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-   -   russo and steel chop job camaro copo (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=98448)

Canada George 05-08-2008 09:22 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
O.K.
--- read it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif
--- thought about it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif
--- conclusion: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

real-muscle-1 09-08-2008 01:57 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
idiot!

Stefano 09-08-2008 04:09 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
On a good note. I think that the advise and ideas presented on this site have filtered down to some of the Auctions.

While at Russo and Steele in Monterey California, a Gorgeous Muscle car, which I was going to bid on, came across, the block. It had good owner history, paperwork and matching numbers.

The Auction announced that the car was a "rebody" and the bids were tendered accordingly. I didn't recall seeing that disclosure on any of the marketing material.

sYc 09-08-2008 04:12 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
Wow..cool to know that maybe our membership can make a postive impact on our hobby.

Les Quam 09-08-2008 04:13 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
Recently at a sports memorablia auction that took place in Chicago. The one where the Honus Wagner baseball card sold for 1.6 million. The FBI was serving subpoena's during the auction on the auction house. This sports memorablia auction house is the largest in the world. The FBI is reportedly investigating the auction house for artificially inflating the market on sports collector items. One aspect of the investigation according to the Chicago tribune report was the alleged use of phantom bidders by the auction house. The FBI had previously been investigating sports memorablia auction houses and the industry in general for rampant fraud and determined that 75% of the items sold in the industry were fake?

In my humble opinion the classic car auction houses will be next on the list for the feds to investigate. I have never understood how or why the auction houses came to the conclusion it was legal to "use all means necessary" to get the bidding near or to the bidders reserve via the use of phantom bidders. I imagine the owners have asked an attorney or had one review this practice to determine its validity? But I have never been able to figure out how this is not a fraudulent practice nor have any of the other attorneys I have asked?

I also think cars and their owners like the one mentioned on this thread would come under scrutiny given the vast amount of bogus or fake cars that get washed through these auctions. However this area seems to be more problematic given the complexity of making the actual determination of authenticity?

ddzapper 11-02-2008 01:19 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
I am brand new to this forum - this is my first post. I am currently looking for a 67-70 big block Chevelle and try to read as much as possible concerning these cars. My problem is that I am not an expert in this field - I am lucky enough to be able to finally afford one of these cars after raising a family and getting the kids out of the house. My take on any auction house is that if they are going to accept the huge commissions that come with these misrepresented cars - then they need to be the police of their own auction house. If a car is represented as COPO or ZL1 or whatever, then that car needs to be certified as such. The cost of this should originally be borne by the owner who wants to sell it as such. If this was done with every car that was sold, the cars would probably sell for more than enough money to cover that additional cost because the buyer knows that he is getting a "certified" car. Each seller would be required to do this before it could be sold as such. If he didn't want to do it - fine - let the market decide where the price should be. After several years, there would exist a large database of certified cars that would make the industry a lot safer to a rookie buyer like myself. This isn't an overnight fix, but it is sure better than what exists now. Yes, there would be some glitches, but everything can be solved if enough thought is put into it.

Charley Lillard 11-02-2008 03:43 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
Welcome to the site. You should post a wanted ad for what you are looking for. There are many here that come upon good cars and good advise.

ChevyThunder 11-02-2008 10:28 AM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
Last year at Monterey there was a 1974 Porsche RSR that sold for near 900K with comission. Some of us guys already suspected this car was a rebody and when it came out it started a fuss and eventually an independant authority inspected the car , concluded it was a rebody and the auction house refunded the all monies to the buyer and held the car until the seller wired both the seller and buyers commissions to them . They took the stand that it was the sellers obligation to represent their car properly and if they didn't that was their problem and that the auction house had performed and therfore earned their comission.

Cost the guy 170K to get his rebodied car back. In the Porsche world that 900K car just became worth about the sum of its parts .. about 250K

m22mike 11-02-2008 03:41 PM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
Hi David
Welcome, what part of the Buckeye State are you from ??

Mike https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

1railman 11-02-2008 04:26 PM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
There is a solution to this and no one has seized the obvious. All reputable certifiers ( a step above an appraiser) should be bonded. Of course this would not be a simple program and the guide book would be an inch thick. A large insurance company could back such a program and make sure certain steps were followed, no matter the car. Certifiers would have a limited field such as Duesenberg or COPO's. My guess would be there would only be a handful of certifiers in each specialty.

firstgenaddict 11-02-2008 08:50 PM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
That sounds like a good idea, there is no reason a program could not be designed around a premise like that. Cost feasibility is the main question though.

rpoz11 11-02-2008 11:24 PM

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have heard from several people on this car. It was apparently built years ago by a guy in Toronto named Frank Macri ? Macri sold it to PhilS years ago. RichP listed for sale on this site for PhilS a couple years ago and I believe Mark Bulaw said he thought this sounded like a car out of Canada that was a rebody and that Macri used a very nice Z28 to build it into the car we are discussing. Phil then pulled the cowl panel and found where the vin had been welded. He did not pull the fender and heater box to confirm the other hidden vin. He sold it to Pat Joiner and told him of the suspected rebody and priced it under 100K to reflect the rebody issue. Joiner then sold it to Corvette Mike's but apparently they say they were not told about the rebody issue. I was also contacted by someone that owned the Z28 back in the early 70's that this COPO was made from and he confirms what I was told about the resto. PhilS tried to contact Macri after he found out but Macri would not return calls and it had been a few years. If anyone involved would like to chime in and clarify the stuff I just posted, please do. I am passing on info that I believe to be pretty close but if anyone has closer firsthand info please chime in so we can put this one to bed.

Someone should check for traces of a 4 speed shift hole. I remember mention of this from before but don't remember the details.


If I am wrong on any of this I will quickly apologise but I think I am pretty close.
As for Drew floating vins by experts he might get some info but who is going to hang their necks out to taint a car if they don't know firsthand. I know I don't need that kind of stress. I get enough crap here on this site because I seem to be the catch-all during disputes.

[/ QUOTE ]

-------Per PhilS' reply:

"This is a little late but here goes. I bought this car in about '95 from Frank Macri of Toronto. I flew there and examined the car myself. Frank showed me pictures of supposedly this car during resto. Quarters were replaced, the decklid was sprung correctly for spoiler, a dated BE was present, correct leafs which had been heated and bent to lower the car, plate for exhaust hanger present, tunnel cut for auto and I think the nuts were there for the console, I think the firewall was for an auto also, the numbers were there on the cowl, wrong trans, wrong engine was a 2 bolt 512 which was vin stamped on the pad, carb was right, so was dist, intake, aircleaner unit and more. The trim tag looked right and was the correct info for this car. The resto was mediocre but it was a very rare car and could be bought for less than a resto at that time. I had another COPO needing resto but wanted one to enjoy at the time. Frank explained that the reason the quarters were replaced was because of damage related to drag racing and that the car was not rusty.
I finished my other COPO in about '03 and decided to sell the silver car. When Mark made me aware of the stories about this car I immediately took it off the market and tried to reach Frank Macri. I left messages with no response but finally caught him one day. He claimed that he was not the Frank Macri I was looking for and that he knew nothing of any Camaro. Maybe there are two Frank Macris in Toronto. At that point I decided to just sell the car as a car with stories and that is how I represented it. It was priced accordingly.
I don't think that it has been proved that this car is a rebody. It may very well be but more investigation is needed. Only Frank Macri knows all the truth and if any real wrong has been done it was done by him.

Thanks

Phil Silva 972-345-9604

PS If you know Frank please give him my number, I'd really like to talk to him.

Edited by PhilS (Sun May 04 2008 09:40 AM)"



and

-------this one I am quoting above from Charley...

It appears that this should be the correct form of disclosure.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif
Doing a backtracing of the history known to this VIN/CAR and provide the necessary knowledge relevant to its history.

Someone changed this car around, for whatever reason...whomever that person is, could they please stand up and be accounted for?!!!

It seems to me that that person who ACTUALLY changed things pertaining to this issue should rectify this situation and put a final disclosure on it once and for all.

I recall looking at the imagery of this car I believe was on Corvette Mike's website.

DID Mike ever have any knowledge or background on this car prior to acquiring it???

As for the current owner, will you please help this topic and car out by doing the good work of discovery and report the ACTUAL results of what in question here?!!!

Sounds like a good few of you have touched on an Idea that comes to mind.

Make up a good worksheet of documents to state and verify for every car sold.

Could be that the auction houses could do the same and handout those results so nothing is ever hiddden.

Just my thoughts...
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif


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