer(s). It's just a bunch of second hand bloviating designed to make people with no knowledge feel important.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I have a question regarding this issue, and that is if the cowl was replaced what does it matter other than the hidden vins? If the top of the dash was not replaced and the rest of the car is original, then replacing the cowl due to crash damage does not make this car a rebody. Does it? I had an SS396 Camaro that was hit hard down low on the drivers side firewall and cowl side many moons ago. To fix it I replaced the entire firewall and cowl cowl with one from a donor car as reproduction parts were not available, nor were nos GM pieces. I didn't care about numbers back then, so I would assume the hidden vins from the donor car were on the parts we used to fix my car. We split it under the base of the windshield at the dash and then along the floor seam at the toeboards. Unless you pulled the carpet and kick panels out you would never know it was replaced. Now I am wondering if that car ever resurfaces will people question its legitimacy as a real SS car....probably. Most might even think it is a rebody though it isn't since the dash vin was not removed and installed in another car.
Bergy I think you may be going down the right path, but it would be good money to have Jerry show up to do a full inspection before you start doing anything to the body of that car. Then while he is there have someone with a portable soda-blaster remove the paint from the firewall and cowl area. I wouldn't use a grinder as that may or may not mask any previous work done. Then at that time I would report Jerry's findings to the Camaro world. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Note to self - run from 616414 when it eventually comes up for sale. Going back to Van's COPO thread now.....
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Tracker, you state: "car retains one hidden VIN". Thus, If you have the original car with that original hidden vin, and you legally have the title with that listed VIN, YOU own that car.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vfitom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tracker, you state: "car retains one hidden VIN". Thus, If you have the original car with that original hidden vin, and you legally have the title with that listed VIN, YOU own that car. </div></div>
The rub is the title and the VIN plate reside with another individual who cut it out years ago. That aside, so, with your experience, you are saying a hidden VIN trumps an actual VIN plate on the dash in establishing the existence of "a car"? Cuz what I have is a pile of scrap metal with a matching engine block. What Bergy has is a whole car with VIN on the dash. You're saying - or at least intimating - is that because that VIN tag on the dash is removable it isn't as legitimate as a hidden VIN? (I'm just deducting out,here, from what you said in your post...allow me some leeway) So if Bergy had found this car with the hidden VINs on the cowl and behind the heater box in place BUT no VIN tag on the dash he'd be better off? Not challenging, just trying to learn. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vfitom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tracker, you state: "car retains one hidden VIN". Thus, If you have the original car with that original hidden vin, and you legally have the title with that listed VIN, YOU own that car. </div></div>
.....- is that because that VIN tag on the dash is removable it isn't as legitimate as a hidden VIN? (I'm just deducting out,here, from what you said in your post...allow me some leeway) So if Bergy had found this car with the hidden VINs on the cowl and behind the heater box in place BUT no VIN tag on the dash he'd be better off? </div></div> Yes..and yes... |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
"What Bergy has is a whole car with VIN on the dash"
Above is a quote from Tracker's post. Unless I missed something, this has not been proven. This is the kind of crap that gets me going. Why would you say this tracker unless you know something that the rest of us don't? |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COPO140</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"What Bergy has is a whole car with VIN on the dash"
Above is a quote from Tracker's post. Unless I missed something, this has not been proven. This is the kind of crap that gets me going. Why would you say this tracker unless you know something that the rest of us don't? </div></div> COPO140, I don't believe you can deny that Bergy has a whole car with a Yenko VIN on the dash, that's all I was saying. What is being debated is if he has THE whole car that goes WITH that VIN or not. I don't know if he does or if he doesn't anymore than you do. I was just trying to establish if a shell with a hidden VIN and no VIN tag was more legitimate or desirable than a shell with just a dash VIN tag. I was not referring to bergy's car as a whole "yenko" car, just a whole car. Please place panties on ironing board, apply steam. And, yes Jireh, it is time to get back to work. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
In today's day of people restamping and creating just about anything that could establish an extraordinary value, has there been any examples known as to where someone has restamped the hidden vins on a car yet? I would think that this could be replicated just as easily as block or part stamping could be.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
To answer this question:
"I was just trying to establish if a shell with a hidden VIN and no VIN tag was more legitimate or desirable than a shell with just a dash VIN tag." A body with orig vin stampings is the legitimate VIN. Simply installing a VIN tag to a car body that has different VIN stampings is a rebody. BTW the example you use is not necessarily the case in the car being discussed. A physical examination has yet to done so it is undetermined at this time. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Tracker states: "I was just trying to establish if a shell with a hidden VIN and no VIN tag was more legitimate or desirable than a shell with just a dash VIN tag." Yes, An original body shell with the original, unmolested confidential VIN and no VIN tag IS more desirable than a shell with just a VIN tag because of the C-VIN's permanancy. Thats why they were placed there in that particular spot in the first place-to avoid removal and addition and provide a birthmark, so to speak. And also YES and YES to answer your question in a previous post as SYC did........ Verification in this order: viewing of legally assigned in-hand title with owner present; untampered with public VIN tag; untampered with C-VINs ("C" means confidential VIN). A friend I know a few years back mentioned a Daytona in Canada that was down a big ravine or similar, where a crane was needed to get it out. He never followed it up I believe. Is this the same car? .............
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Exactly how many hidden vins are on a 1969 Camaro including the engine and transmission stamps?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Is this the same car? .............
Yes. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Exactly how many hidden VINs are there?
There are 2 C-VINs. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
In general,I believe 3,Engine/Trans./Firewall.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Actually 4 in total..
Engine and Trans plus the two Firewall stampings. Click here for clarification... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfq5kju627c [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
In my experiences, the car with the C-VIN trumps the car with the VIN plate.
In my earlier example regarding another Yenko Camaro, the car with the C-VINs trumped the car with the vin tag. At one time the car with the vin tag had a C-VIN stamped into the f/wall that didn't match. The prior owner was notified of the discrepancy, so he simply filled it in and painted it, then sold the car. That car with just the vin tag eventually had it removed by the PA State Police. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Perfect Pete, I understand!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Tracker1, what color is that Daytona supposed to be?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually 4 in total..
Engine and Trans plus the two Firewall stampings. Click here for clarification... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfq5kju627c [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] ~ Pete </div></div> So if a car had the Vin tag, and the original motor and transmission, but no hidden vins? What would that car be classified as then? The powerplant and transmission with the correct numbers along with the vin tag would (in my opinion) be worth way more than a car with 2 hidden vins, no vin plate, and no original drivetrain! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">So if a car had the Vin tag, and the original motor and transmission, but no hidden vins? What would that car be classified as then? The powerplant and transmission with the correct numbers along with the vin tag would (in my opinion) be worth way more than a car with 2 hidden vins, no vin plate, and no original drivetrain! </span></div></div> The value comparison being suggesting isn't clear cut enough and even if so would certainly be subject to opinions...especially here! It also may depend somewhat on where the person and such vehicles and/or parts of actually are and if title can be obtained there w/ the original #'s or not also being in possession of loose Vin tags in some places could quickly land a fella in the jailhouse!. Regardless of any scenarios, an unaltered 'vehicle' bearing the hidden Vins is THE vehicle the title belongs to, regardless of what engine/trans it may be sporting or tag if any is affixed!. Was the Canadian Daytona a green one?. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
[/quote]
So if a car had the Vin tag, and the original motor and transmission, but no hidden vins? What would that car be classified as then? The powerplant and transmission with the correct numbers along with the vin tag would (in my opinion) be worth way more than a car with 2 hidden vins, no vin plate, and no original drivetrain! [/quote] How can a original VIN tag, motor and trans. be original if they are not in the original car they were made with? |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: talwell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In today's day of people restamping and creating just about anything that could establish an extraordinary value, has there been any examples known as to where someone has restamped the hidden vins on a car yet? I would think that this could be replicated just as easily as block or part stamping could be. </div></div>
Yes it can be done very easily and there are cars out there that can fool the best of them. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
As far as how things 'can' happen in IL, the folks at the state police told me a few yrs back, they really only care about what numbers are on the frame or the hidden body numbers. They definitely know what they are doing and how to get to the numbers that matter. They have no issue taking a car with issues. What happens to it after they take it I do not know. The one example they told me they just got finished picking up was a restored 62 vette in Chicago where the title did not match the frame numbers. Car was a big dollar ride, new owner lost his new purchase.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The one example they told me they just got finished picking up was a restored 62 vette in Chicago where the title did not match the frame numbers. Car was a big dollar ride, new owner lost his new purchase. </div></div>
That makes no sense. The frame on a lot of early corvettes rotted out and has to be replaced during a restoration. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That makes no sense. The frame on a lot of early corvettes rotted out and has to be replaced during a restoration. </div></div>
As well as a lot of Chevelles. |
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